Aikido.. The reality?

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Oily Dragon

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. I don't need to personally train in every Chinese martial art to know those systems fail when used in a competitive sense.
What do you mean by "those systems".

Chinese? Chinese systems have stood the test of thousands of years. If I named a hundred of them, which could you point to as "failed" in competition? One? Two? So name them.

Are there any other countries you mean? Or are you just after China.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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The world is bigger than any individual. I don't need to personally train in every Chinese martial art to know those systems fail when used in a competitive sense. The nature of competition is such that no advantage that is available will be overlooked, and as such if it was there it would be used with success by at least a portion of the vast competitive martial arts community. But instead, you can see what is done, what is used, and what does work. Tested rigorously day in and out by a vast demographic of people that collectively have experienced every martial art under the sun.
I see now that you are not understanding my rudimentary use of language. You berated jow ga for his view point. You insulted all Chinese martial arts in a generalized and indefensible comment that shows how full of your own opinion you are. You refuse to acknowledge using the same type of argument that you referred to as unscientific and based on belief when it was used by others. You are attempting to bludgeon your way past having an erudite discussion in favor of displaying your intellect. I’m sorry sir, but you lost me when you lacked the ability to accept that you might be engaging in the very thing that apparently inflamed you in the first place. I take umbrage with your tone, your manner, and the lack of substance or fact in some of your statements. I could show you some proof of CMA working well in competition, but i doubt it would make a difference to your uninformed yet strong opinions. It’s clear you missed a very important part of CMA, it’s known as emptying your cup. Look it up, you may find it useful.
 

Dirty Dog

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Yes. Just not everything you hear or see. It's impossible to have evidence before belief for every single thing. Even science doesn't follow evidence before belief.
Umm... yes it does. That's the very definition of science.
What's is a hypothesis?
A hypothesis is a theory formed on the basis of limited evidence that serves as a starting point for further investigation.
The scientific method can be summarized as:
Evidence -> Theory -> More Evidence -> Refine Theory -> Repeat.

Belief without evidence is religion.
 

Wing Woo Gar

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Umm... yes it does. That's the very definition of science.

A hypothesis is a theory formed on the basis of limited evidence that serves as a starting point for further investigation.
The scientific method can be summarized as:
Evidence -> Theory -> More Evidence -> Refine Theory -> Repeat.

Belief without evidence is religion.
To be more specific, I think this is merely a minor misunderstanding of terms used in this discussion. The first step in the scientific method is observation. The observation leads to a problem or question. The problem or question leads to gathering of data. The gathering of data leads to hypothesis. The hypothesis leads to experimentation. If the experimentation leads to repeatable consistent results over a period of time, the hypothesis can become a theory. A theory can also become a law under certain circumstances. I am not suggesting that the people involved here don’t know this. I am suggesting that consistently using the same terminology can preclude some of the pointless arguing that is going on regarding scientific method In this thread.
 

Steve

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That fits right into Aikido. Everything does, in the end.
I've got no idea what y'all are talking about at this point-from skimming, it seems to be god, philosophy, and/or science. Just want to say I'm impressed you're all still going strong 118 pages in, on a thread initially about aikido practitioners having difficulty in live situations.
On a phone so I can’t flip it, but I think @Oily Dragon said it best above.
Umm... yes it does. That's the very definition of science.

A hypothesis is a theory formed on the basis of limited evidence that serves as a starting point for further investigation.
The scientific method can be summarized as:
Evidence -> Theory -> More Evidence -> Refine Theory -> Repeat.

Belief without evidence is religion.

This ^^. I'll just add that the point where you decide that the science you have is what you want, and start ignoring subsequent evidence, is the point where your science becomes religion.
 

drop bear

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I've got no idea what y'all are talking about at this point-from skimming, it seems to be god, philosophy, and/or science. Just want to say I'm impressed you're all still going strong 118 pages in, on a thread initially about aikido practitioners having difficulty in live situations.

Honestly it isn't that big a jump.

The truth vs feels argument is at the core of martial arts.
 
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drop bear

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What do you mean by "those systems".

Chinese? Chinese systems have stood the test of thousands of years. If I named a hundred of them, which could you point to as "failed" in competition? One? Two? So name them.

Are there any other countries you mean? Or are you just after China.

I don't think the test of a thousand years is really all that definitive.

Astrology has stood the test of a thousand years and it is straight up bunk.
 

Dirty Dog

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I don't think the test of a thousand years is really all that definitive.

Astrology has stood the test of a thousand years and it is straight up bunk.
I think saying something has withstood the test of time sort of implies that it's been shown to be correct. A lot of things that have been around forever have stood the test of time. A lot of others have failed miserably.
 

Oily Dragon

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I don't think the test of a thousand years is really all that definitive.

Astrology has stood the test of a thousand years and it is straight up bunk.
Astrology is fake though. Stood the test of a thousand years? Not really, it was discredited hundreds of years ago.

How can you compare hand to hand fighting styles with made up fantasy?
 

Steve

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Astrology is fake though. Stood the test of a thousand years? Not really, it was discredited hundreds of years ago.

How can you compare hand to hand fighting styles with made up fantasy?
I don't want to put words in @drop bear's mouth, but it makes sense to me. While you and I look at astrology and it appears obvious that it's bunk, a lot of people believe in it. I mean, they really believe that it's a true science.

In the same way, some folks look at some of the claims of some martial arts styles, and to us, it appears obvious that it's bunk. But a lot of people really believe it.
 

drop bear

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I don't want to put words in @drop bear's mouth, but it makes sense to me. While you and I look at astrology and it appears obvious that it's bunk, a lot of people believe in it. I mean, they really believe that it's a true science.

In the same way, some folks look at some of the claims of some martial arts styles, and to us, it appears obvious that it's bunk. But a lot of people really believe it.

Yeah. I use healing crystals a lot as you can actually get an accreditation in using them. As if there is some sort of method that is better than any other method.


It is a very weird mindset.
 

Oily Dragon

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I think saying something has withstood the test of time sort of implies that it's been shown to be correct. A lot of things that have been around forever have stood the test of time. A lot of others have failed miserably.
Practically all of the claims that "CMA fails under pressure" are basically directed at a single Chinese art (Wing Chun), because of cherry picking and the popularity of Ip Man and Bruce Lee. Yet all of Wing Chun is also part of Hung Ga Kuen, Jow Ga, Choy Li Fut, all of which are hundreds of years old with a long competition history going back to the 19th century at least, before we even get to older lineages of the Ming and late Ching dynasties, and the even older Taijiquan, Tibetan, Mongolian, etc. lineages.

It's not like you can't find video online of practically every CMA, including Wing Chun, also participating in full contact rulesets. The people who believe this isn't true are the real fantasists. They saw a video where a Wing Chun guy got leveled once, so that's all they know.

And they never stop demanding you "prove" to them that CMA works. But hop just a few miles over the border to Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, the Phillipines (all of whom were heavily influenced by Chinese art) everything suddenly works. Let's face it, anti- Asian sentiment runs deep everywhere, and it's mostly directed at China and Japan because of their history as adversaries to the West.

I think a lot of people really hate on Aikido specifically because it's so different than Japan's militarization in the early to mid 20th century. It represents the failure of peace in Japanese society, and we all know what happened next.
 
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drop bear

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I think saying something has withstood the test of time sort of implies that it's been shown to be correct. A lot of things that have been around forever have stood the test of time. A lot of others have failed miserably.

Yes that is the implication. The implication is wrong.

Time is not a good way to determine effectiveness. Pre scientific method medicine is a good example here.

Which has stood the test of time and was even battlefield tested.

 

drop bear

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Astrology is fake though. Stood the test of a thousand years? Not really, it was discredited hundreds of years ago.

How can you compare hand to hand fighting styles with made up fantasy?

Seriously?
 

Oily Dragon

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Seriously?
Yeah, seriously.

Which hand to hand styles are made up like Astrology? In my experience I have yet to find a "fake" Chinese martial art. Or a Japanese one for that matter, that wasn't just made up for a movie.

Even classic Hong Kong cinema used real martial arts styles 99% of the time. They didn't need to make things up, they had huge legacies to work with. I can only think of a very small number of totally made up ones (e.g. Snake in Eagle's Shadow's "Cat Claw", created from watching a pet cat kill a cobra), and even those are objectively visually and athletically impressive.

People have told me "bow and arrow stance doesn't work! You'll get taken down!!!" but here it is. This stance is fundamental to practically every CMA aside from Wing Chun. It's even in Tai Chi to a degree (although I'm sure the Tai Chi people will beat me for saying so..)

1643401549230.png


How about Zenkutsu-dachi? Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, or Tae Kwan Do's Ap Kubi, Tang Soo Do's Chun Gul Chase.

1643401913890.png


In Aikido? This form even has Chinese names. Because it's all connected, because all fighting between humans is fundamentally the same.

I'll grant you, no idea what's going on under the hakama. Don't want to know, that old dude looks like a BAMF. Look at those biceps.

1643401727665.png
 
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Steve

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I mean, the GOOP yoni egg is my go to. goop Wellness Jade Egg | Goop

Some folks really believe it's going to provide some medicinal benefit. GOOP got sued, and were required to stop making medical claims, but they do still sell it. And people do still believe it works.
Yeah, seriously.

Which hand to hand styles are made up like Astrology? In my experience I have yet to find a "fake" Chinese martial art. Or a Japanese one for that matter, that wasn't just made up for a movie.

Even classic Hong Kong cinema used real martial arts styles 99% of the time. They didn't need to make things up, they had huge legacies to work with. I can only think of a very small number of totally made up ones (e.g. Snake in Eagle's Shadow's "Cat Claw", created from watching a pet cat kill a cobra), and even those are objectively visually and athletically impressive.

People have told me "bow and arrow stance doesn't work! You'll get taken down!!!" but here it is. This stance is fundamental to practically every CMA aside from Wing Chun. It's even in Tai Chi to a degree (although I'm sure the Tai Chi people will beat me for saying so..)

View attachment 28018

How about Zenkutsu-dachi?

View attachment 28020

In Aikido? This form even has Chinese names. Because it's all connected, because all fighting between humans is fundamentally the same.

View attachment 28019

Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to the group for your consideration toad style kung fu:


Edit: Does this count as fraud busting? I don't think we have any toad kung fu stylists on the board, so hopefully not. I am, in fact, hoping that toad style kung fu seems as ridiculous to everyone else as it does to me.
 

Oily Dragon

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Ladies and gentlemen, I submit to the group for your consideration toad style kung fu:

"Toad style is immensely strong...and immune to...."

Rule #1 of kung fu: if it takes practice to do, it's real.

I need to learn Toad style, it'd really step up my b-boy game, not to mention my wrestling prowess.

 

Oily Dragon

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Edit: Does this count as fraud busting? I don't think we have any toad kung fu stylists on the board, so hopefully not. I am, in fact, hoping that toad style kung fu seems as ridiculous to everyone else as it does to me.
Would you want him landing on you? I wouldn't....
 

drop bear

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Yeah, seriously.

Which hand to hand styles are made up like Astrology? In my experience I have yet to find a "fake" Chinese martial art. Or a Japanese one for that matter, that wasn't just made up for a movie.

Even classic Hong Kong cinema used real martial arts styles 99% of the time. They didn't need to make things up, they had huge legacies to work with. I can only think of a very small number of totally made up ones (e.g. Snake in Eagle's Shadow's "Cat Claw", created from watching a pet cat kill a cobra), and even those are objectively visually and athletically impressive.

People have told me "bow and arrow stance doesn't work! You'll get taken down!!!" but here it is. This stance is fundamental to practically every CMA aside from Wing Chun. It's even in Tai Chi to a degree (although I'm sure the Tai Chi people will beat me for saying so..)

View attachment 28018

How about Zenkutsu-dachi? Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, or Tae Kwan Do's Ap Kubi, Tang Soo Do's Chun Gul Chase.

View attachment 28020

In Aikido? This form even has Chinese names. Because it's all connected, because all fighting between humans is fundamentally the same.

I'll grant you, no idea what's going on under the hakama. Don't want to know, that old dude looks like a BAMF. Look at those biceps.

View attachment 28019

Ok. So imagine you see a small snippet of what Chuck Liddell does and then use that to rationalise what is the opposite of what actually works. And then I assume never ever test it against anyone good.

And incorporate that in to your training.

That would be a made up like astrology.

Now what chuck actually does.
 
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