Aikido.. The reality?

[Flying Crane]

Kind of, but look at this guy who's probably not even trained; jumping in vs. some guy with a gigantic knife who's already stabbing someone repeatedly. Notice he didn't get out his "Self Defense Do's & Don't's" checklist & protractor to first thoroughly access the situation while grandma's getting aerated

That is all beside the point. You can’t honestly simplify it down to: either you help someone or you are a coward. That is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Shatteredzen]

That video is a complete waste of time.

If we took 2 average individuals who were identical twins and had one of them train 5 years in Bjj or Judo and the other train 5 years in Aikido, the twin who practiced Bjj or Judo would simply have more martial prowess than the Aikido twin. We could do this for 10 years, 30 years, or a lifetime, and we’d get the same results.

If you’re some huge burly guy, I’m sure you can make Aikido work on smaller or untrained people. However, if you’re a larger person, pretty much anything you do would work on a smaller untrained person. The goal is to see a much smaller person pull off their techniques effectively against larger people. I have witnessed that in Bjj and Judo. I haven’t witnessed that in Aikido.

Perhaps Aikido is better served as a capstone MA for experienced martial artists? Like if you have a black belt in Bjj or Judo, you should then do Aikido for some spiritual training.

You have both totally missed the point and indirectly hit the nail on the head. Aikido IS a capstone martial art, just as I have been saying this whole thread, just as Remy or Dan the Wolfman say in their interviews with Rokas. Even studying one Aikido technique per week, you would likely get through most schools ENTIRE syllabus in one year. Aikido primarily trains movement and specific principles for controlling a confrontation. The original Aikido students all had their blackbelts in Judo when they stepped into their first Aikido class. If you trained Aikido for 15 years as Rokas did, with no other foundation and especially in its weakened, watered down state and with no physical conditioning you would likely end up where he did. No one is putting Aikido on a pedestal and touting it as the most effective martial art and it does not have to be. Aikido fills a niche, it focuses on the beginning, pre fight phase of a confrontation and it gives tools for an already experienced and well rounded fighter to control the confrontation, hopefully in a way where both parties suffer little to no injuries.

The skills learned in Aikido are primarily its principles, its movement and its ways of handling conflict, these principles and methods can be used alongside other martial arts and they should be. All that said, most people are going to end up in situations that can be well served by some of these techniques. If trained correctly, Aikido does what it is supposed to quite well and hence why I have said that I have gotten more mileage out of my Aikido than anything else. Contrary to this discussion, real fights don't usually take place between skilled individuals, they don't last long and most people aren't that committed to finishing them once they start, they tend to look for a way out. Believe it or not, getting tossed onto their butt a few times generally discourages people into moving on with their night. The mental math for how much more pride they want to lose and how not fun hitting the ground is ends most violent confrontations because people can tell when they are outmatched. Simply manhandling someone with a hip throw is going to full stop 90% of bar fights, the guy who gets put on the ground is going to hit the deck, think "oh crap, no thanks" and stand up apologizing or put his hands up in submission. These street ninja fights you kids keep talking about don't happen.

From an ordinary persons perspective it is very useful to be able to defend yourself from a majority of situations without having to engage the fight to the point where you have to beat the brakes off of someone or risk seriously injuring them. If you are someone like a police officer or security guard or bouncer, it is much better to have options that don't require you to exhert overwhelming force, being able to use the appropriate force for the situation is often both prudent and beneficial for everyone. To make Aikido operative you are going to have to find a good teacher/school and put the time in to learn how to apply the techniques, like anything. Just because you aren't going to win the UFC with your Aikido doesn't mean the system has no value.

 

[Steve]

1. I didn't say anything about eating baked goods. No on has.

I literally just mentioned it.

2. In situations like this you have to think beyond your Martial arts, because your Martial Arts isn't going to save you or the people you are trying to help which clearly played out om reality with the BJJ coach..

If what you study teaches you the value of keeping distance and not engaging then your whole mentality is going to be around that function of not engaging.

Which has nothing to do with martial arts. That's my point. Who are you to tell me that drinking coffee and eating baked goods has nothing to do with self defense? I do both of these things and have literally never been successfully mugged.

My self-defense (street smarts) a person will rarely be able to jump into a gang of people and fight their way out without being seriously injured or killed. What I've personally have seen in the streets during my life informs me of this and not my Martial Arts. I teach self defense classes and I would never tell a student to jump into a crowd like that. I don't know any self-defense instructor that would tell their students to jump into a fight like that. Even law enforcement will tell you, not to jump into a fight light that.

John Mulaney does a whole bit on this, which is hilarious. Check it out. It's in the Kid Gorgeous special on Netflix.

And... I teach self defense classes, too. Except in my classes, we don't talk about fights. We drink espresso and eat pastries. My self defense class is at least as effective as yours, because no one I've ever had pastries or espresso with has ever been mugged.

You are taking my words out of context. What I said deals with the situation in that video where there are numerous people assaulting two other people. Do what you want with your Self Defense class. Tell your students that it's a good idea jump into a fight where they are clearly outnumbered. That's your class, I don't have any say over that. If that's how you want to make money then that's up to you.

I'm just pointing out how flawed and self serving your rationale is, by showing how it could be used to literally support anything.

 

[drop bear]

1. I didn't say anything about eating baked goods. No on has.
2. In situations like this you have to think beyond your Martial arts, because your Martial Arts isn't going to save you or the people you are trying to help which clearly played out om reality with the BJJ coach..

If what you study teaches you the value of keeping distance and not engaging then your whole mentality is going to be around that function of not engaging.

My self-defense (street smarts) a person will rarely be able to jump into a gang of people and fight their way out without being seriously injured or killed. What I've personally have seen in the streets during my life informs me of this and not my Martial Arts. I teach self defense classes and I would never tell a student to jump into a crowd like that. I don't know any self-defense instructor that would tell their students to jump into a fight like that. Even law enforcement will tell you, not to jump into a fight light that.


You are taking my words out of context. What I said deals with the situation in that video where there are numerous people assaulting two other people. Do what you want with your Self Defense class. Tell your students that it's a good idea jump into a fight where they are clearly outnumbered. That's your class, I don't have any say over that. If that's how you want to make money then that's up to you.

Some people consider the risk worth it.

I wouldn't suggest training that creates the sort of person who faces danger to help is necessarily a bad character trait.

 

[Steve]

That is all beside the point. You can’t honestly simplify it down to: either you help someone or you are a coward. That is intellectually dishonest.

Totally. It is also an intellectually dishonest oversimplification to suggest that one simply avoids the conflict, as others have done.

There seems to be a rash of self serving oversimplification going on in this thread over the last few pages.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Aikido success stories tend to be big guys as well.


I have friends who have no dramas wrist locking people as well.

I'm not sure where you are going with this, big guys tend to have more success stories in fighting, that's why there are weight divisions. No style makes up for physique and size when there is a parity or proximity in skill.

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure where you are going with this, big guys tend to have more success stories in fighting, that's why there are weight divisions. No style makes up for physique and size when there is a parity or proximity in skill.

but this presumes that experience training in various styles is equivalent... which is kind of the entire point of the thread. Right?

A guy with 10 years of aikido and a similar guy with 10 years of BJJ do not have equivalent functional skill. The question is, would a 10 year BJJ guy who weighs 150 lbs have sufficient expertise to defend himself from a 200 lbs aikidoka with 10 years of training? All things considered, the smart money is on the jiu-jitiero.

There are also open weight divisions in BJJ tournaments where you can see how, even at an elite level, some smaller guys can defeat larger guys. Usually, if you medal in your own division, you can sign up for the "absolute" division. I've seen relatively small guys beat some giants.

 

[JowGaWolf]

so how did you know he just rushed in?

There were multiple reports done on the incident, and that's what his cousin is quoted saying, that he jumped in to help. That's just the type of person he is.

Another source stated that someone appeared to be intoxicated, bumped into someone then got beaten. But I don't know who they are referring to when they say "He"

It looked like 5-6 guys jumping him. Can you beat 5-6 guys at once with your Aikido?

F me more than 3 people = gang and things begin to change drastically for me when there are more than 3 people. So my default answer is going to be no. Not just for Aikido but also for Jow Ga or any other open hand combat idea that I can think about doing. I have 2 eyes 2 hands and 2 feet. 5-6 people would have to total garbage without weapons to make me think I can take on 5 - 6 with no problem. The more people the more variables and the higher the risk that I will lose.

After that exhaustive laundry list of things to do as a "Real Martial Artist", shouldn't he double check them all again, just to make sure?

It doesn't take a long to scan the environment or people. Our eyes and brains process a lot of data just by driving down the street.

I wouldn't suggest training that creates the sort of person who faces danger to help is necessarily a bad character trait.

I never mentioned character traits. You can have good Character traits without fighting. Being willing to face danger doesn't mean that a person has good character traits. There's a lot of people who are willing to face danger who don't have what many would consider good Character traits.

 

[Shatteredzen]

but this presumes that experience training in various styles is equivalent... which is kind of the entire point of the thread. Right?

A guy with 10 years of aikido and a similar guy with 10 years of BJJ do not have equivalent functional skill. The question is, would a 10 year BJJ guy who weighs 150 lbs have sufficient expertise to defend himself from a 200 lbs aikidoka with 10 years of training? All things considered, the smart money is on the jiu-jitiero.

There are also open weight divisions in BJJ tournaments where you can see how, even at an elite level, some smaller guys can defeat larger guys. Usually, if you medal in your own division, you can sign up for the "absolute" division. I've seen relatively small guys beat some giants.

I don't think that time spent is equivalent at all, you would have to spend more time in Aikido than most other martial arts to make it operative if you don't have a good base. Also, overall "time spent" is misleading as well. Someone who spends two hours a week training has a very different "10 years" of experience than someone who trains everyday. I would say that most people are better served putting a few years into a combative martial art like Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc before they take time to devote to Aikido. Or do what I did and learn it alongside more functional styles.

Martial Arts are not a 1 for 1 thing, if anything, if you want my opinion, a good syllabus to train someone is "do BJJ first" then pick a striking art and master it, then go from there.

 

[Steve]

I don't think that time spent is equivalent at all, you would have to spend more time in Aikido than most other martial arts to make it operative if you don't have a good base. Also, overall "time spent" is misleading as well. Someone who spends two hours a week training has a very different "10 years" of experience than someone who trains everyday. I would say that most people are better served putting a few years into a combative martial art like Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc before they take time to devote to Aikido. Or do what I did and learn it alongside more functional styles.

Martial Arts are not a 1 for 1 thing, if anything, if you want my opinion, a good syllabus to train someone is "do BJJ first" then pick a striking art and master it, then go from there.

You brought up parity and proximity in skill. 82 pages into this thread, and it seems like we're at a point where the Aikidoka's skill is to call the cops and avoid fighting at all. The obvious question then, is what exactly does that mean in the context of Aikido? Is there a point where an aikidoka has demonstrable skill beyond that of an untrained person? And if so, what is it?

I'm content to go back to lurking and reading, but this thread has taken a sudden turn into la la land.

 

[Steve]

I never mentioned character traits. You can have good Character traits without fighting. Being willing to face danger doesn't mean that a person has good character traits. There's a lot of people who are willing to face danger who don't have what many would consider good Character traits.

The point you seem to be missing is that helping someone who needs help IS generally considered a good character trait. You didn't bring up the literal topic of character traits, but when you suggest that it's a simple calculus of personal safety vs the safety of others, you did bring up the issue of character.

When you see a kid drowning in the lake, you can 100% avoid drowning by letting the kid drown. But most people would recognize that the person who jumps in to save that kid is a hero. Even if he ends up drowning himself. Who would call letting the kid drown self defense? Not me. But that's precisely your definition. And just to note, this happens. People, even really good swimmers, have drowned trying to save others from drowning. The question then is, do we use this fact as a reason to stop teaching people to swim, and instead start teaching them to just avoid the water? We will surely be far less likely to drown if we do that.

 

[Shatteredzen]

You brought up parity and proximity in skill. 82 pages into this thread, and it seems like we're at a point where the Aikidoka's skill is to call the cops and avoid fighting at all. The obvious question then, is what exactly does that mean in the context of Aikido? Is there a point where an aikidoka has demonstrable skill beyond that of an untrained person? And if so, what is it?

I'm content to go back to lurking and reading, but this thread has taken a sudden turn into la la land.

This thread has been in la la land for most of its 82 pages. What I have been saying about Aikido has remained consistent for the entirety of my participation in this thread and I have explained what its good at many times over now. The thread keeps getting de-railed because we have a specific few people who are desperately working very hard at diverting it. I've already answered every question you pose in the above quote, as have others.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The point you seem to be missing is that helping someone who needs help IS generally considered a good character trait.

I'm not missing that point. He went in to help. Got beaten up Failed to Help. as a result His efforts didn't help. However the person recording fight on the phone didn't rush into the fight Recorded the video, which the police is now using to make arrests. So some of the bad guys don't get away.

You seem to miss the point there are more ways to help than to throw fists especially if the odds are stack so heavily against you.

but when you suggest that it's a simple calculus of personal safety vs the safety of others, you did bring up the issue of character.

That's not a character trait issue. That's a survival one and recognizing where your limitations lie. So the person video recording the fight has less of a Good Character trait because he or she didn't jump in to fight?

 

[JowGaWolf]

When you see a kid drowning in the lake, you can 100% avoid drowning by letting the kid drown.

If I see a kid in the lake drowning and I can't swim. Guess who is going to drown that day. Not me. If I can't toss something to that kid that is drowning then I'm not jumping in. 2 people drowning doesn't make things better. It makes things worse. There is no intelligence in jumping to save a drowning person, child or not. If you cannot swim.

 

[Steve]

If I see a kid in the lake drowning and I can't swim. Guess who is going to drown that day. Not me. If I can't toss something to that kid that is drowning then I'm not jumping in. 2 people drowning doesn't make things better. It makes things worse. There is no intelligence in jumping to save a drowning person, child or not. If you cannot swim.

This isn't analogous. people who are strong swimmers sometimes drown while trying to save someone else who is drowning. There is real risk, which is why they are often considered heroes. that's analogous to someone who is a skilled fighter being seriously injured while trying to save someone else Unless, we are now accepting that aikidoka can't fight. I mean, if that's a settled issue, what are we talking about?

Also, you'd just watch the kid drown?? Jesus, man.

 

[Hanzou]

You have both totally missed the point and indirectly hit the nail on the head. Aikido IS a capstone martial art, just as I have been saying this whole thread, just as Remy or Dan the Wolfman say in their interviews with Rokas. Even studying one Aikido technique per week, you would likely get through most schools ENTIRE syllabus in one year. Aikido primarily trains movement and specific principles for controlling a confrontation. The original Aikido students all had their blackbelts in Judo when they stepped into their first Aikido class. If you trained Aikido for 15 years as Rokas did, with no other foundation and especially in its weakened, watered down state and with no physical conditioning you would likely end up where he did. No one is putting Aikido on a pedestal and touting it as the most effective martial art and it does not have to be. Aikido fills a niche, it focuses on the beginning, pre fight phase of a confrontation and it gives tools for an already experienced and well rounded fighter to control the confrontation, hopefully in a way where both parties suffer little to no injuries.

The skills learned in Aikido are primarily its principles, its movement and its ways of handling conflict, these principles and methods can be used alongside other martial arts and they should be. All that said, most people are going to end up in situations that can be well served by some of these techniques. If trained correctly, Aikido does what it is supposed to quite well and hence why I have said that I have gotten more mileage out of my Aikido than anything else. Contrary to this discussion, real fights don't usually take place between skilled individuals, they don't last long and most people aren't that committed to finishing them once they start, they tend to look for a way out. Believe it or not, getting tossed onto their butt a few times generally discourages people into moving on with their night. The mental math for how much more pride they want to lose and how not fun hitting the ground is ends most violent confrontations because people can tell when they are outmatched. Simply manhandling someone with a hip throw is going to full stop 90% of bar fights, the guy who gets put on the ground is going to hit the deck, think "oh crap, no thanks" and stand up apologizing or put his hands up in submission. These street ninja fights you kids keep talking about don't happen.

From an ordinary persons perspective it is very useful to be able to defend yourself from a majority of situations without having to engage the fight to the point where you have to beat the brakes off of someone or risk seriously injuring them. If you are someone like a police officer or security guard or bouncer, it is much better to have options that don't require you to exhert overwhelming force, being able to use the appropriate force for the situation is often both prudent and beneficial for everyone. To make Aikido operative you are going to have to find a good teacher/school and put the time in to learn how to apply the techniques, like anything. Just because you aren't going to win the UFC with your Aikido doesn't mean the system has no value.

The problem with this post is that Aikido is not advertised to the masses with these facts in place. I have yet to see any Aikido school state that you need to be a huge burly man to pull off the techniques, or that you need to have already mastered another MA in order to utilize Aikido effectively. What I DO see are Aikido schools saying that you can easily neutralize a threat, that you can be a smaller and weaker individual and stop a stronger assailant, and that you can be effective against multiple opponents. You can supposedly do all of this by practicing only Aikido.

We should also point out that if it requires a big man who is highly skilled in various forms of other martial arts to pull off Aikido techniques, that doesn't bode very well for Aikido as a martial art. A large, muscular or heavy-set man with a high degree of martial arts and fighting experience can make pretty much anything work. I've seen big guys knock someone out by slapping a smaller person across the face. That really isn't a good measure for the efficacy of a particular style. With all due respect to Dan the Wolfman, seeing him wrist lock skinny people half his size isn't a convincing display of Aikido's effectiveness.

Also as someone else has pointed out, we have many examples of smaller people and women in Bjj overcoming larger opponents. I would personally love to see a female Aikidoka use her skills to subdue a male opponent of any size. I have a strong feeling that that is something that simply isn't going to happen. So what does that mean for all of those women who believe the advertising of Aikido and take up its practice believing that can easily subdue a bigger stronger assailant?

 

[Shatteredzen]

The problem with this post is that Aikido is not advertised to the masses with these facts in place. I have yet to see any Aikido school state that you need to be a huge burly man to pull off the techniques, or that you need to have already mastered another MA in order to utilize Aikido effectively. What I DO see are Aikido schools saying that you can easily neutralize a threat, that you can be a smaller and weaker individual and stop a stronger assailant, and that you can be effective against multiple opponents. You can supposedly do all of this by practicing only Aikido.

We should also point out that if it requires a big man who is highly skilled in various forms of other martial arts to pull off Aikido techniques, that doesn't bode very well for Aikido as a martial art. A large, muscular or heavy-set man with a high degree of martial arts and fighting experience can make pretty much anything work. I've seen big guys knock someone out by slapping a smaller person across the face. That really isn't a good measure for the efficacy of a particular style. With all due respect to Dan the Wolfman, seeing him wrist lock skinny people half his size isn't a convincing display of Aikido's effectiveness.

Also as someone else has pointed out, we have many examples of smaller people and women in Bjj overcoming larger opponents. I would personally love to see a female Aikidoka use her skills to subdue a male opponent of any size. I have a strong feeling that that is something that simply isn't going to happen. So what does that mean for all of those women who believe the advertising of Aikido and take up its practice believing that can easily subdue a bigger stronger assailant?

I never said you had to be bigger or able to out muscle an opponent. Show me one martial art where size doesn't matter and a woman can use it to easily defend herself against a larger male? Self Defense and Martial Arts in general are oversold and underdelivered, this isn't unique to Aikido. If you want my opinion, no school should be making these kinds of promises, because they cannot control the individuals ability to deliver. Can a woman learn Aikido to defend herself? Sure. Her ability to apply it to other women and other individuals is going to depend on the quality of her training and her personal ability, like anyone else.

If anything, a woman would likely benefit more from Aikido under a realistic instructor rather than gaining false self confidence thinking she is going to do some muay thai or BJJ for a few months and then stand toe to toe with a guy one hundred pounds heavier than her. The same can be said for men, I have met plenty of guys who take an MMA class for a few months who develop completely unrealistic expectations of their own competence and ability.

The Aikido community should be marketing itself and training differently, we can agree here. The need for change is not the same as saying it doesn't work. I'm comfortable saying that Aikido probably has the most amount of work to do in the martial arts community, but that doesn't mean that it has nothing to offer. I think everyone interested in MA can benefit from Aikido, I just don't think it should be the first or only art you train. I like to teach it the way I learned it, in conjunction with other styles and techniques, as part of a broad education.

 

[Hanzou]

I never said you had to be bigger or able to out muscle an opponent. Show me one martial art where size doesn't matter and a woman can use it to easily defend herself against a larger male?

No, you pointed out large men being able to use Aikido effectively. The point is that Aikido is advertised for smaller, weaker people being able to beat larger, stronger assailants.

Also while I wouldn't say "easily", female Bjj practitioners have shown the ability to overcome larger male opponents in various situations (competitions, exhibitions, goofing around). Again, this isn't something I've ever seen in Aikido practice.

Self Defense and Martial Arts in general are oversold and underdelivered, this isn't unique to Aikido. If you want my opinion, no school should be making these kinds of promises, because they cannot control the individuals ability to deliver. Can a woman learn Aikido to defend herself? Sure. Her ability to apply it to other women and other individuals is going to depend on the quality of her training and her personal ability, like anyone else.

Again, I have yet to see any female Aikidoka utilize her ability effectively against a stronger, fully resisting opponent. This has never been demonstrated even in a controlled environment. So you saying that they can do it seems more like a belief with no evidence to back it up.

If anything, a woman would likely benefit more from Aikido under a realistic instructor rather than gaining false self confidence thinking she is going to do some muay thai or BJJ for a few months and then stand toe to toe with a guy one hundred pounds heavier than her. The same can be said for men, I have met plenty of guys who take an MMA class for a few months who develop completely unrealistic expectations of their own competence and ability.

Why would she have false confidence? The female Bjj practitioner would have had more functional experience dealing with larger, resisting male opponents than the Aikidoka, so they would understand the limitations of their skill, and what happens when someone multiple sizes larger than them are sitting on top of them and not moving until they make them move. That is something the female Aikidoka simply doesn't experience, and that experience is invaluable in a self defense situation.

Frankly I don't see how doing choreographed randori with a compliant uke is beneficial for a female practitioner on any level outside of learning how to breakfall.

The Aikido community should be marketing itself and training differently, we can agree here. The need for change is not the same as saying it doesn't work. I'm comfortable saying that Aikido probably has the most amount of work to do in the martial arts community, but that doesn't mean that it has nothing to offer. I think everyone interested in MA can benefit from Aikido, I just don't think it should be the first or only art you train. I like to teach it the way I learned it, in conjunction with other styles and techniques, as part of a broad education.

Please highlight the post where anyone said that Aikido has nothing to offer. Aikido has plenty to offer. The problem is that it's saying that it's one thing when it is clearly something else entirely.

 

[Hanzou]

Also there's a history in Bjj of "giant slayers". It's something that all smaller guys in Bjj aspire to achieve;

Big Game Hunting In Jiu-Jitsu: 6 Famous BJJ Giant Slayers

The claim that a smaller person can beat a bigger person is one of the claims that every martial art in the world clings to. In certain cases, it may even prove to be true. While the concept that someone could beat a bigger person is always there in theory, practice usually begs to differ....

bjj-world.com

 

[JowGaWolf]

Unless, we are now accepting that aikidoka can't fight

I'm saying if you can't beat a gang of people up then don't try to do it.

Also, you'd just watch the kid drown?? Jesus, man.

If you can't swim and there's no way to help the child then what else are you going to do? Jump in the water and drown with the kid? What does that accomplish. You'll do that just so someone can call you "heroic" News flash when you die none of that matters.

Also doing something just for the sake of being seen as "heroic" is also stupid.