Anti-grappling.

[drop bear]

The hard part is getting to that point without getting head butted, its not a fits all situation but if you are going to clinch on the street it is something to be concerned about. With double underhooks you are vulnerable to a double palm slap to the ears.

It would be a pretty munty palm slap.

 

[K-man]

Well keep in mind, that opinion wasn't about WC, it was about anti-grappling. I view WC as a fine martial art. I feel that when certain exponents make wild claims like some of the anti-grappling videos have, then there's a problem.

That said, I'll be in northern Ohio and Southern Michigan until January. Are there any WC schools you recommend I visit?

Really? :spitcoffee: I need a new keyboard!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Really? :spitcoffee: I need a new keyboard!

In fairness to Hanzou, he has made the point in previous comments that he is not criticizing WC as a martial art. Rather he is criticizing those particular WC practitioners who step outside their area of expertise and offer silly applications for grappling situations.

 

[Argus]

I have nothing but respect and admiration for those WC practitioners who have spent time working with legitimate skilled grapplers to develop and test methods for making their art work against grappling. Some of the WC exponents on this board, such as yak sao, say they have put in that time. Kudos to them! Some WC folks on YouTube, such as Mr. Izzo and Mr. Young, have clearly done the same. Kudos to them as well.

Where I can not offer commendations is for those practitioners of WC (or any other art) who have elected to offer instruction on fighting against grappling which is clearly based on armchair theorizing and has not been tested with actual grapplers. I don't get as riled up about it as Hanzou does, because I understand that Sturgeons Law certainly applies to martial arts and it's not my job to police the 90%.

Suppose the countryside was being ravaged by roaming gangs of rogue Wing Chun practitioners and so I felt compelled to develop a specific "Anti-WC" curriculum. I might have some ideas about tactics and techniques to try based on my (minimal) live exposure to WC, my experiences sparring with other types of striking styles, and various videos of WC practitioners fighting other people. Possibly some of those ideas might even be valid. If I started offering instruction based on those untested ideas, I would be a fool. Before I started presenting myself as an expert on the subject, I would need to find a bunch of skilled WC practitioners to work with, preferably from different lineages, and spend some serious time testing and refining my approach to the topic.

Excellent post. Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue as well.

And, much amused at your example. Anyone want to join my Wing Chun gang? Grab your poles and knives! Oh, and let's get some Keun Kuit tattoos!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Excellent post. Pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue as well.

And, much amused at your example. Anyone want to join my Wing Chun gang? Grab your poles and knives! Oh, and let's get some Keun Kuit tattoos!

See, this is why it's important to get feedback from the people you are training to fight. I was thinking through possible approaches for handling chain punches and trapping hands, but I didn't even consider that I need counters for the long pole and butterfly knives as well.

 

[K-man]

In fairness to Hanzou, he has made the point in previous comments that he is not criticizing WC as a martial art. Rather he is criticizing those particular WC practitioners who step outside their area of expertise and offer silly applications for grappling situations.

Maybe, maybe not. It's a fine line.

Did this one cross it?

And where can we go to see these WC masters using their grappling skills against highly skilled grapplers? When has a WC master stepped up and challenged professional grapplers to show his/her skill in a public arena or showcase?

Oh that's right, never.

As Tony said, Bjj has already proven that it is effective against striking. Say what you will about the Gracies and Bjj, but at least they stepped to the plate and put their butts on the line to prove their claims. We have hundreds of challenge matches and thousands of MMA and NHB fights to pull from to validate their claims. No one doubts the validity of BJJ versus a person punching and kicking, but the difference is that the exponents of Bjj earned that respect.

WC exponents who push anti-grappling can't say the same.

"And where can we go to see these WC masters using their grappling skills against highly skilled grapplers?" That is a challenge to all WC masters, nothing even to do with anti-grappling.


And this is pretty specific. "WC exponents who push anti-grappling can't say the same." That is denigrating all WC anti-grappling, not just bad technique.

I have a fair idea of Mr Hanzou's opinion of WC and most other MAs, especially TMAs from countless posts.
:asian:

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I've been sitting back watching the sparks fly on this thread but have finally decided to weigh in.

I'm a Wing Tsun guy...have been for 20 years now. I trained with Emin Boztepe for 10 of those years and have seen his anti grappling taught first hand. I've seen him personally demonstrate it on countless people...yes even BJJ people (*GASP).
Let's leave him aside though, he's a big boy and can stand up for himself. Let's talk about my hands on experience.

I have tried anti grappling concepts numerous times against all types of grapplers, ranging from high school wrestlers, to catch wrestlers to judoka to BJJ people. I've also applied it to good old corn fed country boys who have no real grappling experience other than being strong as a freakin ox and willing to get down and dirty and plant your face in the dirt.
And guess what?... it works. Is it a magic bullet that gets you out without any effort? No. It is taking the form of MA that I chose to train in and putting in long hard hours of developing my skills then applying these skills against non compliant training partners.

Grapplers love what they do, I get it. So do I. I don't bash what they do, in fact I appreciate their skill and am always thankful when one of them drops by to allow me the privilege to train with them. We don't thump our chests and call what the other does BS...we learn from each other and move on.
It's easy to be a forum/keyboard warrior. If the anti grappling you see is bogus in your mind, find your local "anti grappler" and put it to the test....the 2 of you just may learn something together.

WHAT?

I'm sorry, but I have it on good authority from this and countless other threads that BJJ is invincible and WC anti-grappling is fraudulent crap. Surely you must be mistaken?



Sorry, couldn't help myself

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And this is pretty specific. "WC exponents who push anti-grappling can't say the same." That is denigrating all WC anti-grappling, not just bad technique.

Hanzou seems to be using the term "anti-grappling" exclusively to refer to the silly stuff that shows no understanding of grappling. He indicated no complaints with the YouTube videos of Dominick Izzo or Jin Young (chinaboxer).

He has been (unnecessarily, IMO) rather strident in his commentary on certain martial arts and training methods. However he has made at least a couple of comments prior to the one you were reacting to in which he stated that WC is a perfectly good martial art within its domain of expertise.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

I will give you this. WC does not demo well. it comes across rather weak and even kind of silly looking. And with anything, there is both good and bad and everything in between. Don't rely on what you see on youtube to make an informed decision about WC.
You really need to find someone who is decent at their craft and give it a go.
You may be quite surprised at what you find.

And now your even saying that YouTube doesn't prove everything? That really is beyond the pale!


Ok, I'll stop now

 

[jezr74]

From a BJJ point of view, what are some examples of good "anti-grappling" principles and techniques that an MA person who prefers stand up could use to shut down a potential tangle with a ground fighter?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

From a BJJ point of view, what are some examples of good "anti-grappling" principles and techniques that an MA person who prefers stand up could use to shut down a potential tangle with a ground fighter?

1) You need to know how to prevent/break away from the clinch. A grappler can use the clinch to stifle your strikes and take you down. The second video in Kung Fu Wang's comment from 1:37 this afternoon shows some good approaches for this purpose.
2) You need to be able to stop a wrestler's shot. Learning how to sprawl is an important element of this. The first video in Kung Fu Wang's comment has some good examples. Drop bear's post from 3:53 yesterday shows another method which can work.
3) If you are taken down, you need to be able to escape the most common bad positions (mount, side mount, headlock) without getting your head pounded in. There are a few basic high-percentage escapes that you can use which will cover most street situations. (If things have gotten this far with an actual grappling expert, then you may be in some trouble.)
4) Know how to disengage and stand up safely from the ground.

For basic self-defense, that's all you need. If you are planning to compete in MMA, you also need submission defense so that you can survive long enough to escape if you are taken down.

Knowing how to strike effectively in the clinch without being taken down is another valuable skill. If you can't disengage from the clinch, you can inflict enough damage to make the other guy want to disengage.

In order to gain basic proficiency at these skills, you don't have to become really good at performing takedowns or controlling position on the ground yourself (although it doesn't hurt). You do need to understand how the takedowns and positional controls work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Allow me to put up this clip again. The "rhino (big fist)" strategy that I have designed for "anti-striking" does have good usage for "anti-grappling". There was no intention to use it for "anti-grappling" to start with, but when you connect both of your arm together, it's very difficult for your opponent to apply

- head lock,
- under hook,
- over hook,
- arm wrap,

on you. Also most of the Judo throws will have some difficulty to work on you too. Of course the wrestling bear hug, single leg, and double legs can still take you down. But at least you have covered a lot of "anti-grappling" areas.

 

[drop bear]

Sure. The point of "anti-grappling" is to prevent a grappler from using his grappling skills to control you, take you down, or submit you and thereby maintain a range where you can win using your strikes. Both clips do a decent job of showing techniques that someone who preferred striking could use to negate the clinch and the takedown in order to keep the fight in the striking range.

You are correct that these techniques are part of grappling. "Anti-grappling" is a subset of grappling.

If trained separatly but in grappling it isn't. Submissions is a sub set of grappling. But to say you don't train grappling just train submissions. Is just kind of weird.

 

[drop bear]

And now your even saying that YouTube doesn't prove everything? That really is beyond the pale!


Ok, I'll stop now

OK you tube does not prove everything but that does not negate YouTube. You would have to come up with either better evidence to counter. Or good reasons why the YouTube video is a poor example.

Not just slogan your way around it.

 

[drop bear]

WHAT?

I'm sorry, but I have it on good authority from this and countless other threads that BJJ is invincible and WC anti-grappling is fraudulent crap. Surely you must be mistaken?



Sorry, couldn't help myself

No the sarcasm is mostly correct. If you attempted to anti grapple a good grappler you would find it is ineffective. Just like any half look at a problem.

To apply anti grappling you have to have grappling first.

Mma we hit people on the ground. And that is technically anti grappling. But you can't hit people on the ground unless you can position yourself so that there is an opportunity to do so safely without getting caught in a submission.

There are very few shortcuts to acquiring skill.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It would be a pretty munty palm slap.

I am not sure what munty means but a double palm slap to the ears can be very painful, cause temporary to permanent deafness and can affect your balance The pressure wave produced by a hard slap to the ears can be extremely loud and disorienting. I once had a wad of wax lodged in my ear, I was deaf in that ear for 2 weeks and it was one of the most painful experiences I have ever had.

 

[drop bear]

I am not sure what munty means but a double palm slap to the ears can be very painful, cause temporary to permanent deafness and can affect your balance The pressure wave produced by a hard slap to the ears can be extremely loud and disorienting. I once had a wad of wax lodged in my ear, I was deaf in that ear for 2 weeks and it was one of the most painful experiences I have ever had.

I am not sure how you would position that double palm.

 

[drop bear]

I am not sure how you would position that double palm.

We need to look at training good head position. Otherwise your clinch won't work. It does coincidentally put you in the better position to head but. Which in pure grappling is a case of using pressure points applied to the oponants face with your forehead.

How to Practice proper head position in stance « Wrestling


This does not really make my point . but damn.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c6hrouH3iWU

 

[RTKDCMB]

I am not sure how you would position that double palm.

Like you were saying your prayers

This slapper looks a little too tense, keep the shoulders relaxed and you will have a faster slap and close the fingers.

 

[drop bear]

Like you were saying your prayers



This slapper looks a little too tense, keep the shoulders relaxed and you will have a faster slap and close the fingers.

And that is why the slapee will be in in a really nice position to be hit?

Actually considering you are probably being punched in the face while you are trying that I don't mind the shoulders.