I tend to agree with this. This is why Bruce was so stuck on being in the best shape possible. He always stated that if you are not in shape you cannot win in combat. He also beleived in a strong core and forearms. He spent hours on his forearms alone.
all ma are sport
- Thread starter Manny
- Start date
Nice in theroy but not really practical. What if the thoat is not a reachable target? Every is a heavy word. Even the word "most" would be to strong a word.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Good point, my feeling are that if a persons focus is on too many tournaments, then no matter what style you study, it is a sport.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
This has spun into an interesting discussion of SD vs. sport. I think it's shortsighted to be too far on either side of the issue, as TKD has much to offer for both. Yes there's a difference, but I think we make too much of it.
What is required for effective SD?
--situational awareness and an understanding of how violence develops
--appropriate response process(verbal skill and legal awareness to be defensible and avoid violence when possible)
--effective skill set to stop assailant(s) (good techniques on good targets with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired, injured, overdressed, in mud or snow, etc.
--+?
What is required for effective sport?
--ability to read and adapt to opponents, including when to attack, defend or counterattack
--ability to work within rules to win, maximizing points, minimizing penalites
--effective skill set to score points (good technique on target with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired and injured
--+?
1. I'll agree that TKD doesn't cover all of the aspects of SD, but it does add a great deal to the mental and physical conditioning needed to keep your cool WTSHTF.
2. (Pet peeve alert
On the SD side, I think too much time is spent on physical technique without practicing the situational awareness, verbal skills, legal knowledge, and adrenaline reactions that round out SD. You can have a great hammer fist to Adam's Apple, but if you cause death or great bodily harm without doing the rest right, you will regret it forever.
3. I think TKD is good for personal growth. I don't think that takes away from people who participate primarily for sport or SD. Some of the sport benefits support SD. As practitioners and teachers we just need to be clear about what is sport and what is SD. You really don't want your 8 year olds practicing 'knife hand to throat' on the playground anyway.
4. I won't argue with anyone who wants to focus primarily on SD or sport--I too invest a great deal of practice and study related to both. The SD has real, perhaps lifesaving value. The sport is so good for my mind and body that it likely has life-extending value. Both are good.
Regardless of your focus, full contact sparring with unfamiliar opponents further develops resilience and challenges one to keep a clear head and adapt when hurt or getting beat on. I think that has value whether or not you ever set foot in a tournament.
Carl
What is required for effective SD?
--situational awareness and an understanding of how violence develops
--appropriate response process(verbal skill and legal awareness to be defensible and avoid violence when possible)
--effective skill set to stop assailant(s) (good techniques on good targets with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired, injured, overdressed, in mud or snow, etc.
--+?
What is required for effective sport?
--ability to read and adapt to opponents, including when to attack, defend or counterattack
--ability to work within rules to win, maximizing points, minimizing penalites
--effective skill set to score points (good technique on target with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired and injured
--+?
1. I'll agree that TKD doesn't cover all of the aspects of SD, but it does add a great deal to the mental and physical conditioning needed to keep your cool WTSHTF.
2. (Pet peeve alert
On the SD side, I think too much time is spent on physical technique without practicing the situational awareness, verbal skills, legal knowledge, and adrenaline reactions that round out SD. You can have a great hammer fist to Adam's Apple, but if you cause death or great bodily harm without doing the rest right, you will regret it forever.3. I think TKD is good for personal growth. I don't think that takes away from people who participate primarily for sport or SD. Some of the sport benefits support SD. As practitioners and teachers we just need to be clear about what is sport and what is SD. You really don't want your 8 year olds practicing 'knife hand to throat' on the playground anyway.
4. I won't argue with anyone who wants to focus primarily on SD or sport--I too invest a great deal of practice and study related to both. The SD has real, perhaps lifesaving value. The sport is so good for my mind and body that it likely has life-extending value. Both are good.
Regardless of your focus, full contact sparring with unfamiliar opponents further develops resilience and challenges one to keep a clear head and adapt when hurt or getting beat on. I think that has value whether or not you ever set foot in a tournament.
Carl
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Like in Roadhouse!
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I actually disagree with this to a point. There has to be some amount of skill. Strength, size and athleticism with a little skill will trump skill alone, but there has to be SOME amount of skill.
I see wrestlers who are stronger, faster, and more athletic all the time. I have no trouble at all with them until they pick up some fundamentals. Within a year or so, though, they've surpassed me. Stupid athletic kids!
Point is, skill can overcome unskilled physical gifts. But the scale is a sliding one where physical advantage plus a little skill can overtake just skill.
It's early. I hope this makes sense!
CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
Twin Fist has shown us all that TKD is t3h d3@dly and can only be used in the str33ts.
The art itself doesn't make it a sport, how you use it does. I do judo, jujutsu, and TKD. Can I use them as sport, most certainly. Can I use them as SD, absolutely. I will use a gi oriented osoto-gari in a tourney, but a throat grab osoto-gari in SD if need be.
The art itself doesn't make it a sport, how you use it does. I do judo, jujutsu, and TKD. Can I use them as sport, most certainly. Can I use them as SD, absolutely. I will use a gi oriented osoto-gari in a tourney, but a throat grab osoto-gari in SD if need be.
This has spun into an interesting discussion of SD vs. sport. I think it's shortsighted to be too far on either side of the issue, as TKD has much to offer for both. Yes there's a difference, but I think we make too much of it.
What is required for effective SD?
--situational awareness and an understanding of how violence develops
--appropriate response process(verbal skill and legal awareness to be defensible and avoid violence when possible)
--effective skill set to stop assailant(s) (good techniques on good targets with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired, injured, overdressed, in mud or snow, etc.
--+?
What is required for effective sport?
--ability to read and adapt to opponents, including when to attack, defend or counterattack
--ability to work within rules to win, maximizing points, minimizing penalites
--effective skill set to score points (good technique on target with power)
--timing and execution under adrenaline/stress load
--ability to execute the above when tired and injured
--+?
1. I'll agree that TKD doesn't cover all of the aspects of SD, but it does add a great deal to the mental and physical conditioning needed to keep your cool WTSHTF.
2. (Pet peeve alert
3. I think TKD is good for personal growth. I don't think that takes away from people who participate primarily for sport or SD. Some of the sport benefits support SD. As practitioners and teachers we just need to be clear about what is sport and what is SD. You really don't want your 8 year olds practicing 'knife hand to throat' on the playground anyway.
4. I won't argue with anyone who wants to focus primarily on SD or sport--I too invest a great deal of practice and study related to both. The SD has real, perhaps lifesaving value. The sport is so good for my mind and body that it likely has life-extending value. Both are good.
Regardless of your focus, full contact sparring with unfamiliar opponents further develops resilience and challenges one to keep a clear head and adapt when hurt or getting beat on. I think that has value whether or not you ever set foot in a tournament.
Carl
This is a great post!!! Everything I wanted to say!!! Thanks
Than more times you will find yourself in jail with this arriruce. Protection is essential but being to aggressive will cause a sever backlast with authorities. Every person knows a thoat shot is not possible all the time.
TW you teach childern I see on your website correct, if so let one of them do that in school and see what happen to the child and you. S.D. has to be made to fit each and every person out there, every technique need to be tought to fit each person style of fighting.
Also the don't stop till they drop scenerio will make you the assalant once you have contaned them and you keep beating on them.
Sometime I forget that people tend to believe the movies that you can just do what ever you think you can ina SD stituation, we need to remember the common thread that binds all of us. That being we are teaching SD not how to kill someone like in the military.
Bravo...restraint is a necessity!
All sunshine and sweetness, as usual.
Note the key words in bold of Gorillas point.I actually disagree with this to a point. There has to be some amount of skill. Strength, size and athleticism with a little skill will trump skill alone, but there has to be SOME amount of skill.
I see wrestlers who are stronger, faster, and more athletic all the time. I have no trouble at all with them until they pick up some fundamentals. Within a year or so, though, they've surpassed me. Stupid athletic kids!
Point is, skill can overcome unskilled physical gifts. But the scale is a sliding one where physical advantage plus a little skill can overtake just skill.
It's early. I hope this makes sense!
Now you points are also valid but I have seen first hand many times a skilled person lose to a superior athlete. Hell, just watch some under card UFC and MMA matches and you will see this. Not always but more than enough times.
OP
Manny
Senior Master
- Thread Starter
- #34
Thank you Terry, you took the words out of my mouth. When we show techs to the children in dojang we don't stress some spots like the troat, a good shot to the troath can lend to irreversible injury or death, Imagine little Jhonny been bullied for years and his sense told him to aim with force to the wind pipe!!! That's why we focus in other targets like the groin, a fast kick to the groin can incapacitate temporaly the bully. That's why we also teach some locks and plam stricks and knees too.
In the other hand I use the troat as atarget when doing sd but with force need to create disconfort and caughin, yes, I know with some more force I can break the wind pipe.
Teaching kids proper self defense techs is not easy. What I have to say about the don't stop till they drop scenario is I will use control and if this is not working then and only then use all the brutal force I have in hand, some times a good kick to the knee is all you need, some tomes a broken noose too, but there are sometimes when you need more tha that.
Manny
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I get what you're saying, and I think we're pretty much on the same page.
First, every person who steps into a UFC Octagon is skilled, even on the undercard. Which dovetails nicely into what I was trying to say. Now, to be clear, I can only really speak to grappling, as that's what I know.
Skill beats size, strength or raw athleticism in almost every single case. I've seen this proven over and over and over again.
Physical gifts plus some skill, however, can overtake skill by itself very quickly. So, a moderately skilled guy who is bigger, stronger, more aggressive or whatever can overwhelm a highly skilled guy who is smaller, weaker or whatever. But where it's strictly skilled vs unskilled, skilled wins almost every time.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
This is the old attributes vs. skills argument. No doubt there's a lot of truth to it, but there's a reason we say the street is different:
On the street there is often unequal initiative and unequal force. Deception and surprise are decisive with people for whom violence is not a sport. If I can talk to get your athlete distracted, and get a weapon into him before he knows better, I can counter that athleticism. And if I don't surprise him, my buddy Biff is behind him with a pipe.
That simple reality is why we study SD, and why it's vital to include situational awareness, verbal skills, understanding of predator methods, and responding to unequal initiative and unequal force in our training.
Carl
Skill is part of the equation. The more strength and athletic ability you have the less skill is required (Sliding Scale). But you must have some skill. As stated in my post.
It is very hard to overcome big, strong and athletic unless you are super skilled.
It is very hard to overcome big, strong and athletic unless you are super skilled.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
errant non-sense. And more importantly, how would you know? you wouldnt. You are a TKD kids dad. You are just repeating something the person you pay said once.
horse hockey
i have SEEN better conditioned athletes get thier asses handed to them by old fat guys who had better skills.
SKILL and training and MENTAL toughness
you are without a grounding in reality friend
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think we're saying pretty much the same thing.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
Terry, I love you brother, but you have clearly spent too much time on that olympic style ****. You have lost your grip on self defense
SELF DEFENSE is about just that.
I dont teach my people to be agressive in anything
BUT
in self defense? There are no rules.
When the rubber meets the road, when it is DO or DIE, my students will not die. Throat, groin, eyes, hell, jam a thumb into an eye socket, bite off a nose, rip off an ear.
I teach them that anything goes when you are in fear for your life.
better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
I WILL NOT be a victim and niether will my students. But then we are martial artists, not sport athletes with our little pull over tops trying to score points....
"restraint is a necessity! "
for those willing to die, sure.
I am not willing to die, i train to defend myself and others and if i have to kill to accomplish that, i will do so with no hesitation and no regrets. And I will give the students under me the knowledge to defend themselves.
I am not a fool, or course I teach them to limit the response to the threat involved, but once they are in fear for thier lives? there are no rules.
Dark, TKD IS deadly and CAN be used on the streets, Korean Kickboxing on the other hand is a worthless waste of time, self defense wise.
Gran? you started it so dont cry when ya get it.
SELF DEFENSE is about just that.
I dont teach my people to be agressive in anything
BUT
in self defense? There are no rules.
When the rubber meets the road, when it is DO or DIE, my students will not die. Throat, groin, eyes, hell, jam a thumb into an eye socket, bite off a nose, rip off an ear.
I teach them that anything goes when you are in fear for your life.
better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6
I WILL NOT be a victim and niether will my students. But then we are martial artists, not sport athletes with our little pull over tops trying to score points....
"restraint is a necessity! "
for those willing to die, sure.
I am not willing to die, i train to defend myself and others and if i have to kill to accomplish that, i will do so with no hesitation and no regrets. And I will give the students under me the knowledge to defend themselves.
I am not a fool, or course I teach them to limit the response to the threat involved, but once they are in fear for thier lives? there are no rules.
Dark, TKD IS deadly and CAN be used on the streets, Korean Kickboxing on the other hand is a worthless waste of time, self defense wise.
Gran? you started it so dont cry when ya get it.
