To bow is subservient

[stabpunch]

I hold my friends in the greatest reverance, i respect them more than anything else in this world. Maybe sometimes you might catch me bowing to them.

If you wear a black belt with any number of cotton lines i will not bow to you unless you render me useless and even then i will not slump and bow to you.

This is not to say i will not show you respect when it is due. If your culture permits me to bow in an offering of respect then i may do so. Remember i may not respect your position in my experience so don't be offended if i miss a clue that you are revered in your culture.

For me a hand shake or a high five will suffice.

So if you see me around, put one up and we can slap it down.

Gimme 5 brother artyon:

Respect, where respect is due.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

??

 

[Andrew Green]

alrighty then?

btw - How is it subservient to bow to someone that is bowing back?

 

[stabpunch]

alrighty then?

btw - How is it subservient to bow to someone that is bowing back?

I like this. Perhaps i will now say that i shall not bow to someone who will not in return bow to me. Is this how fights start?

Thank you

 

[Drac]

How is it subservient to bow to someone that is bowing back?

Ya beat me to asking that...I bow to everyone white belt to 9 Dan..To me it's a sign of respect...

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Personally, I look at the bow being just about the same as the salute in the military. A sign of respect between fighting men initiated by the junior and replied to by the senior.

Jeff

 

[Kacey]

Bowing is no more subservient than shaking hands or the "air kiss" popular in many upper class groups - it is a sign of respect and is also a greeting. The depth of the bow demonstrates the level of respect one is showing - a lower bow denotes greater respect. I bow to my instructor and seniors; I also bow to my students. Likewise, I call them all "sir" or "ma'am" as appropriate to their gender as a sign of respect, and I do not consider that subservient either; I consider to be courtesy.

Bowing did denote subservience in some Asian cultures - most notably in the samurai culture of Japan, where samurai could not kill anyone who demonstrated appropriate respect by bowing low enough - but that is not the bow that is commonly used in martial arts. Wikipedia has a good range of information on bowing, in a variety of cultural and historical contexts, including a passage on bowing in the martial arts. In 19 years of active involvement in martial arts, I have never been in a martial arts class which
included subservience in the rationale for bowing, although I have occasionally met people who had religious objections to bowing in a martial arts context, as they felt they should bow their heads only in religious contexts - but even they, once the concept of bowing to show respect, and in a posture that kept the head raised and the eyes up, did not have difficulty with or objection to the type of bowing used in class.

 

[lll000000lll]

Bowing is no more subservient than shaking hands or the "air kiss" popular in many upper class groups - it is a sign of respect and is also a greeting. The depth of the bow demonstrates the level of respect one is showing - a lower bow denotes greater respect. I bow to my instructor and seniors; I also bow to my students. Likewise, I call them all "sir" or "ma'am" as appropriate to their gender as a sign of respect, and I do not consider that subservient either; I consider to be courtesy.

Bowing did denote subservience in some Asian cultures - most notably in the samurai culture of Japan, where samurai could not kill anyone who demonstrated appropriate respect by bowing low enough - but that is not the bow that is commonly used in martial arts. Wikipedia has a good range of information on bowing, in a variety of cultural and historical contexts, including a passage on bowing in the martial arts. In 19 years of active involvement in martial arts, I have never been in a martial arts class which
included subservience in the rationale for bowing, although I have occasionally met people who had religious objections to bowing in a martial arts context, as they felt they should bow their heads only in religious contexts - but even they, once the concept of bowing to show respect, and in a posture that kept the head raised and the eyes up, did not have difficulty with or objection to the type of bowing used in class.

well put.

 

[chinto01]

I hold my friends in the greatest reverance, i respect them more than anything else in this world. Maybe sometimes you might catch me bowing to them.

If you wear a black belt with any number of cotton lines i will not bow to you unless you render me useless and even then i will not slump and bow to you.

This is not to say i will not show you respect when it is due. If your culture permits me to bow in an offering of respect then i may do so. Remember i may not respect your position in my experience so don't be offended if i miss a clue that you are revered in your culture.

For me a hand shake or a high five will suffice.

So if you see me around, put one up and we can slap it down.

Gimme 5 brother artyon:

Respect, where respect is due.

Stabpunch not to start an argument with you but I think you need to research the culture in which your art comes from before you make statements like this.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[crushing]

I pretty much agree with the others that have responded thus far. It's a sign of respect, much like a salute. I don't think the bow is anything like the contemporary Western definition of kowtow.

 

[stone_dragone]

I hold my friends in the greatest reverance, i respect them more than anything else in this world. Maybe sometimes you might catch me bowing to them.

If you wear a black belt with any number of cotton lines i will not bow to you unless you render me useless and even then i will not slump and bow to you.

This is not to say i will not show you respect when it is due. If your culture permits me to bow in an offering of respect then i may do so. Remember i may not respect your position in my experience so don't be offended if i miss a clue that you are revered in your culture.

For me a hand shake or a high five will suffice.

So if you see me around, put one up and we can slap it down.

Respect, where respect is due.

This post seems to indicate a few things (note that I said, indicate and not demonstrate....it looks like this to me...)

First and foremost - the poster seems to hold himself in higher esteem than anyone that he will ever run into. It appears that he holds a belief that the greatest level someone (whom he doesn't know) can reach is only equal to himself and that there is no one deserving of more respect than him and his own small peer group.

Second - in a culture that recognizes the bow as the official greeting and the depth of respect is indicated by the depth of the bow, to refuse to do so demonstrates not only a disrespect for the individual, but his or her entire culture...very thin ice to be skating on, even down under.

It is the equivalent of "leaving someone hanging..." when they offer you a high five or their hand for a handshake. It is disrespectful and rude; mostly because it is moderately embarrassing for the person offering it to be "out there flapping" as I like to call it.

Which leads me to my Third - For someone to enter another culture (whether it be to go to the "Little Tokyo" section of New York City or the middle of Baghdad) without being willing to acknowledge and participate in their cultural greetings and at least attempt to speak the language is the highest ignorance and egotism that I can imagine, especially when it is expected that they conform to one's own language/culture.

On the street, treat everyone with respect, regardless of standing in some sport or art, but in the correct context, one should render the appropriate courtesy... In the college classroom, treat the professor with respect. In the tent of a regional tribal chief/caliph, treat him appropriately. In the Dojo/Dojang/Kwoon/Gym/etc do likewise to those who have earned it within the confines of that particular culture.

My .02 in '06

 

[tshadowchaser]

I bow to show respect :
1 to those I train with
2 To those that have past the knowledge on
3 To anyone that bows to me
4 To those that my one day study and pass on the knowledge
5 to those that have earned their rank
6 To those that i respect

I dont offten shake hands
I dont bow to a few because i have no respect for them or what they do but that is a personal thing between us

 

[BlackCatBonz]

If you wear a black belt with any number of cotton lines i will not bow to you unless you render me useless and even then i will not slump and bow to you.

this line in particular makes me laugh.

I've known several teachers that like taking students like this and doing something called "introducing them to their a-holes".....which is like "bowing extreme"

 

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Is there any bowing in your art of Hakarac?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I hold my friends in the greatest reverance, i respect them more than anything else in this world. Maybe sometimes you might catch me bowing to them.

If you wear a black belt with any number of cotton lines i will not bow to you unless you render me useless and even then i will not slump and bow to you.

This is not to say i will not show you respect when it is due. If your culture permits me to bow in an offering of respect then i may do so. Remember i may not respect your position in my experience so don't be offended if i miss a clue that you are revered in your culture.

For me a hand shake or a high five will suffice.

So if you see me around, put one up and we can slap it down.

Gimme 5 brother artyon:

Respect, where respect is due.

Both the handshake and the high five offer your right hand away from possible combat. Its all the sam ting.
Sean

 

[FearlessFreep]

Hanging around some Koreans I noticed that they bow in much the same way as I would shake hands. It's just how their culture expresses that same sign of mutual respect but even just camraderie and fellowship. Nothing about 'mutual fighters' but simply about 'friends' or even as a friendly introduction to someone. In Western cultuure I think the act of bowing has much more of an overtone of 'subservience' or 'superiority' , but what little observation I've been able to make, that's not the same connotation in the cultures of the arts we practice. (And I wonder if the different cultural interpretations in bowing is why we take bowing and other formalities so seriously)

 

[Kreth]

I agree with Freep. Bowing in Asian cultures is more of a greeting than a sign of subservience. Although, there are nuances in the depth of bow, but that's roughly equivalent to calling someone Sir or Ma'am in the West.

 

[MA-Caver]

I see nothing subservient in bowing to someone where it is appropriate. One afternoon I was in a phone store with a friend and a gentleman and his daughter from India came into the store. Catching each other's eye I put my hands together (as in prayer) and gave the man a short bow. He was delighted and returned in like kind.
Upon greeting any of my native asian born friends I will give a short bow along with the americanized hand-shake in greeting. Likewise it is reciprocated.
When I become Ceicei's uke for her practices we bow to each other.

How deeply one bows to another gives regard to the acknowledgement of one's station over the other. IMO not bowing to anyone unless they whip your *** is being disrespectful. Particularly in a Martial Art situation, i.e. being in a dojo and a ranking BB is present and addressing you. Same as with the military where a 2 year 2nd lieutenant gets a salute from a 30 year master sergeant.

Intent plays a major role in how we act towards someone. It conveys how we see them.
No man is better or worse than me. But every-man deserves the level of respect he deserves.

 

[Xue Sheng]

okie dokie.

I agree with just about eveything that has been posted in response to your original post.

Let me just say that bowing is a sign of respect it is not being subservient.

Respect
1. A feeling of appreciative, often deferential regard; esteem.
2. The state of being regarded with honor or esteem.
3. Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.
4. Polite expressions of consideration or deference: pay one's respects

Subservient
1.Subordinate in capacity or function.
2.Obsequious; servile.
3.Useful as a means or an instrument; serving to promote an end.

You need to research the culture a bit and if this is the way you truly feel then maybe Asian Martial arts just are not for you.

 

[pstarr]

If you cannot humble yourself enough to bow, you cannot humble yourself enough to learn.