Old Master vs Young Gun

[Bob Hubbard]

The question was raised on Budoseek on if a younger 'prime of life' type could best the old master.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2710

My position is that the old master in a real world fight would most likely best his younger less experienced opponent.

What are your thoughts?

:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
The question was raised on Budoseek on if a younger 'prime of life' type could best the old master.

http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2710

My position is that the old master in a real world fight would most likely best his younger less experienced opponent.

What are your thoughts?

:asian:

The Ol' young vs. old argument eh? Depends, same system, different teachers, lotsa variables there. What were/are the experiences of said opponents in their art?

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

That Orin guy should prove his point. Challenge Don Wilson,
Superfoot Wallace, Chuck Norris, Tom Kelly, Mike Pick to a match.
Talk a LOT of smack, to make them come at him. Hell, no need to
even do it in a ring, just call them out!

He'd more than have his **** handed to him.

 

[Rich Parsons]

The Two Old Masters, I have had the privilege to train with in the FMA's could easily had me my head. This is not mysticism, even though I respect both of them and would not try to get inside their defense. I have just enough knowledge to realize that I can hold my own on the street against the average person and even teach others, yet when they just step it up and or test me, they always could just hit me at their will. Now there is something to be said for saying I was not trying to hit them, but all I was doing was trying to defend myself. And if I could not do that at will with them, then the statement that I could take the Old Master is just laughable.

Now let me approach this from another point of view.

Let me assume that I can take the Old Master. Why? Why would I want to? It is the Young Buck mentality that causes many an Old Master to not teach everything to everyone. In this way, timing and techniques get lost. Show your instructor respect. If you believe they are not true then move on. If you believe the art is not what you are looking for then move on. Do not bad mouth them, just move on.

If you show your instructor the respect they deserve then just maybe you might get the whole system.


Just my thoughts

 

[fringe_dweller]

You made a nice point in the other thread about Masters who continue to train and don't just sit on the sidelines getting wiser and more out of shape. It would be interesting to see how long the body can continue without degeneration (of a marked degree) under the cirumstances where you continue training. I think the problem is that people have a preconceived notion that old masters are those who look like yoda - walking stick, not very spry etc. If someone trained hard until the age of seventy, I would love to see their fitness, flexibility and strength levels.

Respectfully,

 

[Rocky]

Truth and martial arts two things that rarely go together.

Lets look at this a few different ways. You always hear the following , " my instructor was so much better then me I couldn't touch him". And of course your instructor aways tells you about how his instructor was so good he could never have matched him. So basically we are to beleave that we will never get better each generation will never be as good as the privious. Then why the hell train, you are wasting your time!!!! This pattern of thinking deducts that eventually there will come a day when the MA's will be so piss poor in quality that comotose quadrapalegic would easily defeat any MA student.

Another way of looking at it is you usually can not beat your instructor because you haven't reached his level YET!!! and of course if you are any kind of decent person, you must realize that just because you maybe able to best your instructor does not mean you can't learn from him. Tommy Hearns had Emanuell Stewart, Ali had Angelo Dundee, Tyson ( when he was good ) had Cus D'Mato. Does anyone actually belave any of these trainers could beat any of there fighters, even if they were all in their primes!!!

Here's is how old Uncle Rock was taught, my goal is to someday be better then my instructors, in somecases I have reached that goal, as I have had many different instructors, my main one now GM Buot I am still far from being his equal, but someday I will be as good as him, in fact I think I can be better!!!! And you know why???? Because GM Buot is going to make me better, he gives me the tools and shares his knowledge with me, and if I practice and train hard enough I can reach that goal. If I don't reach that goal it is my fault and my fault only, and I will have done him a grave dis service.

And when they plant me at the local worm farm someday I hope that I will have produced students that are better then I.

Rocky

 

[sweeper]

well presuming both fighters use the same system and the master is the teacher or teacher's teacher of the young gun,

1: I would argue that if you are dealing with most any kind of weapon than the "master" is going to win just because of the incredable amount of variables that using a weapon against a weapon in combat can create, the master simply will have more experience and will be able to "out manuever" the younger guy. Also genneraly weapons don't require the same amount of raw ability as hand - hand fighting (most anyone hit with a knife is going to bleed but if you are real big and have a strong jaw you might have a better chance in a fist fight) so that timing and experience are much more important than speed and strength in some regards.

2: Un-armed is kinda up in the air and I think that depends on the system used.. someone who only only does UFC style fighting (or any ring sport for that matter) will have a prime and peak of ability and an older master although posably very good may not be able to overcome a more youthfull fighter. Another reason ring fighters may be able to overcome their masters is that the rules in ring fights make it so there is less to worry about, limiting what you practice yet practicing for the same amount of time means you can get better much faster.. But in other systems that aproach fighting in a diffrent manner, the master could/would have an advantage.

 

[chufeng]

I knew a "hot-shot" 2nd degree black-sash in our system who challenged our teacher, once...

He lost...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[MartialArtist]

It really depends

The older one has more experience, more skill, more knowledge.

The younger one has speed, agility, power, and all the other physical attributes.

In the ring, mat, etc., I put my money on the younger guy at the professional level as in a professional muay thai match, or a professional tournament, UFC, etc.

In real life, the older one is usually more effecient. In teaching, the older one usually has more knowledge to give. In regular challenges that aren't in the "ring with rules" set, I put my money on the older guy.

But it really just depends

 

[KennethKu]

I tend to agree with Martial Artist. It really depends. There are too many parameters involved. Generally, it is very hard to escape the limitation aging brought on.

Some people age well. Some don't. Some arts make use of brute force (eg MT). Some don't (Aikido).

 

[ace]

Youth can Prevale, it is a powerful tool
But Experiance is always a plus.

I've been in this situation before
& have had sucess as the Young Gun.

But nothing ever came easy.

 

[Deathtrap101]

I dont speak from ALOT of experience(Actually, very little), but from what do know(beleive):Strength, speed, stamina and all that fun youthfull stuff is great, but when it comes to experience and technique(and im talking the kind that comes from the old masters that are still able to practice their art), it cant be beat(and please noboday take that so litarally that i mean to say its completely invincible).

This thread seems all to similar to the 'my art is better than yours' scenario, but hey! thats why we have the forum boards.

:jediduel:

 

[yilisifu]

Reminds me of a story regarding karate master Hidy Ochiai and one of his younger black belts who, tired of traditional karate, went into "full contact" karate.

He did well and won some titles and then returned to the dojo one day to challenge Mr. Ochiai to a real "full ocntact" fight. In public. Ochiai agreed. A date was set and the promoters had a field day.

Ochiai had never worn the marshmallow hand/foot pads and he felt very awkward in them as he entered the ring on the day of the bout. The first two rounds ended with neither contestant landing a blow. In fact, Ochiai never threw a single punch...

As the third round began, Ochiai settled into his fighting posture and when his former student came into range, he launched a reverse punch and knocked him out. Cold. One blow.

When the MC asked him why he hadn't punched until the third round, he said (very matter-of-factly), "I wanted the spectators to get their money's worth."
He could've done it right away in the first round but didn't want the audience to feel cheated. So he waited until the third.

 

[bob919]

i say the younger guy has the advantage cause he (should be) faster,stronger, more agile and have better endurance. young people can be jst as skilled at a young age older people may have seen more fights and have the experience but a younger practitooner with a good knowledge of martial arts should be able to take him or questions should be asked. if however you mean a young fighter who is relativily inexperienced in the world of martial arts the older practioner could have the advantage

in UFC or Muay Thai an older bloke wouldn't stand a chance same goes for boxing IMO

older guys who can beat up multiple opponents wih ease are very rare (mr miagi is a fraud)

think about it everything is in the younger guys favour except experience, if the master has lots of experience of full contact fights (most dont) then that experience could carry him through but otherwise i doubt it

look at the full contact fighting muay thai UFC kickboxing etc do you see anyone at 60-70 doing this? no you dont even see 35 yearolds competeing in these events

 

[Astra]

Well, it all really depends. If the "student" is more active and learns faster then the "master" ever did, then it might be viable that the student may win. Otherwise, the experience is just means so much. Also depends though, how much more experience the master has over the student.

 

[SRyuFighter]

The old master would win. These guys are amazing.

 

[white belt]

If an Athletic Contest with rules such as the UFC or Muy Thai the younger man's odds favor him. That is if he has any refinement. Reference Shamrock vs. Ortiz. In a "real situation" I would say the Older Master. This is assuming he is a "real deal" knowing anatomy and physics like my TKD GM does. I have worked out with Kickboxers, MMA guys, and Grapplers. They are TOUGH people. Some younger Traditionalists have shown me the same. If I had to choose between a real fight against one of these young toughs, (no rules), or my "60 something" GM who looks like a little Panda Bear. Bring on the young guy, PLEASE. One brief move from my GM and I would have the Groundhogs delivering my mail. By the time your senses detect movement, it's too late. I don't have a clear explanation beyond knowing anatomy intimately and physics/positioning.

Just my own personal experience,
white belt

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kirk
That Orin guy should prove his point. Challenge Don Wilson,
Superfoot Wallace, Chuck Norris, Tom Kelly, Mike Pick to a match.
Talk a LOT of smack, to make them come at him. Hell, no need to
even do it in a ring, just call them out!

He'd more than have his **** handed to him.

Folks this Orin fellow seems to be the latest “Troll” on Budoseek.

Orin fits into several categories in Sharp Phil’s Troll Guide.
A definitive work on “troll” spotting I might add.

Phil's Field Guide to Trolls
An Analysis of Forum Fauna

A troll is a bulletin board participant who posts for one or both of two reasons: 1) to disrupt; 2) to gain attention.
The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.

-- Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. Pursued by Troll Bashers (see Natural Predators below), the Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice -- all the while continuing to respond to them.

The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own -- often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat.

However, if you want to see what Hayden Ebert a.k.a. Orin thinks is bunkai have a look at the wevsite below.
Watch the “Dave Franks (5 Dan), Steve Nowacki (5th Dan) and Dryw Wyvern (5th Dan) demostrating Naifuanchin application” & “Martin Johnston (5th Dan) and Dave Franks (5th Dan) using Naifuanchin in freestyle and adapting it”.
I saw them and couldn’t stop laughing.

http://freespace.virgin.net/zsd.karate/videogal.htm

 

[RyuShiKan]

Here is another one with Hayden Ebert a.k.a. Orin from the same URL http://freespace.virgin.net/zsd.karate/videogal.htm

Watch this one “Martin Johnston (5th Dan) and Hayden Ebert (4th Dan) freestyling”:rofl: :rofl:

Notice Martin Johnston not using his left hand at all or either of his feet.

This stuff looks like really, really bad Chinese push hands....

 

[jfarnsworth]

This would obviously have to depend on the type of fight the rules the enviornment. I think the older guy would win however.