Bowing=Brain wash

[sweeper]

alot of things have the power to kill ou.. it's not a big deal.. every person you see in a car has that power, ever play any sports? well you're probably risking your life ( think it was posted on this board that the most common cause of death in most field sports is a broken shin) stepping into the ring is relativly safe compared to other dangers.. even the food you eat could kill you if prepared improperly.. does that mean you should respect it? Well I think you should be aware of danger in order to minimise it, but I doubt most people realy take time to respect how fragile human beings realy are (wether they should or shouldn't).

 

[Yari]

Mayby it's time to define respect

For me it's the ack. of what it/who it is, and the potential of what it is/who it is, and not thinking that it /person is greater nor lesser than me.

Food I respect in the sense that it gives me the energy I need. But I also understand that ever green plant has a function so the plant that I eat can give me it's life.

People I respect for being humanbeings, not nessarly for what they say or do or stand for. For that I would have to meet them or seen them act.

/Yari

 

[tonbo]

Yes, many things have the power to kill you. No doubt. Being alive means that you risk death every day. You can breathe bad air, suffocate, get hit by a car, have a tree fall on you, get bitten by a poisonous snake, blah, blah, blah.

Yes, I *do* think that you should respect these things. But I would have to fine-tune what I mean by respect.

In terms of people, I would intend it to mean that you acknowledge the fact that your opponent has *some* degree of skill or ability--even if they are not top of the heap. Pay some amount of homage to the fact that they, too, have been alive for some time, and they have learned things, had experiences, and built their own little "treasure pile" in life--they have things that they can teach you, one way or another. Every man/woman can teach you something, somehow. That, in my opinion, is worthy of even a nod of respect.

For animals and nature, I think respect means just the simple awareness of their life as well. If you know there are poisonous animals around, don't go running into where they hang out. Give them room and don't poke at 'em, and you won't get bitten.

Cars and stuff like that, same thing. Don't run out in front of them, don't do stupid dangerous things. Respect means just being aware of how to be *smart* when dealing with them.

This is just a brief overview; hope it makes some sense. No, I don't think you need to bow to cars or snakes, or stuff like that. However, I don't think you need to be stupid in dealing with them, either.

Okay, I'll stop rambling before I go too far...

Peace--

 

[sweeper]

rambaling is what makes these threds fun

well as to experience, if I were to be consistant with that I would be bowing to most of my freinds, all of my relatives and probably quite a few more.

And as to the other situations, you can't control where a drunk driver will be and when, you can't prevent your food in a restaurant from being under cooked and getting food poisoning andd you can't predict when someone's gona slide tackle with their cleats up.

the question I would have is what is so diffrent about an individual that practices martial arts that a physical action should be proformed to demonstrate respect?

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by sweeper

the question I would have is what is so diffrent about an individual that practices martial arts that a physical action should be proformed to demonstrate respect?

It's a matter of your "style". The bowing is very visible way of respect. Language is another. There are more subbel ways. But respect is always shown.

If we can agree on the term " respect (or disrespect) is always shown", we can then move on to the "why that way". The respect in bowing is to show that you don't think that your better.
If you think you are better, in one way or the other, your ego is showing and that will hinder you in seeing things as they are., and getting the best out of the situation.

It's different than the bigger ego = more respect you see in the western hemisphere. Were people get so full of themselfs that they can't see what really is happening around them.

Back to the styl, you don't have to bow to show respect. It can be done anyway, but probably the best way so other people understand it. There's no use giving the middel finger as a sign of respect if people are of another understanding.

/Yari

 

[H@pkid0ist]

Let me put it all very simply. All the traditional aspects of training, to include bowing are ment to help build a persons character. How you do things is up to you, you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, and learning the aspects of the arts that are more than just the fighting go a long way in teaching a person about respect, honor, dignity, and having pride V/S being prideful.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by H@pkid0ist

Let me put it all very simply. All the traditional aspects of training, to include bowing are ment to help build a persons character. How you do things is up to you, you have to decide what kind of person you want to be, and learning the aspects of the arts that are more than just the fighting go a long way in teaching a person about respect, honor, dignity, and having pride V/S being prideful.

I couldn't agree more! If you are having trouble with a bow, then maybe you are not grasping the totality of martial arts.

 

[sweeper]

exactly yari, respect is comon in most any sport, boxing you touch gloves, most field sports you shake hands, fencing there are salutes, same with kali. everyone's got their ritual.

My point was just that just because someone doesn't bow doesn't mean they are disrespectfull.

 

[Matt Stone]

I think it is important to remember that martial arts, especially in today's modern world, are not wholly about learning to fight. The lessons that are taught are intended, in many ways at many levels, to develop the student into a complete person with insight and skills that are borne out of the crucible of combative training.

The entire purpose behind the development of the do arts out of the jutsu arts in Japan was because the "powers that be" realized that despite the ban imposed by the Occupation Forces after WWII on the practice of martial arts of a combative nature, benefits were still to be had from learning martial arts whose "teeth" had been removed. Foremost among these were judo and kendo, whose beliefs, theories and training environments promoted the development of respectful behavior, keen insight, understanding of timing and strategy, etc.

I remember once reading a quote attributed to Jigaro Kano that gave additional description on the importance of the bow... Something to the effect that the bow meant "that the practice we are about to engage in is to our mutual benefit, that I mean no disrespect or injury to you, and that my apologies are implied when you are thrown."

As stated by sweeper, there are ritual demosntrations of respect in every combative art - the training is not solely about who becomes the better fighter, but also about how the fight is conducted... Even boxers, who many people hold to be uneducated brawlers (I know I did until I made friends with a boxer, learned about boxing and realized the depth of information contained in boxing gyms), hold respect to be an important consideration in their sport, and a disrespectful boxer is one that is fresh out of friends in the gym...

Those who refuse to bow, touch gloves, salute with their weapons of choice - these are the brawlers and street thugs. Those who understand the importance of respect and honor - these are those who walk the warrior's path.

Just my over the top 2 yen.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Judo-kid,

Interesting question.

I have observed various MA groups in the US and noticed on occasions that they try to emulate Japanese or Asian customs and in some cases do very strange things.
I observed one dojo running around yelling "Osuuu" every other word is one example.
It is not used that way or in the manner in Japan.........the country and manners they are trying to incorporate into their training.
I think the classic example of "Asian mode over kill" is in Karate Kid 1 in the bad guys dojo where everyone is jumping to their feet and screaming like it was boot camp or something. Never seen it in an Asian dojo.

As for bowing:

Bowing serves several practical purposes.

One it "signals" the beginning or end of something.............class, sparring, etc.
It also serves as a silent greeting when entering the dojo. By bowing silently you acknowledge others that are training with out disturbing them.

Oddly in Okinawan dojo's their tends to be less formality than in Japanese dojos.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I observed one dojo running around yelling "Osuuu" every other word is one example.

I have a friend you has studied the japanese langueage, and MA . He told me that this is a misconception. "Osuu" is short for 'something I cann't pronounce' that means 'good evening'. So when people (westerns) run around screaming "Osuu" there yelling good evening. Now if they mean it because there going to put out somebodys lights I don't know.......


/Yari

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yari



I have a freind you has studied the japanese langueage, and MA . He told me that this is a misconception. "Osuu" is short for 'something I cann't pronounce' that means 'good evening'. So when people (westerns) run around screaming "Osuu" there yelling good evening. Now if they mean it because there going to put out somebodys lights I don't know.......


/Yari

I was told it is short for Ohaiyogozaimasu...............don't know for sure since I have heard several other variations on the definition.
Japanese will say Ohaiyogozaimasu in seemingly odd situations............for example when they first meet someone at work no matter if it is 8AM or 8PM. Weird uh...........
I do know that about 99% of the westerners I have seen use it do so incorrectly.
It is also said to be a rather vulgar way of greeting someone. Which is why I never use it.

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




I was told it is short for Ohaiyogozaimasu
It is also said to be a rather vulgar way of greeting someone. Which is why I never use it.

Yeps, was the word I was thinking about. I've also heard that the 'masu' on the end was a polite ending. Making it very polite.
Go figur? I'll ask my friend.

/Yari

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yari



Yeps, was the word I was thinking about. I've also heard that the 'masu' on the end was a polite ending. Making it very polite.
Go figur? I'll ask my friend.

/Yari

-masu does make it polite.

If you are extremely close to someone you can just use Ohaiyo-
Not really used towards folks in a higher position than yourself though.
Osu it would seem is several notches below this on the "polite scale".

 

[Matt Stone]

RyuShiKan's explanations are correct... Though he speaks way more Japanese than I do, this is one thing I have done a little research on in my never ending quest for details...

The Ohayogozaimasu explanation seems to be the correct one. It is also said that the term is highly vulgar, akin to going about saying "yo, whassup" to everyone and their brother, regardless of occasion, although (as with many things Japanese) there is really no accurate direct translation...

The term osu is used in the Japanese Ground Self Defense Forces (haven't worked with the Air or Maritime SDF, so I can't comment on them) as a general catch-all greeting, similar to the use of "hooah" in the Army.

Bottom line, the use of osu in the US makes American karateka look like buffoons to many of their overseas counterparts that know better... It is just that in some occassions, their Japanese hosts are too polite to correct the mistakes of their guests (thereby causing them further embarassment).

I doubt it will ever stop, though, no matter how much folks who know better try to correct those that don't...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk


It's typical that MMA'ers come in, spouting the same thing ...
Kata's are useless, MMA is the only effective art, traditions in
MA is pointless, 99.9% of all fights go to through ground, and
so on.

I think he has a legit issue here.
It is rather odd to bow to another country's flag or a photo of someone if it is not part of your own culture.
Tell ya what, I would rather have someone like him in my dojo who actually stops and says "Hey what are we doing this for?" than the usual "monkey see monkey do" types that never wonder about anything.

Originally posted by Kirk

I tell ya .. my contention is that you come here looking for some
kind of validation of your superiority or the superiority or your
art. Well that seems pointless to me, it's not going to happen.
And if you're not interested in what "traditional" m.a.ists believe,
then why post here? Why don't you just stick to the grappling,
judo, MMA forums, and get validated by your own kind .. which
seems to be the goal anyways.

Well if he went to a MMA thread he wouldn't get to many different opinions now would he..........
I would imagine that since this is a traditional MA thread this would be the place to bring up such a topic.
(BTW, Judoka bow as well)
It's a good thing we have such an "impartial" moderator such as yourself on the job to keep us in line too.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Bottom line, the use of osu in the US makes American karateka look like buffoons to many of their overseas counterparts that know better... It is just that in some occassions, their Japanese hosts are too polite to correct the mistakes of their guests (thereby causing them further embarassment).

Maybe the best way might be if you don't fully know the nuance of the word you are saying you shouldn't say it.
Your right the Japanese will rarely if ever correct your Japanese too by the way.
As an example I used a word for years incorrectly only to find out one day by accident that I had been making a mistake.
I used the word "mofuku" for blanket................when actually what I should have said was "mofu".
Mofuku means the special funeral clothes that Japanese wear when someone dies.
So for years I sounded like I was going out of my head saying "mofuku" and my wife, her parents as other Japanese never said a word.
It was actually my son that corrected me saying "Mofuku??? Dad what the hell are you going on about......nobody died."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I think he has a legit issue here.
It is rather odd to bow to another country's flag or a photo of someone if it is not part of your own culture.
Tell ya what, I would rather have someone like him in my dojo who actually stops and says "Hey what are we doing this for?" than the usual "monkey see monkey do" types that never wonder about anything.

I agree. I think one learns better when one is allowed to ask questions and gets answers. Real answers, not the "cuz we do" that happens alot. Take any form, technique, etc and ask a ton of questions on why you are doing something a certain way. You often learn something new when your dealing with an experienced instructor.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

It's a good thing we have such an "impartial" moderator such as yourself on the job to keep us in line too.

Mods are allowed their own opinions. When they are speaking as mods they are required to indicate it.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

It is the student's questions that actually sharpen the instructor's own knowledge base...perhaps the instructor never really thought about a particular aspect of a given movement or, in this case, custom...

The students typically have one primary instructor from which they learn...the instuctor, however, has any number of students to learn from, provided he/she doesn't allow ego to interfere with that potential for learning...a lot of folks use "tradition" as a means to avoid answering questions.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

It is the student's questions that actually sharpen the instructor's own knowledge base...perhaps the instructor never really thought about a particular aspect of a given movement or, in this case, custom...

The students typically have one primary instructor from which they learn...the instuctor, however, has any number of students to learn from, provided he/she doesn't allow ego to interfere with that potential for learning...a lot of folks use "tradition" as a means to avoid answering questions.

:asian:
chufeng

Well said.
I have learned a lot from my students simply because they think of and ask questions that I don't think of.