Black belt - is this ok?

Daniel Sullivan

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@daniel sullivan

thank you for suming this, i didn't know it until now! plus i practiced at home a lot..

for information, i stay no with it. i know it's maybe not so good for some serious organisation of tkd to give bb for ten months of training, and lots of people despise it. i don't want to put in question name of any organisation, instructor, or my self. i hope you understand it, and probably most of the people would act same.
No problem.

Just to clarify: I do not advocate short periods from white to black belt. Generally, four years is considered about right in a traditional school (as opposed to a commercial school teaching a traditional art).

But I do not begrudge the student. If a student isn't ready and the instructor belts them anyway, that is on the instructor, not the student (in most cases).

But what is really important? Whether or not your instructor awarded you a first dan after ten months or how hard you train for the next ten months?

What you do with where you are is more important than how quickly you were given a black belt. From what you say, you train very hard and are very dedicated. Keep it up and enjoy!!

Daniel
 
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TigerLove

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Ivan Location Croatia Primary Art and Ranking Taekwondo Organizations Moosoolwon, International taekwando federation I hate top break this to you but most of your info is on file here on Martial Talk, so just by checking I know somethings about you.

Well Ivan I would like to say hello from Texas and of course my name is Terry, I belong to the USAT and A.A.U. we do both ITF and KKW TKD and I call it traditional and the sport side of TKD. I hope you remain with the board, let me ask you this in your country is it regulated by region or is it like here i the states where anybody can open and run a school? I know in Korea you need permission to get one open, just courious.

Well yes, some info is in my profile. Nice to knowing you Terry :)

I'm not sure am i understand you question. To run school here, you must have rank which gives you permission to do it. That rank is declared by organisation, and i think it's 4th dan.
 

Malleus

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Interesting thread.

I think 10 months is a staggeringly short time.

That said:
TigerLove did have previous MA experience.
They did train intensely, a hell of a lot.

I think that a black belt should be a sign that you've achieved a certain level of technique and knowledge about your art. Some people will be exceptional at taking this stuff on board, so I suppose it's possible to do it in such a short timeframe. Nicely done.

Naturally, we can't tell you anything solid without watching you do your thing, and even then only TKDists would have enough of an idea to comment. If you're not sure, pressure test yourself. Enter a competition, fight other blackbelts, see how it works out.
 

terryl965

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Well yes, some info is in my profile. Nice to knowing you Terry :)

I'm not sure am i understand you question. To run school here, you must have rank which gives you permission to do it. That rank is declared by organisation, and i think it's 4th dan.

What I am asking does your country regulate who can teach a martial art or not? I guess by your answer it would be no. I have never liked the country trying to control whu teaches what art, too much politics.
 

Earl Weiss

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Lets put it into perspective: Average time to BB in most commercial schools in the US is 18-24 months in TKD, with students going to a one hour class class 2 times a week on average. That comes out to 144 hours in 18 months and 208 hours for 24 months. Six two hour classes per week in ten months, averaging four weeks per month, comes out to 480 hours.

So if your only question is the amount of time it took you from white to black, in terms of time actually spent in formal training, you ahve more than twice that of the average two year black belt.


Daniel

I cannot speak to averages. Only to Experience. Most ITF schools I am familiar with would average 3 classes a week for 3 years or 450 hours.

Now, as General Choi points out in his book expedited schedules are possible BUT the shorter the time in Calender months the more total classroom hours that are needed. (I don't have the book handy but a comaparison might be 600 hours for a 2 year program.)This reflects a persons ability, both physical and mental to assimilate given amounts of information over time.
 

Earl Weiss

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Interesting. , the ITF, as originally structured by General Choi, also required Kwang-Gye and Po-Hoon for BB rank.


No, Kwang Gae and Po Eun are learned after reaching first dan and are 2 of the 3 required folr 2nd Dan.
 

Earl Weiss

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I do think that you should try to answer Earl's questions regarding federation and president, as that will not say anything about your master or school. You certainly don't have to, but Earl is very knowledgeable and can likely give you a very good perspective on your question. But organizations differ in time in grade averages, so it may be helpful to let him know.

Daniel

I ask for a more important reason. Long story short.

Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about. This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor.
Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) . Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training. Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off. Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF.

I then decided to always ask the basic questions i.e. cert. # etc.
 
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TigerLove

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@malleus

i had previous experience with ma, ninjutsu for and sport called kickbox. about competitions, i fighted black belts two times, because in fights weight and year is what makes a category, not a belt. but i was blue then.

@terry

i think when wtf is in question, our country must give you certificate to run school. in itf that's not the case. don't hold me to tight for this words, i'm not 100% sure. probably someone else knows better.

--

i'll try to give some opinnion to my bb for 10 months:

i hold it ok. bb is worth only in your school, as i said you can find different bbs in school across yours. we may talk now whatever, but from 10 bbs from 10 schools probably all of them have different knowledge and time spended in tkd. it's all up to school. what really counts and what is really matter what you do after becaming 1. dan. testing for 2. , 3. and so on dans goes out of your school, and then it worth everywhere same.

i am not sayin somebody can give bbs just like that, but if a student really putting himself into it and he's doing it good, maybe time is in second place. bb is a beggining, white belt which started to train, and it's unfair to judge him for thing that is almost completely is up to his master, his school, and his country, and he has just started.

i know few peoples who trained for a year and get a bb, and yes they masters didn't respect required time for bb. but these days, those people has mastered and now are 4. or 5. dan or even runs their schools. where their masters wrong?

some may dislike this approach, some not, but nothing shouldn't be generalized, it's the instructor who knows what is the best for his student.

i believe that this approach may be interpreted in two ways: or instructor finds the best way to gain some fee ; or instructors finds the best way to motivate student to train, and become a master one day.

whatever is in my case, i love taekwondo and i will continue learning it, hope as my health and my knees serves me.
 

J Ellis

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i hold it ok. bb is worth only in your school, as i said you can find different bbs in school across yours. we may talk now whatever, but from 10 bbs from 10 schools probably all of them have different knowledge and time spended in tkd. it's all up to school. what really counts and what is really matter what you do after becaming 1. dan. testing for 2. , 3. and so on dans goes out of your school, and then it worth everywhere same.

Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?

You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?

Just curious.

Joel
 

granfire

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Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?

You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?

Just curious.

Joel

He does have a point tho!
 

IcemanSK

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I ask for a more important reason. Long story short.

Some years ago met a nice instructor and students who were ITF BBs in my area. I was incredulous that there was an ITF school I did not know about. This was the 1980s and there were a few old line splinter schools the General let run outside the main groups, so it was possible. Didn't say anything to them since I was an outsider and they liked their instructor.
Later the school has a meltdown due to the instructor's divorce (I think we may have a former member on this BBS) . Students get referred to me to continue with ITF certs. and training. Get their old certs. so they can pick up where they left off. Their certs were totally bogus. Instructor had been ripping them off for 10 years or so. Put a bad taste in their mouth for the ITF.

I then decided to always ask the basic questions i.e. cert. # etc.

As a student from the above school that Master Weiss is referring to, he is spot on in his reasoning. Had we all asked simple questions, it would have saved us all a lot of time & money. Many folks are told "the certificate is in the mail" or "we're an off-shoot of "X" organization" when they never were a part of that organization in the first place.

But in general, people need to check out schools & instructors thoroughly. It takes little to open a school & certificates are easily printed or outright forged.
 
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TigerLove

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Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument. You're saying a 1st degree BB is only meaningful in the school that awards it, but a higher degree of BB is/should be respected the same everywhere?

You've also implied that if a BB is granted that is undeserved it's not a major problem since after two more years of training the individual will be at a BB level when he or she tests for 2nd degree BB. So are they now a 2nd degree BB with 1st degree BB skills or have they completely caught up and are now a legitimate 2nd degree BB?

Just curious.

Joel

Yes i think bb is mostly worth only in your school. it offcourse means that you started to learn and that you certainly trained for sometime and learned something. but that time and that learned is from school to school. for higher dans you have several masters who tests you, and most of them had nothing to do with your school.

for second claim, from student to student and school to school. i seen many 2dans with 1dan skills. but again say it maybe doesn't matter since when testing for 3rd dan in front of several masters, you must be skilled as 3rd degree belt, however you know. at least i see it so.
 
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TigerLove

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This simple statement could answer the hundreds of pages produced on this subject.

offcourse i define it, and it's even doesn't matter to me, from my very personal look, because i know what i know and no belt will change that. i will train how much i want and put myself into it how i want and also no belt will change it. anyway i wear it just at competitions, which i not going to more then twice in a half a year (ok and on seminars, which i am going often as possible).

but even if i define it, i was curious what others think about it.

i put on focus just to train your art and love it, so as love other martial artists and other people. belts are what comes by the way. i would be most happy if i was in some country closer to people from this forum, so we could sometimes train and have some fun later, instead of arguing here.
 

Marginal

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This simple statement could answer the hundreds of pages produced on this subject.

Yeah, but the people that think they 100% deserve their belt aren't likely to be posting on a MA forum. They're too busy swapping orgs etc to increase their rank as quickly as possible.
 

Cirdan

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I train Taekwon do for 10 months, six times a week, two hours training, most of the time intensive and hard training.

I earned black belt.

I asked my master is is ok, he sad it is, and if i missed something, i have almost two years until i can go for 2nd Dan, so in that time i will compensate it.

He sad i completely deserve my black belt.

Congrats on your belt, if your master says you deserve it then you do.

Two hours six times a week is pretty hard if you have to balance to with school or a job. On the other hand it is not that impressive either.

"Is this ok?"
Can`t awnser that, I have never been to your shool. Generally I will say black belts I know have put in more hours total and attended a lot of camps over a longer time span. Training as an instructor is also often mandatory.
 

StudentCarl

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...belts are what comes by the way.

Learning TKD is a path to better mastery of myself. That path has no end; it's not a box to be checked. Belts do show other people that I've been around awhile, but my manner and technique show you more than my belt does. That idea--that seeing someone in action tells you more than their belt does--runs throughout this thread.
 

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