Budoiko Ryu & Ninjutsu history (was Frauds,Fakes,Conman,Scam artists)
- Thread starter HeisaaReborn
- Start date
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Heisaa really I wish you and your husband all the best and that your training goes very well for you.
The crux of what people are interested here is......
Who did your husband learn from?
You claim that he learned from a Japanese Sensei but with out a name no one knows who he is or what his lineage is and that brings up all kinds of issues. (particularly in the world of Ninjutsu) Saying less or not naming names but claiming linkage does not go over well with practitioner's from the Japanese systems. That was one of the points of Don's article by the way. That or not proving who you trained with.
Now in the whole scheme of this I really do not care. Usually I stay completely out of these things as it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
However if there is a misunderstanding and your husbands instructor's name is or was a former student of Takamatsu then that would change things. (I believe you intimated that above)
In the end as Brian said earlier I wish you guy's the best and hope that your training goes well and that you continue to improve. Really to me the lineage is over all unimportant. (it simply does not affect me) However to quite a few people out there this is very, very important.
Take care,
The crux of what people are interested here is......
Who did your husband learn from?
You claim that he learned from a Japanese Sensei but with out a name no one knows who he is or what his lineage is and that brings up all kinds of issues. (particularly in the world of Ninjutsu) Saying less or not naming names but claiming linkage does not go over well with practitioner's from the Japanese systems. That was one of the points of Don's article by the way. That or not proving who you trained with.
Now in the whole scheme of this I really do not care. Usually I stay completely out of these things as it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
In the end as Brian said earlier I wish you guy's the best and hope that your training goes well and that you continue to improve. Really to me the lineage is over all unimportant. (it simply does not affect me) However to quite a few people out there this is very, very important.
Take care,
Not only that, but her claims his traning predate the bujinkan and the ninja boom of the 80's and come from a time when Ninjutsu was still shrouded in secrecy have me curious as well...
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Just a few little points.
(Originally posted by Heisaa)
So I did some homework since you are right. I have not given enough resources to argue some of my points. One point that was made earlier by someone here was that I had said that the Ninja started off as peasants and farmers and were later joined by defunct or defecting Samurai. This was a point of contention. This is from the website of a Bujinkan 15th Dan, http://www.pabujinkanbarndojo.com/Ninjutsu/History.asp, named Ed Martin.
Quote:
In the main Ninjutsu was the inevitable reaction to the attempts of Japan's nobility to create a working national government. This led to some very nasty wars among the nobility over who lead the emerging government and what today would be considered "police actions" against those content with the status quo. This has happened in most countries at one time or another but in Japan events took the road less traveled, creating a unique history that starts in the Koga and Iga regions of central Japan.
Thinly populated, mountainous (which favors the defense) and distant from the major cultural centers the Iga and Koga regions were populated by clans of relatively independent peasants, mystics seeking enlightenment, and various soldiers, (some from as far away from China) who were on the wrong side of the last war.
As you may expect, Ed, or Papa-san, as he is affectionately known, is well known in Bujinkan circles. In this passage, Ed appears to be making a general statement about the demographic breakup of the two areas, Iga and Koga. So are you showing this to support my comments, or are you reading into the fact that Ed mentions peasants as support for yours? I'm just not sure how you wanted this read.
Also another point of contention someone told me that Ninjutsu was never illegalized. Well same website (which by the way was the second one I looked at)
Quote:
But in the end the isolation and disunity condemned them to defeat. By the 17th century an increasingly united Japan allowed an increasingly unified nobility to act decisively. The Princes declared the knowing of Ninjutsu, or knowing anyone trained in Ninjutsu a capital offense. Bureaucrats opined there could be no pardon or quarter was given. Better innocent deaths than a live Ninja. By the early 18th century the hunt was in full force. Whole villages were destroyed as clans and Ryu were hunted into extinction. By end of the 18th century Ninjutsu was broken as a political and cultural force.
At this moment of victory Japan's leaders stopped the persecution of the Ninja. After initially shutting out the west, Japan's elites chose to embrace modernization. Industrializing the nation became job one. As the social and cultural fabric of Japan morphed from feudal to modern Ninjutsu and it practitioners began appearing as quaint relics of an earlier era. Since they no longer mattered they were no longer hunted. Some even questioned if they had ever existed at all.
As stated, Ed is well known and very well respected, however I would question his history here myself. The dates are out by a century or two, as the early 18th Century was nearly 100 years into the Tokugawa Shogunate, and it was the Tokugawas who most effectively utilised the ninja as metsuke (spies, literally "eyes for the family"), starting with Hattori Hanzo and his Kami Hattori Gumi. The offences against ninja and those associated, or believed associated, were individual crusades by persons such as Oda Nobunaga (who was assasinated in the mid-late 16th Century... about 1568 if memory serves).
And while you are right CP the Samurai were not PAID to do it excuse me I did misspeak there - the Samurai were probably the ones doing most of the enforcing if we look at the period of history.
However this statement is a major point of contention among bujinkan and many Ryus or Ryuhas or Clans however you may refer to them.
Little correction: Ryu means school, style, system, or flow. The term for "clan" would be "gumi", as in Kami Hattori Gumi.
Quote:
After finding Toshitsugu Takamatsu he began training as Takamatsu's only student and after 15 years was recognized by Takamatsu as the only other individual on earth fully trained in the art of Ninjutsu.
Yeah, I freely admit that this is a hard thing to explain. It comes down to emphasis, really. Takamatsu was no longer taking new students when Ueno Takashi introduced the young Hatsumi to him, but Takamatsu made an exception for Hatsumi, taking him on as his last student. This has sometimes been poorly translated as "only" student, but should more accurately be "primary", or "main" student. As for "the only other individual...", honestly, without being there and seeing not only what Hatsumi was taught, but what each and every other student of Takamatsu was taught, we have to take word as it is presented. But we are of course free to have our own feelings and beliefs about such stories. I would say that Takamatsu taught all the techniques of the arts such as Togakure Ryu to others, but the Kuden and Okuden teachings may have been reserved for the next Soke, as was (and is) very much the norm. Unless you are the next Soke, don't expect to see everything.
This may be a case that the victor gets to write the history books. Somehow I doubt though that a warrior who had killed more men by the time he was 20 to take Menyko for all 9 Ryus was quite interested in stopping along the way and passing out certificates.
It also does not mean that there were not others that were not taught most of the other Ryus or concentrations in the other Ryus.
These are just a couple of things I will continue researching and come back with more.
Please do, and we will do our best to continue in this manner.
(Originally posted by Heisaa)
So I did some homework since you are right. I have not given enough resources to argue some of my points. One point that was made earlier by someone here was that I had said that the Ninja started off as peasants and farmers and were later joined by defunct or defecting Samurai. This was a point of contention. This is from the website of a Bujinkan 15th Dan, http://www.pabujinkanbarndojo.com/Ninjutsu/History.asp, named Ed Martin.
Quote:
In the main Ninjutsu was the inevitable reaction to the attempts of Japan's nobility to create a working national government. This led to some very nasty wars among the nobility over who lead the emerging government and what today would be considered "police actions" against those content with the status quo. This has happened in most countries at one time or another but in Japan events took the road less traveled, creating a unique history that starts in the Koga and Iga regions of central Japan.
Thinly populated, mountainous (which favors the defense) and distant from the major cultural centers the Iga and Koga regions were populated by clans of relatively independent peasants, mystics seeking enlightenment, and various soldiers, (some from as far away from China) who were on the wrong side of the last war.
As you may expect, Ed, or Papa-san, as he is affectionately known, is well known in Bujinkan circles. In this passage, Ed appears to be making a general statement about the demographic breakup of the two areas, Iga and Koga. So are you showing this to support my comments, or are you reading into the fact that Ed mentions peasants as support for yours? I'm just not sure how you wanted this read.
Also another point of contention someone told me that Ninjutsu was never illegalized. Well same website (which by the way was the second one I looked at)
Quote:
But in the end the isolation and disunity condemned them to defeat. By the 17th century an increasingly united Japan allowed an increasingly unified nobility to act decisively. The Princes declared the knowing of Ninjutsu, or knowing anyone trained in Ninjutsu a capital offense. Bureaucrats opined there could be no pardon or quarter was given. Better innocent deaths than a live Ninja. By the early 18th century the hunt was in full force. Whole villages were destroyed as clans and Ryu were hunted into extinction. By end of the 18th century Ninjutsu was broken as a political and cultural force.
At this moment of victory Japan's leaders stopped the persecution of the Ninja. After initially shutting out the west, Japan's elites chose to embrace modernization. Industrializing the nation became job one. As the social and cultural fabric of Japan morphed from feudal to modern Ninjutsu and it practitioners began appearing as quaint relics of an earlier era. Since they no longer mattered they were no longer hunted. Some even questioned if they had ever existed at all.
As stated, Ed is well known and very well respected, however I would question his history here myself. The dates are out by a century or two, as the early 18th Century was nearly 100 years into the Tokugawa Shogunate, and it was the Tokugawas who most effectively utilised the ninja as metsuke (spies, literally "eyes for the family"), starting with Hattori Hanzo and his Kami Hattori Gumi. The offences against ninja and those associated, or believed associated, were individual crusades by persons such as Oda Nobunaga (who was assasinated in the mid-late 16th Century... about 1568 if memory serves).
And while you are right CP the Samurai were not PAID to do it excuse me I did misspeak there - the Samurai were probably the ones doing most of the enforcing if we look at the period of history.
However this statement is a major point of contention among bujinkan and many Ryus or Ryuhas or Clans however you may refer to them.
Little correction: Ryu means school, style, system, or flow. The term for "clan" would be "gumi", as in Kami Hattori Gumi.
Quote:
After finding Toshitsugu Takamatsu he began training as Takamatsu's only student and after 15 years was recognized by Takamatsu as the only other individual on earth fully trained in the art of Ninjutsu.
Yeah, I freely admit that this is a hard thing to explain. It comes down to emphasis, really. Takamatsu was no longer taking new students when Ueno Takashi introduced the young Hatsumi to him, but Takamatsu made an exception for Hatsumi, taking him on as his last student. This has sometimes been poorly translated as "only" student, but should more accurately be "primary", or "main" student. As for "the only other individual...", honestly, without being there and seeing not only what Hatsumi was taught, but what each and every other student of Takamatsu was taught, we have to take word as it is presented. But we are of course free to have our own feelings and beliefs about such stories. I would say that Takamatsu taught all the techniques of the arts such as Togakure Ryu to others, but the Kuden and Okuden teachings may have been reserved for the next Soke, as was (and is) very much the norm. Unless you are the next Soke, don't expect to see everything.
This may be a case that the victor gets to write the history books. Somehow I doubt though that a warrior who had killed more men by the time he was 20 to take Menyko for all 9 Ryus was quite interested in stopping along the way and passing out certificates.
It also does not mean that there were not others that were not taught most of the other Ryus or concentrations in the other Ryus.
These are just a couple of things I will continue researching and come back with more.
Please do, and we will do our best to continue in this manner.
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
Thank you very much - I will start this thread I think I saw the correct forum I just have to careful because we are only ALLOWED to talk very superficially - a lot of those detainees are still in long term confinement.
Thank you,
Heisaa
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
Heisaa really I wish you and your husband all the best and that your training goes very well for you.
The crux of what people are interested here is......
Who did your husband learn from?
You claim that he learned from a Japanese Sensei but with out a name no one knows who he is or what his lineage is and that brings up all kinds of issues. (particularly in the world of Ninjutsu) Saying less or not naming names but claiming linkage does not go over well with practitioner's from the Japanese systems. That was one of the points of Don's article by the way. That or not proving who you trained with.
Now in the whole scheme of this I really do not care. Usually I stay completely out of these things as it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.However if there is a misunderstanding and your husbands instructor's name is or was a former student of Takamatsu then that would change things. (I believe you intimated that above)
In the end as Brian said earlier I wish you guy's the best and hope that your training goes well and that you continue to improve. Really to me the lineage is over all unimportant. (it simply does not affect me) However to quite a few people out there this is very, very important.
Take care,
Thank you for your best of luck in training. My training is going well minus a foot injury picked up last night - minor but enough to keep me out of the tournament tomorrow. The Xray says the periosteum is pulled enough to show up on the xray but it will heal - hey I landed the kick.
Anyway, yes my husband's shidoshi was a student of Takamatsu-Sensei's, however due to the claims made by Bujinkan and the number of disbelievers he just wishes to retire in peace after having trained a number of practiotioners that are VERY skilled. You will have to excuse me but one of the things that my husband and I have been given is his life and my life pain free and through that I will NEVER do anything against our Shidoshi. It is called a life debt. Anyone who knows Japanese culture should know that. However, since the perspective of several other traditions is that eight other Menkyo Kaidens are held by other practicioners and THEY wish to not start a war it is perfectly legitimate everywhere else in Ninjutsu except for the Bujinkan family to know there are other lineages. As Hatsumi Soke is the holder of the Menkyo Kaiden of the Togakure Ryu which is our main concentration we respect it and we keep peace. Anything else is of other's concern.
Secondly in proper Ninjutsu culture a holder of Shidoshi-ho does not need answer to anyone who does not hold a Shidoshi-ho or who is not discerning training with said holder. This is why I suggested that the call or email be made so that your credentials can be verified as well. My sensei/husband has no interest in needing to justify ranking/certification/lineage but is willing to answer questions for the purposes of education. The best way to do this would be through email.
Third, a historical accuracy of Ninjutsu culture is that the many members of the clan/ryu/ryuha were not known even to each other. This IS the purpose of the Densho which only the Soke or head of clan holds. This being said many of the certifications written outside of Bujinkan which is a highly public organization compared to the rest of the Ninjutsu community are mostly written in code. This is the context I speak of. Know they are not meant to be read outright. They are meant to be read only by someone who is a member of that community. Most natives that grew up and lived any part of their adult life in Japan will know when they read those kind of certificates that they don't want to know any more.
Fourth, I notice one certificate you haven't questioned the validity of at all is from the head of the Toma Ryu. And yes she has verified my husband's training and signed off on him to hold his Sokeship Menkyo.
Thank you.
And by the way to the one that had the problem with me signing with Budo - you are right Budo for the most part is a verb but also so is Love. Sometimes in a different context they can used as a noun. I feel comfortable signing with both.
Also, we know that Bujinkan is taught a technique that has to do with disruption of the mind. Basically you pick on little details and make the other person look as badly as you can. You also disrupt the mind and cause anger, disruption, and seperation. Good luck and peace.
Budo,
Last edited:
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
Yes, and first starters most of you may or may not know that the proper Densho usually spans 100-125 years approx. Depending on # of students. If you look yes that number does match up and so does everything else. And yes, even Anshu Steven Hayes recognizes her and gives her rank - Anshu Steven Hayes being a student of Hatsumei Soke but making the very public distinction that he is not Bujinkan.
Budo,
I call ******** on this right there.
There is no "Proper Ninjutsu Culture of Only a Shidoshi Ho can Question a Shidoshi Ho" PERIOD. If you were told that, you were lied to. PERIOD.
BUT, FWIW, In case you were unaware, PROPER INTERNET FORUM CULTURE is that if someone comes on making vague claims, they either back them up as verifiable and true, OR they hide behind the no need to justify ranking/certification/lineage in which case they are laughed at as frauds.
So, Congratulations, by your actions, you just told everyone on here "My Husband is a fraud."
Good job.
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
As only being a Nidan (in the Bujinkan) you have much to learn. Ask the higher levels and they will teach you as they see fit BY BUJINKAN WAYS .... UNFORTUANATELY YOU ARE NOT ALONE.
Budo,
Excuse me? You assume to know my rank is Nidan how? Which, by the way, is an incorrect assumption, it is not.
And it's pretty clear, bujinkan or not, Nidan or not, I know more about Ninjutsu history, Japanese culture, and correct terminology, and Web Protocol than you...
so
I'll play your BS game tho:
My rank is rather a bit higher than yours, you have no right to question me. Get someone my own rank or higher to do it... its NINJUTSU CULTURE... :lfao::lfao::lfao:
HeisaaReborn
Orange Belt
Excuse me? You assume to know my rank is Nidan how? Which, by the way, is an incorrect assumption, it is not.
And it's pretty clear, bujinkan or not, Nidan or not, I know more about Ninjutsu history, Japanese culture, and correct terminology, and Web Protocol than you...
so
I'll play your BS game tho:
My rank is rather a bit higher than yours, you have no right to question me. Get someone my own rank or higher to do it... its NINJUTSU CULTURE... :lfao::lfao::lfao:
Actually I wasn't referring to you Cryozombie I was referring to the guy started this. But since you all have to attack in packs I think that someone that lived for four years themselves in full immersion of Japanese culture would know far better gaijin.
You quoted me, so you were obviously referring to me. Nice backpeddle tho.
Again, you show your ignorance, thinking that a Westerner who lives in Japan for a MERE 4 years is no longer Gaijin, and you also assume that my information, as is the info from others on here is not from someone who lived there for 4 years, but rather from Natives.
But I suppose 4 years of living there trumps being native. How naieve of me, and stop addressing me, until you equal my rank, you are breaking Super Sekrit Ninja Protocol.
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
But it does not say Christa Jacobson. It says the name Kurisu Dayakobisun. It should be written as Kurisu Jeikobuson but I think the person who wrote it did not understand the name so wrote it like that. But to really find out if Tomo ryu is a legit school the teacher would have to be contacted and claims would have to be verified. Example my wife's last name is Kaneko which there did live a Kaneko ninjutsu line she does have a Kamon,She holds a shodan(first level) in Shodo while her Aunt holds a teacher's license in Shodo so in a way we could create a Ninjutsu school and it might be harder to disprove but it would be dishonest. So the point is even if they license is written by a Japanese does not make it legit but it makes it more legit then if written by a nonJapanese.
(
The writing is actually pretty good and most likely was written by either 1.Japanese 2.someone who has a good understanding of writing. However I could only see it so well with the magifying glass but it is much better than the Ninjutsu certificate on the Budoiko site.
I think all of Takamatsu students have been accountable as far as the nine schools go. Maybe when he was teaching within the Kukishinden family at their dojo maybe and a big maybe did anyone else learn.
Without a name of the teacher and really I doubt people are going to bother him since other people have trained with Akimoto Fumio,Sato Kenbei who were students of Takamatsu I seriously doubt there is any hidden students he awarded Menkyo to without Hatsumi or anyone else not knowing.
It doesn't say Chris Jacobs, either....
I'm laughing 'cause he's not. :lfao: :lfao:
Ooooh...okay...I'll leave this one alone now.....wouldn't touch it with a pair of tweezers and tyvek gloves....:lfao:
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
You know, I leave here for a few hours... Okay, here we go.
Just in case I'm right on this as well, I'm gonna touch on this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryozombie
Excuse me? You assume to know my rank is Nidan how? Which, by the way, is an incorrect assumption, it is not.
And it's pretty clear, bujinkan or not, Nidan or not, I know more about Ninjutsu history, Japanese culture, and correct terminology, and Web Protocol than you...
so
I'll play your BS game tho:
My rank is rather a bit higher than yours, you have no right to question me. Get someone my own rank or higher to do it... its NINJUTSU CULTURE... :lfao::lfao::lfao:
(Originally posted by Heisaa):
Actually I wasn't referring to you Cryozombie I was referring to the guy started this. But since you all have to attack in packs I think that someone that lived for four years themselves in full immersion of Japanese culture would know far better gaijin.
So was it me that you meant? My rank is Sandan, by the way, not Nidan (although other than the "Sokeship Menkyo", that is the rank on the only other certificate mentioning ninjutsu of your teacher/husband... Hmm, nidan one day, soke the next. And I thought other organisations had rapid rankings...), not that that is important. Your posts have become more and more aggresive, stating that we "attack in packs", then telling Cyro that he should know better because he spent time in Japan (?!). Better than who? Cause he's pretty well miles above your knowledge from everything we've seen here...
Relax, if you have nothing to hide, then simply answer our requests. If you have realised that your husband/teacher/master (really getting uncomfortable with that term now...) is not everything he said, then I suggest you direct your anger where it belongs. We have no vested interest in anything but improving our knowledge, understanding and appreciation of these arts, but that doesn't mean we just accept anyone who says, "Oh, yeah, I'm a ninja too" without checking it out. Don't be upset when people who know about these things point out gaps in truths when presented to them.
Just in case I'm right on this as well, I'm gonna touch on this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cryozombie
Excuse me? You assume to know my rank is Nidan how? Which, by the way, is an incorrect assumption, it is not.
And it's pretty clear, bujinkan or not, Nidan or not, I know more about Ninjutsu history, Japanese culture, and correct terminology, and Web Protocol than you...
so
I'll play your BS game tho:
My rank is rather a bit higher than yours, you have no right to question me. Get someone my own rank or higher to do it... its NINJUTSU CULTURE... :lfao::lfao::lfao:
(Originally posted by Heisaa):
Actually I wasn't referring to you Cryozombie I was referring to the guy started this. But since you all have to attack in packs I think that someone that lived for four years themselves in full immersion of Japanese culture would know far better gaijin.
So was it me that you meant? My rank is Sandan, by the way, not Nidan (although other than the "Sokeship Menkyo", that is the rank on the only other certificate mentioning ninjutsu of your teacher/husband... Hmm, nidan one day, soke the next. And I thought other organisations had rapid rankings...), not that that is important. Your posts have become more and more aggresive, stating that we "attack in packs", then telling Cyro that he should know better because he spent time in Japan (?!). Better than who? Cause he's pretty well miles above your knowledge from everything we've seen here...
Relax, if you have nothing to hide, then simply answer our requests. If you have realised that your husband/teacher/master (really getting uncomfortable with that term now...) is not everything he said, then I suggest you direct your anger where it belongs. We have no vested interest in anything but improving our knowledge, understanding and appreciation of these arts, but that doesn't mean we just accept anyone who says, "Oh, yeah, I'm a ninja too" without checking it out. Don't be upset when people who know about these things point out gaps in truths when presented to them.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Sorry, what on earth are you talking about here? Proper Densho spanning 100 - 125 years? That doesn't make any sense to me at all? Are you talking about how long a particular ryu may have had it's scroll? If you are, then it is pretty well acknowledged and accepted that the practice of writing scrolls (Densho, Makimono etc) probably began during the Tokugawa Shogunate, from the early 17th Century onwards. It has also been said that Toda Sensei was probably the first to put the Togakure material in scroll form, before that it was all kuden transmitted through isshi soden.
But then again, you follow that statement with "depending on # of students", so that doesn't seem to work that way, either. Then, "if you look yes that number does add up". Add up to what? Is this supposed to be the age of your lineages? Cause if you're claiming any of the Bujinkan lineages, you're out by a bit according to the recorded histories (in some cases by about 800 years...).
Then we get back to the Hayes part. As I said, if this is Christa Jacobson (and I think we've established that it is), I highly doubt he vouches for her any more than he would vouch for any Koga Ryu guy who started at a Bujinkan school. At least these days, from memory, Christa gained 2nd Dan in Toshindo as well as the 4th Dan in Bujinkan... then combined with some far less reputable "ninjutsu" and forms her own based on the latter. No, I don't think he would stand up for her authenticity these days.
And let me just be clear... so there is no confusion...
*I* have not spent time in Japan. I train and communicate with people who have, but personally I have yet to go.
Just so we are clear and there is no misunderstanding/misrepresentation on my part.
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