Descendants of "Fakes, Frauds, Con Men..."

[geezer]

Another thread on "fakes, frauds, con-men, etc." posted by Jade Cloud Alchemist, got me thinking about my own experiences in the martial arts. My first "shifu" back in the mid 70s was a capable and dedicated martial artist and instructor of a supposedly "rare, once secret family style of Shaolin". Later, after I had moved on to another system, I found out that this man's instructor, the "Grandmaster" of the style, was of dubious authenticity at best, and more probably a total fraud. Since those days, I've run into similar cases where you have honest, hard working instructors teaching in systems run by very questionable leaders.

Now I'm not just talking about genuine masters who "pad their resume" a bit. My old WT sifu has been accused of that. But he did have an authentic resume to "pad", and superior skills to back it up. Rather, I'm talking about fraudulent "masters" who flat out invent their lineage, falsely claim to be "inheritors" of systems, claim high dan rankings they never received, and even, in some cases, teach supernatural "skills" that don't even exist!

Have you encountered such individuals? And, without mentioning names, what about the instructors that teach underneath them? Can an honest, hard-working instructor run a decent, good quality school if his credentials are built on such a hollow foundation?... even if he can fight?

 

[Flying Crane]

well, everything had to start somewhere.

Do you believe all the fancy stories that so many Chinese styles like to tell about the beginnings of their style are all true? very unlikely.

Nobody wants to hear that their style was developed by the village cistern cleaner. Everyone wants to believe their style had a noble beginning and a sterling lineage. But it often just aint true. So stories are made up to make the origins more impressive than they were. If there isn't a mysterious daoist monk, or a lineage to Shaolin temple, or sudden insight gained from watching a death match between a tweedlebug and a jabberwockey, or a connection to some famous general from 12 generations back, or perhaps the Yellow Emperor himself, then it just doesn't capture the imagination. So stories are told, and after a couple generations it becomes accepted as "truth".

That's not to encourage or support the idea of lying to one's students. But if the guy can fight and has solid skills and knows what he is doing, and his students are likewise capable, maybe you ought to consider why that is? He must have learned something from somewhere, and maybe he is gifted and insightful as well. Sometimes that's all it takes for the genesis of a new system or lineage.

But of course nowadays we are all pretty jaded about such things, so we are automatically skeptical.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Have you encountered such individuals? And, without mentioning names, what about the instructors that teach underneath them? Can an honest, hard-working instructor run a decent, good quality school if his credentials are built on such a hollow foundation?... even if he can fight?

If he has the chops to run a decent class, yes.

And they can even do it honestly. If they claim lineage from Master Fraud, that is honest. If they say, "This is my lineage as communicated to me by Master Fraud," then again, they're being honest.

Now, if he gets into perpetuating the BS that Master Fraud told him and (here's the key) actually knows that its BS, then he's no longer honest.

Regarding technique, usually a Master Fraud's 5000 year old mystery art is cobbled together from existing arts. So it isn't as if the techniques themselves cannot be learned or evaluated in some other fashion.

There was a thread a while back about Youn Hwa Ryu, which had a romantic origin story and supposedly is a Rosetta stone of the martial arts. But GM Han based the curriculum on Taekwondo, used KKW poomsae, and WTF sparring rules. Posted vids looked like reasonably capable taekwondo practitioners.

Needless to say, with a strong taekwondo background, I could go, learn their system and history, and be very skilled in the core techniques and run a good honest class.

And no, I am not calling GM Han a fraud. Only pointing out that his curriculum was essentially taekwondo and it looked like he was producing reasonably capable students under the name of Youn Hwa Ryu that did taekwondo nice enough that the classes looked worthwhile, provided you could get past the origin story and mixture of Korean woman's name with Japanese term for style as a name for a Korean martial art.

If the fraud has reasonable skill in an existing art, repackages is and manufactures a lineage, he or she may still be a capable teacher of the system, but without the repackage and manufactured lineage, they wouldn't be tenth dan.

Edit: I would not recommend such a school, but I do believe that it can be done. If I were a school owner of such a lineage, if I knew that it was false, I'd either downplay it as much as possible or attach myself to a big enough org that my personal lineage would be less of an issue.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Have you encountered such individuals? And, without mentioning names, what about the instructors that teach underneath them? Can an honest, hard-working instructor run a decent, good quality school if his credentials are built on such a hollow foundation?... even if he can fight?

Originally my first Sifu had a legitimate background in CMA that he learned in China and he taught what he knew and he was impressive to watch do forms. Most of it was from a physical education university and the majority of people from China and CMA Sifu’s called him a gym teacher but he knew the forms he learned in school and he knew sports Sanshou. He also had to forms he picked up prior that were pretty good as well (old style Chen and Tongbei). But about 14 years ago he started to change and now he claims all sorts of lineages and all sorts of styles and has DVDs for sale on styles he did not learn in China but he learned form DVD and he has had the Chen family tell him to stop claiming a lineage to them he does not have.

Back 14 years ago I was one of his teachers and when things started to change with made up/required forms and contracts I left. Today he has teachers everywhere and I got to tell you if I went to a school and they claimed a lineage to him I would leave. There is a rather well respected long time school that was recently claiming a lineage to his qigong (which he also leaned by book and video) that made me stop and think twice about that school for a bit.

Basically the majority of legitimate CMA people that I know or have contact with if they hear his name they get disgusted rather quick. Now I do imagine that it is great for sales to claim your teacher is the great xxxxxxx and he is from and trained in China but the reality of him these days is that he is a fraud and he teaches people horrible forms where once he was a stickler for form. Now it is all about cash and that is it. He has even said that he no longer cares about his students only his videos (more money in that)...of course he said this in Chinese so his students would not understand but he still said it.

My Taiji Sifu will not even acknowledge him if he sees him and my Sanda Sifu has no problem calling him huā quán xìu tǔi

So after all of this I have to say, IMO, if one is a teacher of his of has a certificate from him I would not take them seriously in any style they claim to have learned form him. That is by the way how I got around the school that I previously mentioned that I know is rather legitimate in the styles they taught before their association with hem. Anything they claim to have learned form him however, IMO, is bogus at best. Now here is the kicker they may not know it is bogus because he is a damn good salesman.

Nobody wants to hear that their style was developed by the village cistern cleaner.

That might explain why so many things started with Yue Fei and don't get me going on the whole Zhang Sanfeng thing

 

[clfsean]

My Taiji Sifu will not even acknowledge him if he sees him and my Sanda Sifu has no problem calling him huā quán xìu tǔi

*ouch* damn it *ouch*

That's just *ouch*

 

[Flying Crane]

...but the reality of him these days is that he is a fraud and he teaches people horrible forms where once he was a stickler for form. Now it is all about cash and that is it. He has even said that he no longer cares about his students only his videos (more money in that)...of course he said this in Chinese so his students would not understand but he still said it.

To me, this sounds like he simply sold out to the idea of making lots of money from his art, with a willingness to sacrifice the quality of what he taught on the alter of the dollar. Sounds like the addition of dubious or questionable or downright fraudulent lineages to his resume was a calculated decision to help funnel in more dollars.

I think the difference between this and the OP is: what if the teacher was actually very skilled, and was able to train skilled students who really know their stuff and are very capable and skilled as well? What he is teaching clearly works and is sound and solid. But he made up some fake lineage to make it sound more impressive. If he continues to offer high quality training, then I don't hold his lineage up to such high negative scrutiny. The problem is in getting past the lineage issue once you become aware of it. How does a new student give this instructor a chance if he knows the lineage is questionable? How does an established student look past the lies and continue the association, if he doesn't find out about them until after the fact? In the case of the established student, it's especially difficult if he knows that he has received solid and good training, yet he feels he has been deceived all along.

It creates a weird situation, one that I would be upset to find myself in. Yet it doesn't have to mean that the time and training was all wasted.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To me, this sounds like he simply sold out to the idea of making lots of money from his art, with a willingness to sacrifice the quality of what he taught on the alter of the dollar. Sounds like the addition of dubious or questionable or downright fraudulent lineages to his resume was a calculated decision to help funnel in more dollars.

I think the difference between this and the OP is: what if the teacher was actually very skilled, and was able to train skilled students who really know their stuff and are very capable and skilled as well? What he is teaching clearly works and is sound and solid. But he made up some fake lineage to make it sound more impressive. If he continues to offer high quality training, then I don't hold his lineage up to such high negative scrutiny. The problem is in getting past the lineage issue once you become aware of it. How does a new student give this instructor a chance if he knows the lineage is questionable? How does an established student look past the lies and continue the association, if he doesn't find out about them until after the fact? In the case of the established student, it's especially difficult if he knows that he has received solid and good training, yet he feels he has been deceived all along.

It creates a weird situation, one that I would be upset to find myself in. Yet it doesn't have to mean that the time and training was all wasted.

Well then there is a rather famous Sifu out there that has claimed a lineage that he does not have, however I am not sure if you can actually say he knew he claimed a possible false lineage until his teacher resurfaced and made his lineage known and he has students who are damn good and I would train with.

For me it all comes down to why the claim was made and how skilled the student is that is now teaching. If that student was unaware of the false claims then the student, if a skilled and good teacher should not be held responsible for his teachers...well....ummm... falsification

I do know another Sifu that after much though on his lineage claims I do believe he fudged it a bit, although he did train with the person he claimed lineage to he was not actually a student of that Sifu (think seminar) as far as that Sifu was concerned. He did legitimately learn the style form another legitimate Sifu but he plays that down as an "I also trained with" kind of thing. I have trained with him and I would again if time and money allowed. But he is honestly missing part of what the style is. But as my wife puts it "look at it like school" meaning you start in first grade and work your way to college. But I have to tell you I am not so sure I would train with someone he made a teacher of that style but then I would not be protesting outside his school and making challenges either. I have no doubt his student he made teacher could fight, just not in the style he was teaching.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

I personally like the one comment that one poster posted on one thread - and I am going to paraphrase but he basically said that it was like Church and if they weren't in yours than it was a cult and wrong. The thing history has taught us in more than just the martial arts is that there are many different sides to the story. The ones that propagate history get to tell the story. Might not be true, might not be false, it is just their perception of the story. I knew of one man, very honestly fraud who created an art, added up his two highest dan ranks and called himself a fifth dan. That is probably the definition of fraud. Trying to decide if someone in a clan 50-60 years ago was really training who he said he was training with when he has the skills to back that up and that same master is now dead is not constituted as fraud. Especially when the person you love and trust most has the seen the scrolls.

You know there is one main story of how martial arts came to us all - and I hope I don't derail this too far but I liked what the poster said about the cistern cleaner and tales of Chinese arts. It was that the demons brought us the physical skills of the arts so we would destroy ourselves and the angels brought us the wisdom to go with it so we could use it for healing. Kind of a double edged sword?

 

[geezer]

Regarding technique, usually a Master Fraud's 5000 year old mystery art is cobbled together from existing arts. So it isn't as if the techniques themselves cannot be learned or evaluated in some other fashion...

If the fraud has reasonable skill in an existing art, repackages is and manufactures a lineage, he or she may still be a capable teacher of the system, but without the repackage and manufactured lineage, they wouldn't be tenth dan.

This is typically what happens. So the students may learn real martial arts techniques, but these techniques, as you suggested are cobbled together from a hodgepodge of sources, slickly packaged and billed as "authentic" representations of Shaolin, Tai Chi, Ninjutsu, or what have you. The resultant "art" is a patently false representation of whatever culture or tradition it claims as it's source. This isn't a matter of the "quaint origin myths" that many arts have. It's a matter of an individual in recent times making up tall tales to sell a product. Now if you want to start your own system, like Bruce Lee's JKD, that's fine. No deception there. But to invent a system and pass it off as some ancient art of another culture so you can make a buck?

 

[HeisaaReborn]

This is typically what happens. So the students may learn real martial arts techniques, but these techniques, as you suggested are cobbled together from a hodgepodge of sources, slickly packaged and billed as "authentic" representations of Shaolin, Tai Chi, Ninjutsu, or what have you. The resultant "art" is a patently false representation of whatever culture or tradition it claims as it's source. This isn't a matter of the "quaint origin myths" that many arts have. It's a matter of an individual in recent times making up tall tales to sell a product. Now if you want to start your own system, like Bruce Lee's JKD, that's fine. No deception there. But to invent a system and pass it off as some ancient art of another culture so you can make a buck?

I am glad that you said this about the resultant "art." To me in the way the way that I read this it is not the resultant art that is going to have the lineage - however that does not negate the actual ranks and lineage(s) in already formed styles that master may have. For instance the art my husband teaches is not Ninjutsu - never claimed to be - it is a mix of Taijitsu, Muay Thai, and Tae Kwon Do - the purpose of which was to link the three cultures by their strengths. There is also Fillipino escrima in hand to hand, hand to stick, and stick to stick forms. That does not negate the Dan ranks my husband has in the other arts he is still training in and has been training in for the last 20 years including those four. I think that maybe this is where some people go wrong in being quick to assume or prejudge or miscommunicating intent.

Budo,

 

[Archangel M]

I think that there is an issue with the whole "cultural thing". In my world view this should be about effectiveness, not about fantasizing that Im a ninja, shaolin monk or Samurai. Not that there is anything wrong with having an interest in ones arts history or anything "right" with an instructor making up said history. I just think that there is a difference between martial arts and LARPING.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

For instance the art my husband teaches is not Ninjutsu - never claimed to be

Oh ya then what about this?

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http://www.budoikiryu.com/id7.html

Looks like you are trying to teach Ninjutsu to me!!! BTW Taijutsu just means body art and is more hand to hand but here you go saying you don't teach Ninjutsu but here you are teaching Ninjutsu arts.

Please just be honest.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

I think that there is an issue with the whole "cultural thing". In my world view this should be about effectiveness, not about fantasizing that Im a ninja, shaolin monk or Samurai. Not that there is anything wrong with having an interest in ones arts history or anything "right" with an instructor making up said history. I just think that there is a difference between martial arts and LARPING.

I think if you look at history though you will find that many of our great arts have come from just that. For instance - Ninjutsu. During the time of Samurai oppression there was one farmer who had the guts or lunacy (whoever writes history) to stand up to an oppressive Samurai and take his sword while unarmed. As this legend grew so did the art - the man was said to be possibly from China and if you look at the movements it makes sense. As history went on and Samurai left their masters and some Samurai paid Ninja to get rid of other Samurai you had melding. Eventually you had Ninjutsu from two different regions, Iga and Koka, which then spawn into nine Ryu which all learn tactics of hiding their illegal weapons.

Then Japan gets upset and decides all these warriors around killing each other are too powerful for the Emperor to build a society in which he can have free trade with other nations. He hires the Samurai to do away with the Ninja. He thinks they have succeeded. Fortunately, Ninjutsu is an art based in secrecy, silence, and shadows. Hence, then it is time to do something with the Samurai. They hire Americans with the Gattling (please I know I am spelling this wrong help me out) Gun.

Now all warrior arts in Japan are banned. Jigoro Kano wishes to train others so that his art that he is a master in does not die. He takes the lethality out of the beginning ranks of Japanese Ju Jutsu and it becomes Judo. The lethal moves are saved for the masters above whose loyalty he has earned.

From the Japanese occupation of Okinawa we get Karate.

From the Japanese occupation of Korea we get Tae Kwon Do. And after Korea splits we get ITF and WTF.

Bruce Lee mentioned above is told that he will never be allowed to teach the white man. He creates his own style and does it anyway - OK, really long movie shortened into a really short paragraph. (Trying to keep things light and intelligent and non-threatening in anyway. :angel

The point of this is, is that all of these men were supposed to fail at the creation of their own art. Heck, (not cursing) most of them were supposed to end up dead for it. Yet they succeeded. But here we are, Monday morning quarterbacking masters that have the courage or lunacy to try to do it where they see a need.

In my husband's case it was a cultural need. He has a few mixes of Asian blood, one being Japanese and he wanted to them together. It has never been about the money. As far as the Ninjutsu goes, any student that has qualified for Ninjutsu training under the old rules takes an oath and trains privately in that art for FREE. Even the uniform and weapons are gift because at that point they are family of his master and treated as such. Any student who asks to be taught never will be. The closest he ever comes to teaching "Ninpo" is a monthly seminar on a weapon or technique. No paying student is taught the full system. He strictly teaches Budoiki Ryu Bujutsu which is a hybrid art that has been recognized and Tae Kwon Do which he is a 3rd dan in and will be going for his 4th dan in this fall. When a student makes dan grade in Budoiki Ryu Bujutsu they also have completed the full curriculum to make Dan grade in WTF Tae Kwon Do. That way if they feel they want to move on they can.

These are my opinions and why I have them. Opinions are like colds - everybody gets them nobody minds sharing but nobody wants yours (and yes that was a cleaned up addage) but I just wanted to share because I did see some open minded souls on here.

Budo and because I forgot to say so yesterday Happy St Patty's Day,

 

[Archangel M]

Maybe I wasnt clear. IMO studying martial arts and having an interest in its historical roots is all fine. Walking around in silk PJ's and straw hats like Leroy in The Last Dragon looking for "the master" is..well...pathetic.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Maybe I wasnt clear. IMO studying martial arts and having an interest in its historical roots is all fine. Walking around in silk PJ's and straw hats like Leroy in The Last Dragon looking for "the master" is..well...pathetic.

Agreed. Very much so. I don't think I have such a good laugh all day. Now I think I will have to see that movie. Because my hubby says it is worth seeing. BTW I was very dissappointed at BloodSport 4 - you?

Budo,

 

[Xue Sheng]

Maybe I wasnt clear. IMO studying martial arts and having an interest in its historical roots is all fine. Walking around in silk PJ's and straw hats like Leroy in The Last Dragon looking for "the master" is..well...pathetic.

Well yeah... pfhht silk pajamas...that is pathetic... that’s why in my office I dress like this

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Gee and I complain about having to go business casual and doing my hair. That kind of armor must take forever - and where's a phone booth when you need one - :caffeine:

 

[Radhnoti]

One of my best friends was an up-and-comer in an art that he eventually determined to have false lineage and an incomplete translation of the material being taught. The problem being, he was never really CERTAIN until he achieved high enough rank to see that the promised insights never really came to fruition. Before leaving, he was explaining things to his own teachers, including important underlying principles, using Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's books as supplemental material on his own initiative. He was "3rd black" in that system, with 15 SERIOUS and 20 total years learning there...

In my opinion, Chinese arts are especially vulnerable to this problem...because of the tradition of "closed door disciples", in which you must first prove yourself to be accepted.
The lineage was not the only reason (unreal politics and egos as well), but he decided to drop from that system/organization and teach his own curriculum. He's since been evaluated and certified by a few other organizations...he gives his background to anyone that asks but almost no one does. People starting out really don't usually care and after he's had a student long enough they usually don't care because he's such a gifted teacher. I reached black in the first system and have stayed on through the transition to "his" system, which was a bit of a rocky road...but what he teaches now is FAR better. I never have to deflect a student's questions about lineage, and students are getting a better martial education. The trade-off is he lost the "mystique" of a shaolin lineage with the whole "keeper of lost knowledge" sales pitch.

 

[jks9199]

Gee and I complain about having to go business casual and doing my hair. That kind of armor must take forever - and where's a phone booth when you need one - :caffeine:

And it must be hell on the furniture, too!

 

[HeisaaReborn]

One of my best friends was an up-and-comer in an art that he eventually determined to have false lineage and an incomplete translation of the material being taught. The problem being, he was never really CERTAIN until he achieved high enough rank to see that the promised insights never really came to fruition. Before leaving, he was explaining things to his own teachers, including important underlying principles, using Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's books as supplemental material on his own initiative. He was "3rd black" in that system, with 15 SERIOUS and 20 total years learning there...

In my opinion, Chinese arts are especially vulnerable to this problem...because of the tradition of "closed door disciples", in which you must first prove yourself to be accepted.
The lineage was not the only reason (unreal politics and egos as well), but he decided to drop from that system/organization and teach his own curriculum. He's since been evaluated and certified by a few other organizations...he gives his background to anyone that asks but almost no one does. People starting out really don't usually care and after he's had a student long enough they usually don't care because he's such a gifted teacher. I reached black in the first system and have stayed on through the transition to "his" system, which was a bit of a rocky road...but what he teaches now is FAR better. I never have to deflect a student's questions about lineage, and students are getting a better martial education. The trade-off is he lost the "mystique" of a shaolin lineage with the whole "keeper of lost knowledge" sales pitch.

I hope your master knows how lucky he is to have such a loyal student. Not all students in todays world are as loyal or as public about their loyalty.

Budo,