Kata

[Cthulhu]

Since we've been talking kata in the other thread...

Has anyone trained in more than one style of karate and compared/analyzed/dissected the differences in the kata (of the same name)?

I haven't trained formally in Shotokan or TKD, but I know the first two Pinan kata (the guy I learned them from prefers the Okinawan name to the Korean names) from Chung Do Kwan TKD, which are the first two Heian kata in Shotokan, which I also know. The differences are minor, but they are there. However, at least for these two kata, I don't think the differences seriously affect the bunkai of the kata.

In addition to this, I know that Wado ryu versions of the Pinan kata contain movements different from both the TKD and Shotokan versions. With the differences in philosophy between Wado ryu and Shotokan, which I believe come primarily from Otsuka's involvement with jujutsu, I'm curious as to how the bunkai are different.

Does anyone know if there is a significant philosophical/conceptual difference in Shotokan and Shorin ryu (Matsubayashi)? If so, how does it affect the practice of the Heian/Pinan kata in the two styles?

Damn. I'm nosey, ain't I?

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Has anyone trained in more than one style of karate and compared/analyzed/dissected the differences in the kata (of the same name)?

I recall having this discussion on RMA (or more likely RMA-MOD) recently w.r.t. Goju and Uechi versions of Sanchin kata. They were quite different, I thought. But all the Uechi kata are softer.

 

[Mark Kline]

The Bunkai of the Kata is determined by what the goal of the practitioner is. I mean that if you want think that with a low block you are blocking a kick, then so be it. You will have to have your arm set in a cast, if your attacker has not kicked your head in as you writhe in pain on the floor with a fractured arm.

Low block as a basic interpretation is an arm break...to your attacker. It is an arm bar where you rub the golgis tendon reflex nerve or TW 11. It will release the elbow with a rub.

There may be bunkai related differences in the same kata in different styles depending on the level of knowledge of the practitioner or Instructor. One style may see the Low Block as an arm break and another style may interpret the move as a hammer fist to GB20 (greater occipital nerve), etc.

Hope this helps to answer your question.

thanks!

Mark

www.markklineskarate.com
www.LEARNPRESSUREPOINTS.com

 

[Cthulhu]

I think a comparison of the bunkai of Shotokan and Wado ryu karate would be very interesting, since they could be considered to have opposite philosophies. I don't know if we've gotten any Wado ryu people here yet.

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Interesting thread on whether the practice of kata is necessary for an art to be called karate at another web board.

Thus, if one came from traditional Karate roots, but no longer practices kata, I don't think you're being correct using the title Karate.

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador
Interesting thread on whether the practice of kata is necessary for an art to be called karate at another web board.

I'd tend to agree with that quote. In traditional karate, the system is primarily passed on through the kata. By not practicing and teaching the kata, you aren't preserving the system. Therefore, call it something else.

Cthulhu

 

[tshadowchaser]

Over the years I studied five diffrent systems that used Pinain or heian karta All had small diffrences in they movements . From the way a open block was delivered to makeing a upward movement of the forarm a block against a over head strike or a forarm blow to the neck. The foot wook was almost always identical but hand placemen and interpatation differed.

 

[Mark Kline]

Do you think it is possible that the reason for the differing hand placement had to deal with the fact that these movements were not blocks and actual strikes to pressure points of the body? The reason for the different hand placement dealt directly with the point or points that were being attacked.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Yes and no.I belive some could have been discuised pressure point strikes ( those being explained to higher ranking students while beginners only learned them as blocks.
Some others where diffrent because of the movement (shaolin kempo) uses one kata (I think its pinan 3) to immatate the movement of a crane's wings. Its all in the placement of the hand and hand angles.

 

[Mark Kline]

? for you to ponder. Would the St. Louis Rams or NE Patriots (regardless of your knowledge of football, I just used this because it is an example that will be played out shortly) take the time to design plays that they would never use? Would they 1 take the time to first design these plays, and then 2 make the team practice them over and over again, reinforcing the fact that they are never going to use them in a million years?

I believe that you are correct in saying that maybe the higher ranks knew things that the lower ranks did not or could not grasp at a beginning level. I also believe that all moves in all katas / forms are designed for a purpose, none of which is to solely emulate any animal. The movements of white crane, for example emulate the crane spreading it's wings. This is done to facilitate body movement in response to certain attacks, which the kata usually gives a hint to what that is, and tell you how to counter.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Mark Kline
? for you to ponder. Would the St. Louis Rams or NE Patriots (regardless of your knowledge of football, I just used this because it is an example that will be played out shortly) take the time to design plays that they would never use? Would they 1 take the time to first design these plays, and then 2 make the team practice them over and over again, reinforcing the fact that they are never going to use them in a million years?

I believe that you are correct in saying that maybe the higher ranks knew things that the lower ranks did not or could not grasp at a beginning level. I also believe that all moves in all katas / forms are designed for a purpose, none of which is to solely emulate any animal. The movements of white crane, for example emulate the crane spreading it's wings. This is done to facilitate body movement in response to certain attacks, which the kata usually gives a hint to what that is, and tell you how to counter.

I tend to agree with this analogy; yet i would futher consider the kata/form being slowed to the point of a smooth tai chi gong like flow! This will expose more of the motion options for countering as blocking, parrying, and striking respectively! The crane's wing example is an excellent choice. With this motion, one can see revealed the counter blocking, parrying and striking motions. As the crane slowly spreads it's wings, the double, delayed double and single wing blocking motions are seen! Notice the exposure of the elbows as the wings spread. This examination reveals the double, delayed double, single, upward and downward elbow counter striking motions. The wings spreading can transform into flapping motions. These flapping motions again reveal yet another variation of the elbow's reverse counter striking abilities. Spreading the crane's wings to the frontal position exposes the wing's striking abilities to abdominal, solar plexus and facial area's of the body! So, as the crane slowly spreads it's wings and the practitioner's controlled breathing becomes more evident and upper body flowing becomes more skillful, the revelation of rolling back, bumping, following, adhereing, rooting, dodging and wing flying etc, become part of the stylist's arsenal of angled counter-attacking conceptual methods of blocking analogies! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[tshadowchaser]

I like th idae of slowing down the movment in a dorm (from time to time).When a stdent first learns a form I have them do it slowly without powr or speed a few times (one to 5 moves repeated over and over then the next group,etc.) Untilthey have an idea where they are going and what to do next. Then I have them put in the power and speed.
At verious times I have them do the form by the numbers ( this is a great way to correct the small flaws)
At black belt level I have the student break down the form then I make them see some of the other possible ways a technique may have been intended to be used. Eyes get wide at times when one has been thought of a strike or block in only one way then is shown a completly diffrent concept to the technique
Folks I once again tell you I have no spell check capabilitis on webtv and I spell like crap. Sorry
Shadow

 

[arnisador]

Anyone know of links to online demos of karate kata?

 

[Cthulhu]

Here are some:

http://www.uechi-ryu-karate.com/kata/duane_kata.html

http://www.budostudienkreis.de/Video/VidUbers.htm (German language site)

http://www.shorinryu.dk/html/indexe.htm (Click on 'kata' link in left frame)

http://ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/kata.html

:cheers:

Cthulhu

 

[arnisador]

Thanks Cthulhu! I finally got around to checking these out.

 

[GojuBujin]

I've trained in Kyokushin and Shotoakan, and have trained in Goju the past 5yrs. I have learned the Pinan / Heian Katas. the Shotokan versions and Kyokushin versions. they were farily similar. But recently My iiado Sensei who is also very knowledgable of Shurite and Tomarite systems showed me Pinan Shodan, I recognized it as Pinan but had no idea it was the first one. It really got CHANGED alot from its more orignal Shuri te form to the modern Shotokan and Kyokushin version. Made me a little ill to think it had been that altered. It had been altered so much it was uncrecognizable.

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[arnisador]

Some more online kata videos here.

 

[tigerstorm]

Master Bendell sir,
You are correct in Pinan 3, it does have cranes wings. The Bunkai, and you know where my Instruction comes from but in my own words the Bunkai of kata or in this case the Pinan is based solely on the students character. I use the word character because students develop there own attitudes, beliefs and ways of doing things. One student may do these cranes wings as blocks while another may see them as striking. I like the idea of students having what I call "situation analysis", this means simply that what you see is what you get. In kata sense, if you see yourself being attacked you need to defend against the attack or attack before the opponents attack reaches you. I believe that you used the words fighting art, for Sikaran, and it is, as should be any martial art. However, a students own mind decides in which direction his Bunkai will go. You can teach that your first kata is done just so, but in all reality a student will only see pieces of things the same as you, as they develop they see with there own eyes. Humbly I hope I have not said this to sound disagreeing, just putting in my cent( Id give you two but Im broke).
Honored sir, Tigerstorm

 

[tshadowchaser]

Tigerstorm,
Just to be picky it's Bedell. Most people misprononce it, but your spelling is one of the related ones I found in geneology searches.
Last night a couple of students where working on a form after class, while I did some office stuff. I looked out to see one of them explaining a certin move as a block followed by a grab and strike to the head. No problem with that it's what happends when the move is used agianst a right hand punch.
Howevere if the punch is a left handed one the move becomes a block, elbow hyperextention, arm roll (with wrist lock) and a blow to either: 1> futher dislocate elbow and shoulder or 2> a blow to he head,neck or a nerve center located near the shoulder blade.
What a defference changing which hand was being defended against. The students automaticly figured it was a right hand punch. I wonder if this is because most of us are right handed?
Shadow :asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

Tigerstorm,
In full respect the people on the forum knowme as tshadowchaser or just shadow please address me as such on this forum. No disrespect will be seen, I leave my rank on the other side of the computer board.
Im sure your instructor will find no fault with this request.
Just as my students and your and your instructors have been asked to call me "Leopard" the same name my instructor and all people in my system do. I am just plain shadow here.
Actualy sometimes I should be known as "that forgetful old fart" but thats probably to much to ask you to spell out each time
Shadow