Bunkai discussion (no applications)

[Sensei Mike]

RyuShiKan stated:
Maybe you should stick with one dojo instead of hopping around between them. You know the story about chasing rabbits

Whatever could you mean by this statement? Would you care to elaborate? I would love to hear your views on this subject.

 

[RyuShiKan]

What do you think I mean?

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by chufeng

RyuShiKan wrote:

"So have I come full "circle"?"

In the health care field, we say a perfect circle is one who has had a hemorrhoidectomy...do you still want an answer to your question?

So would that make him a perfect a**hole?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Love your work Robert. Hehe
--Dave:rofl:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Does any one teach these kata's, and what order do you teach kata's (example Naihanchi kata's followed by Pinan kata's etc.)
Bob :asian:

At our school, we learn the Taikyoku katas 1, 2 & 3, before we learn other katas.The Pinan katas are learnt after black belt, as is Bassai Dai. Naihanchi is learnt around green belt.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb


At our school, we learn the Taikyoku katas 1, 2 & 3, before we learn other katas.The Pinan katas are learnt after black belt, as is Bassai Dai. Naihanchi is learnt around green belt.

--Dave

:asian:

From what I have seen most Shorin Ryu school start with the Taikyoku katas.

We start with the Naihanchis then Seisan then the Pinans......so Pinan Shodan is actually the 4th or 5th kata we learn.......depends on the teacher really.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by D.Cobb




So would that make him a perfect a**hole?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Love your work Robert. Hehe
--Dave:rofl:

It would seem so..............nice to be perfect at something anyway

 

[Sensei Mike]

RyuShiKan,

You have been such a terrific contributor to this forum, and so responsive to answering questions.

I hope you can find the time to answer my request for clarification on Pinan Nidan, 7 posts above. It's really a very simple question.

Just a reminder:

RyuShiKan stated:
Thinking techniques from the kata are sequential like the moves in the kata is not wrong.........in fact in some cases it is correct........but not in many cases.

Sensei Mike requested clarification:
Do you know of cases in the Pinans where the sequential moves are "not correct".

RyuShiKan responded:
The 3 upper blocks of Pinan Nidan...........the last 2 are connected the first one is not

Does this mean there are no useful interpretations to the entire forward sequence?

Thanks so much for your response.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

There's this thread in the grappling section "best takedowns" This guy ACE said kata is only good in the dojo but not for the street. Figure a couple of you may want to respone if you like. I have already.
Bob :asian:

 

[chufeng]

Mike,

I can't speak for RyuShiKan...but, I can say that in our system (YiLiQuan) the "obvious" (read basic) techniques are included in sequence...BUT, the real MEAT of the movements found in the forms is hidden.

If you look at the basic breakdown of some of the movements in our first set, the series of movements only works if the supposed attacker is moving backwards, away from you, in a straight line. The only place I see that kind of movement is at a bad tournament.

However, the real applications are numerous and are only fragments of the series of movements. I suspect the Okinawan forms are similar in nature.

As I read RyuShiKan's posts, I think that is what he is trying to point out...look beyond the obvious, take the form apart and try each of its pieces forwards, backwards, and from many angles. you may find one part from the form fits together nicely with another part of the form...

I am not suggesting that you change anything...the form is simply a reference book for you to come back to and it was put together a certain way for good reasons.

I hope this helps.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Does any one teach these kata's, and what order do you teach kata's (example Naihanchi kata's followed by Pinan kata's etc.)
Bob :asian:

Hi Bob....at my school we are teaching Naihanchi Shodan first, then Pinan Shodan, and we alternate between the two until black belt. Then we teach Gankaku.

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike



Does this mean there are no useful interpretations to the entire forward sequence?

Did I say there weren't any?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng


As I read RyuShiKan's posts, I think that is what he is trying to point out...look beyond the obvious, take the form apart and try each of its pieces forwards, backwards, and from many angles. you may find one part from the form fits together nicely with another part of the form...

I am not suggesting that you change anything...the form is simply a reference book for you to come back to and it was put together a certain way for good reasons.

Yup...........that is what I was saying.

 

[Kong]

I`m not too familiar with all the different styles of Karate, but I used too train Wado Ryu when I was younger. We started with the Pinans then Kushanku, Naifanchi, Seishan and then Chinto.

The Pinan katas are learnt after black belt

The Pinans always seemed kind of basic to me, is it common in other styles of Karate (then WR) to teach them as late into the curriculum?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Kempojujutsu,

You probably know some of the history on this. Prior to Itosu introducing the Pinan, it was common for beginners to practice Naihanchi Shodan.

Yes and No.
It was only common for them to practice it if it was part of there style.
However, prior to Itosu most people only had 1 or 2 kata as their style, (Motobu Choki-Ryukyu Karate Kenpo Jutsu) which is why many people now think that the 3 Naihanchi kata were derived/engineered from a single kata or someone invented 2 and 3 later.....possibly Itosu.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Funakoshi also divides his kata into two groups, Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu, and states that from the Shorin Ryu, a beginner should start with Taikyoku Shodan, Nidan and Sandan, (his kata) and follow these with the Heian (Pinan) ... From the Shorei Ryu he says to begin with the three Tekki (Naihanchi).

It has been discussed before but given the information from Motobu's book that it was common to know only 1 or 2 kata it is logical to state that out of the old kata there is no such thing as a "beginners" kata, and that they are ALL advanced.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

Bishop's text, Okinawan Karate, lists kata that are taught at each of the many schools he surveyed, and the lists seemed to indicate the order in which they are generally taught, as Naihanchi and Pinans are at the beginning of many lists.

Again, See above about beginners kata.
We teach Naihanchis first since they are some of the most difficult to fully understand and therefore take more time to discover.

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

It is my opinion. that some Shotokan dojos that are more tournament oriented, are more likely to introduce a kata like Bassai Dai, before introducing Tekki Sandan.

At the Shotokan and JKA honbu dojo I have been to here the general consensus is that Naihanchi (Tekki) kata are beginners kata and because they are so short and lack the "flash" and crowd pleasing effect of other kata they are not really practiced that much.
Which is a shame since they have such a treasure chest of technique.................

 

[Sensei Mike]

RyuShiKan,

RyuShiKan stated: Yup...........that is what I was saying.

Wow, impressive. You have actually responsed, after not one, but two requests for clarification. I am surprised, but not much. Still there is no clarification, just a non-answer, an obvious evasion.

So let's try this yet again. I will tell you what you said, and ask again, and ask for further clarification, knowing that the cat seems to have your tongue.
First you stated:

RyuShiKan stated: As my teacher has explained to many different martial arts people from various styles the kata are just like the alphabet. Just as ABCDEF......doesn't spell anything and has no meaning, kata too has no meaning if you think of the moves as merely ABCDEF or as I have stated above first A technique then B technique and so on.

I had a lengthy reply which included the following:

Sensei Mike stated: I have recently completed a lengthy description of ABCDEFGHI as it applies to Naihanchi shodan. (Or some would argue BCDEFGHIJ, as I left off the beginning.)

Your reply responded to 13 statements I made in that post but studiously avoided responding to this key issue I raised.
But you did come back to this point later in this new thread.

RyuShiKan stated: Thinking techniques from the kata are sequential like the moves in the kata is not wrong.........in fact in some cases it is correct........but not in many cases. It depends on the kata and which move in the kata you are doing. Referring back to the Alphabet analogy from the other thread. Doing movements/techniques in sequential order is OK........example. ABCDEFGHIJ. Those are the basic building blocks for words. But why limit yourself to the Dick & Jane books like "See spot run." when you can expand on it to more advanced levels of thought and learning like "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in vain" - Nietzsche.

I referred to the "in some cases it is correct but not in many cases" and requested clarification:

Sensei Mike stated: Tough point to argue, since you don't say what kata you are referring to. How about the Pinans. Do you know of cases in the Pinans where the sequential moves are "not correct". (My interpretation is that "not correct" means the sequential movements do not provide a meaningful, useful application.)
btw, your statement above appears to me to be an ever-so-slight change from an earlier post you made.

And of course you responded:

RyuShiKan stated: The 3 upper blocks of Pinan Nidan...........the last 2 are connected the first one is not.

To which I asked for clarification:

Sensei Mike stated: Now, are you saying, the first block(s) are not connected to the following two, in your system? Or are you saying that these two parts of the third direction are unconnected, in every system? This would mean that there simply could be no useful application that can bring the entire directional sequence together as a cohesive whole? (Or as part of a perhaps larger cohesive whole.)

Your next 3 posts to the thread omitted a clarification so I asked again, this time with a question:

Sensei Mike stated: Does this mean there are no useful interpretations to the entire forward sequence?

To which you gave the non-answer reply.

RyuShiKan stated: Did I say there weren't any?

So I am batting 0 for 2 in getting a clarification from you.

Following is my third request for clarification regarding your vague statements. These statements are unclear. You have complained several times about the Internet being a poor medium for discussion. How about a little clarification on your following statements. What do you mean when you say "many cases" below, what do you mean when you say "the last two are connected, the first two are not"

RyuShiKan stated: sequential like the moves in the kata is not wrong.........in fact in some cases it is correct........but not in many cases.
RyuShiKan stated:The 3 upper blocks of Pinan Nidan...........the last 2 are connected the first one is not.

Do I expect an answer from you on this subject. Of course not. At least not a meaninful one. You, the distinguished RyuShiKan, first, last and only foreigner allowed to teach at the Nippon Budokan, you who have repeatedly browbeat numerous posters on this "friendly" forum, will likely go on simply ducking the question. All your years of learning martial arts and you can't answer a simple request for clarification of YOUR statements.

Rather, if do eventually choose to lower yourself to respond at all, you will likely wait until a positive contributor like Chufeng makes a post, trying to help me to better understand what you meant. Then you will have the opportunity to respond to that post with another non-response such as the one you just made:

RyuShiKan stated: Yup...........that is what I was saying.

I don't expect a clarification from you. I do expect you to be consistent and duck this question again and again. Why you choose to duck requests for clarification on YOUR statements, is anyone's guess. My guess is that while you have made it abundantly obvious that you revel in dishing it out, it seems just as abundantly clear that you just can't take it. Your silence is deafening.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Sensei Mike

RyuShiKan,


I don't expect a clarification from you. I do expect you to be consistent and duck this question again and again. Why you choose to duck requests for clarification on YOUR statements, is anyone's guess. My guess is that while you have made it abundantly obvious that you revel in dishing it out, it seems just as abundantly clear that you just can't take it. Your silence is deafening.

Well, you are obviously angry about something.

Just because I don't answer doesn't mean I don't have an answer.

Chufeng, Kempojujtsu and others actually read what other people post and obviously reflect upon what they have read and respond accordingly without the "knee-jerk" troglodyte" type answers I have been reading from you.
In case you haven't noticed the reason why I don't answer all your questions is, to be totally blunt, you have a bad attitude.
Having said that, I am surprised that I have answered any of questions after the snide remarks and left handed compliments you keep pumping out.........

 

[chufeng]

Methinks you have a chip on your shoulder, Mike.

Your latest post is clearly antagonistic...

My teacher used to throw out one line clues during class to see who was paying attention and who would explore the ideas. He didn't expound at length about what he meant...he expected the student to do the work necessary to arrive at an understanding. Example: "Jiu Bu Quan is really a breathing exercise."

Our Jiu Bu Quan is a stepping form...it teaches all of the stepping actions and all of the base stances from which we execute technique...How is it a breathing exercise? How many students actually explored that idea? Maybe ten or so...and all of them have been promoted to senior levels over the years...Sifu dropped pearls like that about every fourth class...95% of the class was content to come and train for 90 minutes 3 times a week...the other 5% went home and drilled and explored and studied the little pearls that were offered...

I think RyuShiKan has done the same thing throughout this and other threads...I don't think you are giving him a fair assessment.
He doesn't OWE anybody here an explanation about anything... he is not your sensei so stop acting like he has to spoon feed you stuff...he stated his own students have to EARN what they learn. Why, then, does he owe you or anyone else MORE than his own students get?

Go back and re-explore the pearls that he has provided...work on them a little and maybe you'll discover more bunkai (even better than what you have discovered on your own up to this point).

Good training to you...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

..................I think that is what he is trying to point out...look beyond the obvious, take the form apart and try each of its pieces forwards, backwards, and from many angles. you may find one part from the form fits together nicely with another part of the form...

Also, I have noticed that many modern day martial arts people are under the false impression that they needn't think for themselves and their teachers should just spoon feed them the answers to all their questions. Maybe it is because they figure they want their moneys worth or maybe they don't know any other way.

What happens if that persons teacher dies........or doesn't know the answer............what then?
Should they just give up?

I think this is somewhat of a problem that has restricted the growth and innovation in MA recently. Why should I wait for my teacher to answer the questions I have about bunkai? Why can't I just work on them myself and then ask him if it is right or wrong?
My teacher often didn't give direct answers to questions about bunkai and so on, we were made to think about it and if possible find the answer for ourselves, or possibly later he would tell us.

This is actually a good, but often frustrating way to learn.
What he was teaching us was how to learn, as well as finding out what kind of character we had.
If a student had good character he got to learn more, if the student had a bad character he was often not given much information..................for good reasons.

Me personally, I don't want "cookie cutter" students that are cranked out by the score and get their "money's worth". I would rather have a few quality students that know how to learn and therefore enrich the art.

You can't mass produce a Rembrandt or Picaso and expect it to have the same value as the original.........

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

Go back and re-explore the pearls that he has provided........

Thanks, but I would hardly call anything I have posted "pearls" (meaning something of great value) becasue I never discuss really important things like technique and so on in-depth over the Internet. I really only discuss the things I think are important, or to borrow your word, "pearls" to close friends and students that I like.

 

[chufeng]

The link to Naihanchi was a pearl...

Mayhaps you posted that in a moment of weakness

:asian:
chufeng