Aikido.. The reality?

[Cynik75]

 

[paitingman]

I actually caught a few minutes of this livestream the two of them were doing earlier today and it got me thinking about Aikido and this thread.
(I have no Aikido experience and haven't read up on the subject or this thread)
But Dan was sharing a story from his youth about how he started in Taekwondo and learned just a few basics of Hapkido with that instructor around age 15 and pretty much was wristlocking hooligans from then on.

That's pretty much my experience as well.
I have probably pulled off a wrist lock to full control at least 7 or 8 times in my life since learning them from my Taekwondo teacher when I was about 13. Luckily, I have never gone for one irl and fumbled it (I have in class of course).
But I never had this notion that wrist locks don't work or were low percentage. Everythings low percentage when it doesn't suit the situation. That's just the attitude I learned and always had and I sensed it coming from the Wolfman in the brief clip I saw.

 

[drop bear]

I actually caught a few minutes of this livestream the two of them were doing earlier today and it got me thinking about Aikido and this thread.
(I have no Aikido experience and haven't read up on the subject or this thread)
But Dan was sharing a story from his youth about how he started in Taekwondo and learned just a few basics of Hapkido with that instructor around age 15 and pretty much was wristlocking hooligans from then on.

That's pretty much my experience as well.
I have probably pulled off a wrist lock to full control at least 7 or 8 times in my life since learning them from my Taekwondo teacher when I was about 13. Luckily, I have never gone for one irl and fumbled it (I have in class of course).
But I never had this notion that wrist locks don't work or were low percentage. Everythings low percentage when it doesn't suit the situation. That's just the attitude I learned and always had and I sensed it coming from the Wolfman in the brief clip I saw.

Aikido success stories tend to be big guys as well.


I have friends who have no dramas wrist locking people as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Aikido success stories tend to be big guys as well.

The requirements for some wrists locks requires at a minimum that you are the same height that you are applying a wrist lock to. Many of the wrist locks that require leverage will not work if you are not tall enough to create that leverage.

So a wrist lock that I can apply on a person 5'9 isn't going to work on someone who is 6 feet and taller.
That's just the reality of it. There are some wrist locks that will completely fail simply because the person is too short to apply the appropriate leverage.

If most of the people who have applied Aikido successfully are bouncers, then most bouncers are taller and stronger than the average guy walking into the club and that's the way that you want your bouncers to be. Larger and stronger than the average guy is the idea bouncer look.

Size intimidates. This is true even without Aikido.

The reason you can apply so many joint locks in BJJ is because you are on the ground and you can move into positions where the height of someone isn't going to have the same effect on the wrist lock as it would if both were standing up.


Do make the assumption that Aikido only works for Big guys is just not accurate. In many martial arts systems everything is taught from the assumption that someone is the same size as you or slightly taller. That's the default height for instruction. Everything else are exceptions to the rule. If you are smaller than the average guy or gal, then you are going to have a lot of exceptions for a lot of standing fighting techniques..

 

[Hanzou]

If the reason why we don't see a lot of Aikido street fights on youtube is because the Aikido Practitioner is more likely to walk away from a fight than be in one. Then that's a lesson BJJ guy could have learn. Dial the cops, wait for the cops, take video so the cops will know who to arrest. Sometimes that's the best decision to take.

Uh, the Bjj guy got into the fight because he was trying to help break it up. If you're saying that the Aikido guy would just walk away from a situation because they don't want to get involved, okay, but if the Aikidoka wanted to intervene because they were trying to stop someone else from being hurt, then yeah, they wouldn't have fared any better than the Bjj guy. In fact, I'd say they'd have a higher chance of faring worse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Uh, the Bjj guy got into the fight because he was trying to help break it up. If you're saying that the Aikido guy would just walk away from a situation because they don't want to get involved, okay,

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'll even go beyond that and say not getting involved by directly confronting the attackers is the right choice.

The BJJ guy got into the fight because he was trying to help break up a fight.
1. The BJJ guy didn't read the environment correctly.
2. He didn't succeed in breaking up the fight.
3. He didn't succeed in helping the other person getting a beat down
4. He didn't protect himself in the process of trying to help someone else.

Total failure and that BJJ guy almost lost his life.

but if the Aikidoka wanted to intervene because they were trying to stop someone else from being hurt,

I don't think this is in their game plan and based on what I've seen they aren't taught to approach situations like that. I don't take Aikido and I've actually saved people from being beat up by a gang of people and I would have never done what the BJJ guy did. Not even drunk. I have never had so much to drink where I couldn't recognize when there's a situation that would be a total loss even if I got into a physical confrontation.

The fact that we don't hear or see news about Aikido practitioners breaking up fights or stopping criminals, I think we can safely drop the hypothetical about them putting themselves in that situation where they are biting off more than they can chew.

We often don't he Aikido in any type of fights unless they are in law enforcement restraining someone, a bouncer, or someone in a sports competition. So yep. I don't think an Aikido would have gotten involved not unless they could do it from a position that would keep them from being getting beaten up to . To me that's just smart.

If it was me. I would have done the following
1. Call the cops ASAP
2. Approach from the side with the most room for me to manage distance. I don't want people around me unless it's my crew
3 Main goal would be to distract. To get them to focus on me, not so much to fight me but if they spend time arguing and yelling at me, then that means they wouldn't be spending time thinking about beating up the person on the ground.

I might not be able to save the guy from a beating but I might be able to delay it or make it less of a beating until the police get there, But that only works if I can delay or avoid my own beat down. None of my martial arts skills plays into the #1-#3. If I determine that #3 is a no go then I would pull out my camera and try to get pictures of all of those who involved, which would be safer than trying to fight all those guys.

 

[drop bear]

The requirements for some wrists locks requires at a minimum that you are the same height that you are applying a wrist lock to. Many of the wrist locks that require leverage will not work if you are not tall enough to create that leverage.

Not really. Because you attack their head or their shoulder first.

But anyway. Here is more Aikido sparring. And it just seems to be strength moves.

 

[Hanzou]

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'll even go beyond that and say not getting involved by directly confronting the attackers is the right choice.

Then it's a ridiculous argument, because the decision to get involved in a physical altercation comes down to personal choice, not the type of martial art you take. If an Aikidoka for example came home and saw his wife getting beat up by three men, are you saying he would enter a state of zen and walk away from the physical altercation and let the universe handle the outcome, or would he get in the middle of it?

The point is, IF that person decides to engage, which martial art would serve them better, and it isn't Aikido because the Aikidoka is supposedly "more inclined to walk away".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The requirements for some wrists locks requires at a minimum that you are the same height that you are applying a wrist lock to. Many of the wrist locks that require leverage will not work if you are not tall enough to create that leverage.

So a wrist lock that I can apply on a person 5'9 isn't going to work on someone who is 6 feet and taller.
That's just the reality of it. There are some wrist locks that will completely fail simply because the person is too short to apply the appropriate leverage.

If most of the people who have applied Aikido successfully are bouncers, then most bouncers are taller and stronger than the average guy walking into the club and that's the way that you want your bouncers to be. Larger and stronger than the average guy is the idea bouncer look.

Size intimidates. This is true even without Aikido.

The reason you can apply so many joint locks in BJJ is because you are on the ground and you can move into positions where the height of someone isn't going to have the same effect on the wrist lock as it would if both were standing up.


Do make the assumption that Aikido only works for Big guys is just not accurate. In many martial arts systems everything is taught from the assumption that someone is the same size as you or slightly taller. That's the default height for instruction. Everything else are exceptions to the rule. If you are smaller than the average guy or gal, then you are going to have a lot of exceptions for a lot of standing fighting techniques..

All the wrist locks I know will work on someone taller. In all cases (unless you're significantly larger than them) you need to break structure on them, anyway. It just takes a bigger structure break on a taller person (also on a stronger person).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'll even go beyond that and say not getting involved by directly confronting the attackers is the right choice.

The BJJ guy got into the fight because he was trying to help break up a fight.
1. The BJJ guy didn't read the environment correctly.
2. He didn't succeed in breaking up the fight.
3. He didn't succeed in helping the other person getting a beat down
4. He didn't protect himself in the process of trying to help someone else.

Total failure and that BJJ guy almost lost his life.


I don't think this is in their game plan and based on what I've seen they aren't taught to approach situations like that. I don't take Aikido and I've actually saved people from being beat up by a gang of people and I would have never done what the BJJ guy did. Not even drunk. I have never had so much to drink where I couldn't recognize when there's a situation that would be a total loss even if I got into a physical confrontation.

The fact that we don't hear or see news about Aikido practitioners breaking up fights or stopping criminals, I think we can safely drop the hypothetical about them putting themselves in that situation where they are biting off more than they can chew.

We often don't he Aikido in any type of fights unless they are in law enforcement restraining someone, a bouncer, or someone in a sports competition. So yep. I don't think an Aikido would have gotten involved not unless they could do it from a position that would keep them from being getting beaten up to . To me that's just smart.

If it was me. I would have done the following
1. Call the cops ASAP
2. Approach from the side with the most room for me to manage distance. I don't want people around me unless it's my crew
3 Main goal would be to distract. To get them to focus on me, not so much to fight me but if they spend time arguing and yelling at me, then that means they wouldn't be spending time thinking about beating up the person on the ground.

I might not be able to save the guy from a beating but I might be able to delay it or make it less of a beating until the police get there, But that only works if I can delay or avoid my own beat down. None of my martial arts skills plays into the #1-#3. If I determine that #3 is a no go then I would pull out my camera and try to get pictures of all of those who involved, which would be safer than trying to fight all those guys.

I think there are plenty of folks in any art who'd have jumped in to try to help. I don't think that's style-dependent.

 

[jayoliver00]

In all honesty, no one is going to be able to fight a gang of people like that regardless of the system you train. A person who trains Aikido would do better that the coach. The onlookers who the attackers ignored did a better job than the coach.

In situations like that, it's not always about your fighting skills and this is something that many self-defense classes talk about. Best skill to have in situations like this is to read the environment. Don't just rush in.

The report said that 2 people were being attacked by that mob and he tried to help them. Not certain if he used light force, ie. blocking, calming them down or the full force of his MMA skills.

But how do you know he just rushed in? And how long should a "real" Martial Artist watch & wait, while a mob is beating 2 people who are already unconscious and on their way to coma-city and possibly death.

Sounds like you're saying that Aikidokas and Self Defense people would just watch & wait for the Cops. And if they die (those 2 victims), they die.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think there are plenty of folks in any art who'd have jumped in to try to help. I don't think that's style-dependent.

If they read that crowd they wouldn't have. One guy had on brass knuckles. I think most people would have pick the option not to wade into that fight,

Jumping into a fight where you are clearly out number is not the intelligent thing to do. No matter how heroic you may want to be. Which is why the BJJ ended up the way he did. The fact that he ended up in the hospital pretty much verifies that.

 

[Cynik75]

Jumping into a fight where you are clearly out number is not the intelligent thing to do.

This is Sparta!!!

 

[JowGaWolf]

But how do you know he just rushed in? And how long should a "real" Martial Artist watch & wait, while a mob is beating 2 people who are already unconscious and on their way to coma-city and possibly death.

1. How do you know just rushed in? News reported that one of his family members said that he wasn't part of the original fight but jumped in to help the other who were being attacked. I looked up this incident beyond the video that was posted.

2. How long should a "Real" Martial Artist while a mob is beating 2 people who are already unconscious and on their way to coma-city and possibly death. This depends on if you can win against all of them either force or by getting them to stop attacking. If you can't do this, then it doesn't matter if you are a"Real" Martial artist or not. The end result will be the same. The 2 that your tried to save will take a trip to "Coma city" and you will get a free trip to "Coma City" as well .

If you have 2 people KO'd by a gang of people, then you jumping in to help means you'll be fighting by yourself. So what we saw was a "Real" Martial Artist jumping in to save someone, He failed at that and as result he got the same beating as well, a free trip to the hospital. Not only did he fail, Him getting beaten up added to the list of casualties.

Sounds like you're saying that Aikidokas and Self Defense people would just watch & wait for the Cops. And if they die (those 2 victims), they die.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. If you can't read a situation correctly then you jumping in won't make things better, it will make things worse. It won't help the people you are trying to save and it won't help you. Even if you are going to try to talk them down. Make sure you got your escape covered, make sure you try to identify if they have weapons or not. Try to come up with a quick plan. Is there something you can do to delay the fight or distract them. Whatever you do you have to be smart about. Don't assume they won't kill you for interfering.

Sometimes there's nothing you can do against a gang of people like that regardless of your martial arts background. Your martial arts and your heroic heart can't save everyone and that's just the reality of it. And if you still want to jump in. Know that you will lose and that you may lose your life. If you can accept that as being the only choice then go for it.

If your martial arts skill level is the first thing that comes to your mind when you see a gang of people beating someone like that, then you clearly aren't reading the situation before you.

 

[Steve]

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'll even go beyond that and say not getting involved by directly confronting the attackers is the right choice.

The BJJ guy got into the fight because he was trying to help break up a fight.
1. The BJJ guy didn't read the environment correctly.
2. He didn't succeed in breaking up the fight.
3. He didn't succeed in helping the other person getting a beat down
4. He didn't protect himself in the process of trying to help someone else.

Total failure and that BJJ guy almost lost his life.


I don't think this is in their game plan and based on what I've seen they aren't taught to approach situations like that. I don't take Aikido and I've actually saved people from being beat up by a gang of people and I would have never done what the BJJ guy did. Not even drunk. I have never had so much to drink where I couldn't recognize when there's a situation that would be a total loss even if I got into a physical confrontation.

The fact that we don't hear or see news about Aikido practitioners breaking up fights or stopping criminals, I think we can safely drop the hypothetical about them putting themselves in that situation where they are biting off more than they can chew.

We often don't he Aikido in any type of fights unless they are in law enforcement restraining someone, a bouncer, or someone in a sports competition. So yep. I don't think an Aikido would have gotten involved not unless they could do it from a position that would keep them from being getting beaten up to . To me that's just smart.

If it was me. I would have done the following
1. Call the cops ASAP
2. Approach from the side with the most room for me to manage distance. I don't want people around me unless it's my crew
3 Main goal would be to distract. To get them to focus on me, not so much to fight me but if they spend time arguing and yelling at me, then that means they wouldn't be spending time thinking about beating up the person on the ground.

I might not be able to save the guy from a beating but I might be able to delay it or make it less of a beating until the police get there, But that only works if I can delay or avoid my own beat down. None of my martial arts skills plays into the #1-#3. If I determine that #3 is a no go then I would pull out my camera and try to get pictures of all of those who involved, which would be safer than trying to fight all those guys.

I drink a lot of coffee and enjoy eating baked goods. By your logic, this prepares me for self defense as much as Aikido does (or Jow Ga, by your account). I should just package up my SD model and sell it. Our key principle is "Avoid Physical Contact and Call the Cops" followed closely by "Distract the bad guys... offer them a donut." It's the 1, 2, 3 of self defense.

Thank you for this. I'll let you all know how much money I make.

 

[jayoliver00]

1. How do you know just rushed in? News reported that one of his family members said that he wasn't part of the original fight but jumped in to help the other who were being attacked. I looked up this incident beyond the video that was posted.

Yes, that's what I just said (b/c I read the same/similar report and not just go by the long winded video commentary that was posted here by some guy with a thick accent; so how did you know he just rushed in?

2. How long should a "Real" Martial Artist while a mob is beating 2 people who are already unconscious and on their way to coma-city and possibly death. This depends on if you can win against all of them either force or by getting them to stop attacking. If you can't do this, then it doesn't matter if you are a"Real" Martial artist or not. The end result will be the same. The 2 that your tried to save will take a trip to "Coma city" and you will get a free trip to "Coma City" as well .

It looked like 5-6 guys jumping him. Can you beat 5-6 guys at once with your Aikido?

If you have 2 people KO'd by a gang of people, then you jumping in to help means you'll be fighting by yourself. So what we saw was a "Real" Martial Artist jumping in to save someone, He failed at that and as result he got the same beating as well, a free trip to the hospital. Not only did he fail, Him getting beaten up added to the list of casualties.

How do you know that he jumped in to fight though?

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. If you can't read a situation correctly then you jumping in won't make things better, it will make things worse. It won't help the people you are trying to save and it won't help you. Even if you are going to try to talk them down. Make sure you got your escape covered, make sure you try to identify if they have weapons or not. Try to come up with a quick plan. Is there something you can do to delay the fight or distract them. Whatever you do you have to be smart about. Don't assume they won't kill you for interfering.

After that exhaustive laundry list of things to do as a "Real Martial Artist", shouldn't he double check them all again, just to make sure? And I'm pretty the people that were in trouble are already dead by now.

Sometimes there's nothing you can do against a gang of people like that regardless of your martial arts background. Your martial arts and your heroic heart can't save everyone and that's just the reality of it. And if you still want to jump in. Know that you will lose and that you may lose your life. If you can accept that as being the only choice then go for it.

Some people risks their life for others; some are cowards.

 

[jayoliver00]

Not really. Because you attack their head or their shoulder first.

But anyway. Here is more Aikido sparring. And it just seems to be strength moves.

What a video, goodness. I'm going to make a cool video like this vs. an 8 year old in my class to showcase my Muay Thai with some Metallica in the background. I bet I'll look good.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I drink a lot of coffee and enjoy eating baked goods. By your logic, this prepares me for self defense as much as Aikido does (or Jow Ga, by your account).

1. I didn't say anything about eating baked goods. No on has.
2. In situations like this you have to think beyond your Martial arts, because your Martial Arts isn't going to save you or the people you are trying to help which clearly played out om reality with the BJJ coach..

If what you study teaches you the value of keeping distance and not engaging then your whole mentality is going to be around that function of not engaging.

My self-defense (street smarts) a person will rarely be able to jump into a gang of people and fight their way out without being seriously injured or killed. What I've personally have seen in the streets during my life informs me of this and not my Martial Arts. I teach self defense classes and I would never tell a student to jump into a crowd like that. I don't know any self-defense instructor that would tell their students to jump into a fight like that. Even law enforcement will tell you, not to jump into a fight light that.

Our key principle is "Avoid Physical Contact and Call the Cops" followed closely by "Distract the bad guys... offer them a donut." It's the 1, 2, 3 of self defense.

You are taking my words out of context. What I said deals with the situation in that video where there are numerous people assaulting two other people. Do what you want with your Self Defense class. Tell your students that it's a good idea jump into a fight where they are clearly outnumbered. That's your class, I don't have any say over that. If that's how you want to make money then that's up to you.

 

[Flying Crane]

Some people risks their life for others; some are cowards.

Oohhhhhhh Kay. This is one hell of an over-simplification and I think I you know it.

 

[jayoliver00]

Oohhhhhhh Kay. This is one hell of an over-simplification and I think I you know it.

Kind of, but look at this guy who's probably not even trained; jumping in vs. some guy with a gigantic knife who's already stabbing someone repeatedly. Notice he didn't get out his "Self Defense Do's & Don't's" checklist & protractor to first thoroughly access the situation while grandma's getting aerated