Bowing

[KennethKu]

Heck, there are just as many instructors that don't particularly put their students first, and yet demand respect and all.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Originally posted by Old Warrior
"How do you show respect?"

There is a difference between showing respect and complying with the customs of the place where you may be.

A judge is called "Your Honor" whether or not you think he/she is an incompetent or a crook.

My closest friend is a highly decorated former US Marine, who for years has been my training partner. He has earned my respect.

There is nothing demeaning about following social customs. Respect comes a different place within me.

Exellent point Old Warrior :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
It is a preparation for learning. It reminds one to be humble when learning...if you step onto the mat with a full cup, you may miss an important lesson that day...

It is not religious...and you are not bowing to the mat...you are reminding yourself to remain open to new learning...

:asian:
chufeng

I was just being sarcastic. I was always under the impression I was bowing to the training place in general.....not specifically the mats.

 

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

I was just being sarcastic. I was always under the impression I was bowing to the training place in general.....not specifically the mats.

But you gave me an excellent opportunity to put my post up...thanks.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

I have seen some Chinese MA schools in the US that have adopted Japanese dojo traditions like bowing when entering the dojo and so on.
I didn’t see as much bowing in Chinese MA schools (which are quite often outside) when I was in China.

Just out of curiosity do any of the people on here that do Chinese arts bow using the Japanese reasoning for it or for the same situations?

 

[fringe_dweller]

In hkd we are taught from day one that we are unable to train on our own and anything which allows us to train deserves our respect. Hence we don't throw targets or shields on the florr, we place them carefully. At the end of the class we form a circle and bow to each other (collectively) whilst saying cumsah hum nida (forgive the poor attempt) which in essence means thankyou for training with me. In the same sense we bow to our instructor.

Respectfully,

 

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

Yes, YiLiQuan schools/clubs do use the Japanese model of running class, to include bowing. Our teacher, although primarily trained in Chinese arts, has dan rank in KyukushinKai and ShitoRyu...He is close friends with some fairly senior JKA folks (I know you don't give them much credence, but some of them have a good bit of skill)...at any rate, he uses a Japanese model to teach Chinese boxing...and it works.

I open class (if I have three or more students present) with a formal bowing in...and close class with the same. If there is one or two students, I use an informal class approach...in both instances, the training that occurs after class opens is the same.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by fringe_dweller
In hkd we are taught from day one that we are unable to train on our own and anything which allows us to train deserves our respect. Hence we don't throw targets or shields on the florr, we place them carefully. At the end of the class we form a circle and bow to each other (collectively) whilst saying cumsah hum nida (forgive the poor attempt) which in essence means thankyou for training with me. In the same sense we bow to our instructor.

Respectfully,

Not be rude but from all that I have read and seen about Hapkido it is basically imported Aikido/DaitoRyu from Japan with a few Koreanisms thrown in.

 

[Kirk]

I can't remember where I heard this originally, and it was quite
some time ago ...

Are there various forms of bowing in Japan? Meaning various
placement of feet, and various depths of the bow, etc?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng
Yes, YiLiQuan schools/clubs do use the Japanese model of running class, to include bowing. Our teacher, although primarily trained in Chinese arts, has dan rank in KyukushinKai and ShitoRyu...

Japanese arts do tend to be more structured with ranks, and formalities. I don't know if that is good or bad.

Originally posted by chufeng
He is close friends with some fairly senior JKA folks (I know you don't give them much credence, but some of them have a good bit of skill)..

I think people misunderstand me about my feelings toward the JKA/JKF……and it’s my fault for sure.
The JKA/JKF are good at what they do, which is modern, sport oriented, non-contact tournament Karate and I give them credit for that.
However, they are not what they imply to the general public and that is “Traditional Karate”. That has been my whole problem with them from the start coupled with some of the bloated egos I encountered while there. (Yes, I actually trained there for a while)

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
I can't remember where I heard this originally, and it was quite
some time ago ...

Are there various forms of bowing in Japan? Meaning various
placement of feet, and various depths of the bow, etc?

Here is a page on Japanese etiquette.

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.com/


How to Bow:

http://www.ogasawara-ryu.com/en/indexe.html

 

[Chronuss]

at our studio we bow when we enter the door to show respect to the place where we are able to learn, train, and practice. there is also a line about ten feet away from the door; shoes are not to be worn on the feet past this line, unless mat shoes. we bow before we cross this line to show respect to the training floor. as for people, we salute people. if there is a black belt in the room, we bow when entering the room then turn and salute the person. as it has been told to me, and as Mr. Billings said before me, Mr. Parker did not bow to people, he chose to salute, which is carried over from Chinese arts. if a person in class is chosen to demonstrate a technique with an instructor, after the technique is demonstrated the student salutes the instructor and the instructor to the student.

 

[fringe_dweller]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Not be rude but from all that I have read and seen about Hapkido it is basically imported Aikido/DaitoRyu from Japan with a few Koreanisms thrown in.

A few different styles of hapkido have evolved and there a few differing views on it's history but basicaly Young-Sool Choi studied in some way shape or form under Sokaku Takeda as did Morihei Ueshiba (who founded Aikido). Ji Han Jae (who founded Sin Moo Hapkido) studied under GM Choi and added a number of kicks to the system and thus the art is as I study it today.

If I have erred in any of this I am sure someone with more knowledge will be happy to advise differently.

As I hear it told, Hapkido and Aikido are both circular arts although hkd uses smaller circles while Aikido uses larger ones. Also Aikido doesn't incorporate the number/range of kicks in hkd. This is not to say either one is better, just highlighting what I know the differences to be.

Respectfully,

 

[Kiz Bell]

A couple of posts here piqued my interest.

Firstly, salutes in Kempo. What do you mean by "saluting"? Do you mean a snappy, military style salute, or are you describing something else all together? In MJER iaijutsu, the "salute" is gripping the end of the tsuba at the end of the kata. It is done right at the end of the kata, it's quite subtle and does not replace the bow, it's just in addition to it. I have no problem with bowing but I'd feel pretty wierd doing a military style salute to someone. I mean, if I was in a Kempo dojo and everyone else was saluting, I'd do it too to be polite, I'd just feel pretty wierd about it, that's all.

And what about the thing with the flags in the dojo? I've been in quite a few dojo and have never come across the bowing to the flags of the style's founding country, or the country that the dojo is physically located in, or any other country for that matter. If I went overseas to train in, let's say, America, I'd really wouldn't want to be required to bow to the "star and stipes". I'm there to train, not indulge in nationalist fervour.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not bagging either of these practices, these are just my personal feelings on the matter.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

There is usually a reason, then the reason behind the reason. It is a complex world we live in and nothing is quite as black and white as JudoKid presented on the McDojo thread. Time, seasoning, sophistication - we all lacked these at one time, hopefully he will gain them as he turns into JudoMan.[/B]

Gotta say that your post in sum, and most especially the section I have quoted, is one of the best things I have heard in a while... You hit the nail square on the head.

To pick on Judo-kid just a little more (he's tough, he can take it! ), and to use him as a general example, when young, dumb and full of piss and vinegar, people tend to eschew such anachronisms like courtesy and respect in their rebellious drive to strike a name for themselves, to identify themselves as seperate from the group. I know I did it (I used to relish wearing my "Have a Nice Day A$$hole" t-shirt to school and tell all the teachers I hated to "have a nice day."), and I am sure that everyone else here is guilty of a little of the same. It is normal and natural.

But then, after a time, age and experience season us sufficiently to educate us to the necessity of such trivial conventions like politeness and respect. We learn that it is one of the only currencies of human contact worth trading in.

Even within MMA circles, respect is one of the most important things a person can earn. Good skills earn respect. Good bearing and sportsmanship earn respect. They just display it differently.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

I do have respect, Just because i dont like bowing. Gives you no right to question my morals and my respect.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
I do have respect, Just because i dont like bowing. Gives you no right to question my morals and my respect.

Who questioned your morals and level of respect? Your behavior here has been at times refreshingly polite and at others blatantly discourteous and downright rude. I judge people based on displayed characteristics rather than preconceived notions and stereotypes.

In fact, I thought I was coming to your defense to a certain degree by commenting that MMAists do in fact show their respect, just in ways that are not culturally specific.

I think the point others have been making is that very often if you study a MA from another culture/country, you should be prepared to accept some cultural baggage that comes along with it. If you don't like the baggage, go somewhere else. Sometimes getting rid of the baggage does more damage than it does good...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

Agreed/
It all depends really.
There are many variables.
I find the questions are harder to find then the answers at times.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Agreed/
It all depends really.
There are many variables.
I find the questions are harder to find then the answers at times.

See. There you go. Acting all mature, grown up and insightful, right when I was wondering if you had completely lost whatever it was that made me halfway respect you in the first place...

My respect for you, however much there is, has been developed by your comments that display insight and understanding. The lack of respect for you has come from your juvenile and inflammatory remarks. I, for one, think you are probably on the right road. You may well reach your goal, who am I to say?

What I do know, though, is that you aren't there yet... And there may be a few tricks that an old, flabby, out of shape, greying, veteran soldier with arthritis and a few herniated discs can still show a pup like you...

Gambarimasu. And thanks for renewing my respect for you.
:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Thanks guys.

Seriously, I made it up. Had many of those same thoughts when I was just starting out. Couldn't understand why things were the way they were. Had a long conversation with Ingmar from Sweden... he showed me about a half dozen techniches that flowed right out of the traditional kenpo salutation. I was like, "That is useful? Damn!" He also showed me some offencive stuff right out of Short 1.

3 years of training, a casual knowledge of 40+ arts, and some exposure to the real movers and shakers has opened my eyes. Its onething to train in the one room school house...going to Harvards a whole different world.

Too many times folks get involved, have the blinders on, refuse to bend and lose out one whole worlds of things.

Bowing....I rarely bow. I don't train in arts that do alot of it. We bow at the begining of class as a group, and at the end, then shake hands. Nothing fancy. Now, if I got the chance to train in some of the arts I'm interested in would I? Yes. I have no problems following the customs of different arts. Maybe its the larger experiences I've had traveling around the US, or just a rejection of the 'mental constipation' too many folks suffer from.

Youre gonna teach me how to swing a sword? but first I must put on a pink tutu and do a pirroete? No Problem. See, I understand that spin will help my speed draw.

:asian:

Its the open mind baby...gotta have one to excel in the arts.

I'm going to have to talk to Ingmar about spreading around what I've taught him.