Aikido.. The reality?

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Gerry Seymour

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I think he goes about it the wrong way. Give a MMA hard charger 20 minutes to learn an Aikido move and then see if he can drop Rokus with it.

Then you see Aikido with all the relevant back of house needed to make a move work.
It wouldn't be Aikido, though, it would be a technique used in Aikdio, without the aiki development. I know of no short way to develop those body principles. So I can teach a hip throw to almost anyone, and it'll look like you'd expect (rather Judo-ish). But to teach them to do it with aiki principles requires a foundation of exercises that develop those.

So, while that'd be a valid test, it'd be testing not Aikido, but the technique.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It'll take longer than 20 minutes. lol. But I get your point. I think the difference there is the training mentality. An MMA fighter would be more likely to practice the technique in sparring and will continue to work it until he understands it enough to get the right timing and situation for the technique. But I think that's true with anyone that does this with their training.

I watch Roka's spar with the karate guy and he's still trying to do the technique with the same approach where he's trying to grab a jab out of the air. I believe that in Aikido the movement is against a strike going to the body and not a jab going to the face. If I were going to try that technique, then I would think of punches where the strike is targeting that area. Then test to see if the technique works against any of those punch.

Maybe the technique is easier against these types of punches. I'm just guessing because I've never tried to grab a punch in the way that Rokas is trying to grab it. If look at this picture then I would need to spin off the center line and grab wrist as I move off center line. Maybe my opponent will turn his punch into a long guard in an effort to keep distance. This should give me enough time to complete the grab. But it's all theory for me until I can learn the technique then try to use it in sparring.
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My assertion is that the grab isn't meant to be what it is in the drill. This, again, goes to to the nature of a lot of classical training, as I understand it. The grab started from, I think, a defense against a sword thrust or similar attack, where there was more inertia on the hand movement, so it was easier to time that grab. Can it still be done against a punch? Sure, kinda. But not if you just try to grab a punch. The idea isn't - again, my take - to try to grab the punch, but to wait until your defense ends up with a punch that hangs out (they miss and overextend, for instance) and you find your hand on the arm and can disrupt structure. From there, the transition to the technique is more realistic.
 

Gerry Seymour

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And regarding Gene LeBell... yeah, the famous judoka. I had know idea he was an aikidoka. Is that what you're suggesting? Not saying it's wrong... just saying I've never heard it before. News to me, and a quick google search didn't turn up anything linking Gene LeBell and aikido. So, if you could point me to some information, I would appreciate it. I'm curious.
I seem to recall hearing a story of LeBell grading in Aikido after several months of training. Can't recall who from, though, so can't begin to guess if it was accurate.
 

Gerry Seymour

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As I was watching that video, it occurred to me that falling is one thing aikidoka actually do train a lot. They fall a lot, and with style. I bet aikido, along with tricking, parkour, and TKD, would be an excellent compliment to stunt work. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we learned that many of them do train in aikido.
I've always wanted to learn the falls they use. I learned one of them - their version of a front fall. Never really could wrap my head around the others. I always spooked folks when I visited Aikido dojos, because my falls are so much harder (ours are Judo-style) than theirs.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Yeah, this seems very familiar. It's circular logic. Because their Aikido didn't work, they are not skilled... because if they were skilled, it would have worked. I'm skilled, and my Aikido works, because I actually understand these fundamental concepts.

I am sincerely interested in whether Rokas could also explain these concepts to us. I'm guessing he could, but maybe not. Anyone have his email? If so, I'll email him some of the concepts outlined in this thread and ask him directly whether he learned them in his Aikido training.
His email is rokasleo@gmail.com
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Hey, I'm happy to email him, but would appreciate some help with the language. What exactly is it we think he doesn't know or wasn't taught? I want to be sure I get the jargon right. I'll be happy to take on writing the actual email and all that... just looking for some teamwork.
I've got no clue. I'd have to read through like 8 pages of this thread and parse them to figure it out, otherwise I would have just emailed him directly. I'm on the same page as you-some of the stuff he's said seems pretty similar to stuff Gerry has said so not sure where exactly the distinction is. Hopefully @Gerry Seymour @Mider or @O'Malley can help with that.

Alternatively, we could also ask him to pop on here and talk to a few of us, I get the feeling he might be willing to visit a martial arts forum. Not sure the kind of welcome he'd get here though..
 

drop bear

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It wouldn't be Aikido, though, it would be a technique used in Aikdio, without the aiki development. I know of no short way to develop those body principles. So I can teach a hip throw to almost anyone, and it'll look like you'd expect (rather Judo-ish). But to teach them to do it with aiki principles requires a foundation of exercises that develop those.

So, while that'd be a valid test, it'd be testing not Aikido, but the technique.

So you don't think an athletic competitive fighter would have developed aiki anyway?

I mean you try to move a really good wrestler he is like a rock. And he is like that because he shuts down your mechanical advantage.


Here we go you can see it a bit easier with a mis match.
 
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drop bear

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This stuntman is legit on gymnastics and Parkour stuff. MA's skills? Not so much.
That said, I imagine he could give most anyone a run for their money.

Martial arts are teaching the partner who gets owned more skills than the guy doing the owning.

His job is harder.

Hapkido seems to be an extreme example of this.

 

Mider

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I've got no clue. I'd have to read through like 8 pages of this thread and parse them to figure it out, otherwise I would have just emailed him directly. I'm on the same page as you-some of the stuff he's said seems pretty similar to stuff Gerry has said so not sure where exactly the distinction is. Hopefully @Gerry Seymour @Mider or @O'Malley can help with that.

Alternatively, we could also ask him to pop on here and talk to a few of us, I get the feeling he might be willing to visit a martial arts forum. Not sure the kind of welcome he'd get here though..
Who?
 

Mider

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If it helps, let's just start with you winning the argument. I'm fine with that. So, no more goal posts to move since we all know who won. :)

Regarding Dan the Wolfman, yeah, I do think it's a valid question whether he actually knew any aikido. I know how to do an RNC. Do I know ninjutsu, aikido, judo, or sambo? They all teach the same technique. So, yeah, it doesn't make sense to me that Dan learns a trick and then says he knows Aikido. I don't get it. Maybe you could explain it to me.

And regarding Gene LeBell... yeah, the famous judoka. I had know idea he was an aikidoka. Is that what you're suggesting? Not saying it's wrong... just saying I've never heard it before. News to me, and a quick google search didn't turn up anything linking Gene LeBell and aikido. So, if you could point me to some information, I would appreciate it. I'm curious.

Regarding BJJ, if it works, it's BJJ.

That is a great video. Really fun to watch that guy fall with style.

As I was watching that video, it occurred to me that falling is one thing aikidoka actually do train a lot. They fall a lot, and with style. I bet aikido, along with tricking, parkour, and TKD, would be an excellent compliment to stunt work. It wouldn't surprise me at all if we learned that many of them do train in aikido.
Yes, he knows Aikido. From my understanding each system has similarities but nuanced differences.

explain what? He learned some aikido, what Part of that dont you get?

I said he was taught aikido moves by Gene Lebell, he knows moves from many arts, again whats your point, if I throw a Muay Thai elbow its suddenly not right because I dont know the whole system?

No one system works, BJJ black belts lose all the time.
 

Mider

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umm I take offense sir. I don't move the goal post. I change the subject ha ha ha ha. but yeah. goal post moving is a thing here lol
Of course it is, half the guys here who act like their experts like,y have no credentials.

one guy told me to look up his profile, I did then looked up his school, sparring consisted of playing patty cake but to him thats good cause at least the kids are getting a work out.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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This was regarding the issues that one/all of the three of you brought up that rokas doesn't appear to understand/discuss specific aikido principles. Steve offered to write an email to him about those principles, to determine if they are part of his aikido/if he does actually understand them, so that's what that response was referring to.
 

Mider

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This was regarding the issues that one/all of the three of you brought up that rokas doesn't appear to understand/discuss specific aikido principles. Steve offered to write an email to him about those principles, to determine if they are part of his aikido/if he does actually understand them, so that's what that response was referring to.
Im not a fan of Rokas
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Im not a fan of Rokas
Yes, I read that from the earlier posts. Something one of you wrote about how he doesn't follow basic aiki principles, among other things. Which is why Steve offered to email him asking him about said principles to see if he does know of them/why he doesn't appear to demonstrate them in his videos.
 

Steve

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Yes, he knows Aikido. From my understanding each system has similarities but nuanced differences.

explain what? He learned some aikido, what Part of that dont you get?

I said he was taught aikido moves by Gene Lebell, he knows moves from many arts, again whats your point, if I throw a Muay Thai elbow its suddenly not right because I dont know the whole system?

No one system works, BJJ black belts lose all the time.
I think my point was that I have heard of Gene LeBell, the judoka. I have never heard of Gene LeBell, the aikidoka. My request was that you help a guy out by giving me some additional background on his connect to aikido, rather than making unsubstantiated claims and then getting defensive when asked about it.

My other point is that I don't agree that learning a move means you've learned an art, and think you have it all backwards. The question is, if you throw an elbow, does that mean you are trained in Muay Thai? I think we can all agree that the answer is obviously not.

My last point is, BJJ works because it's not dogmatic. BJJ guys win all the time, too.

You seem defensive.

nathan thurm.jpg
 

Steve

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Of course it is, half the guys here who act like their experts like,y have no credentials.

one guy told me to look up his profile, I did then looked up his school, sparring consisted of playing patty cake but to him thats good cause at least the kids are getting a work out.
Hey, I'll on record as a cuddly, old guy well past my prime. My shoulders are shot, and I'm much happier baking and building things than fighting anymore. But this is a discussion forum, and hopefully we're not looking to scrap with each other here. That just seems unnecessary.
 

Steve

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Yes, I read that from the earlier posts. Something one of you wrote about how he doesn't follow basic aiki principles, among other things. Which is why Steve offered to email him asking him about said principles to see if he does know of them/why he doesn't appear to demonstrate them in his videos.
Exactly. My guess is that he does, and if asked, he could probably explain them just fine.
 

Mider

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Hey, I'll on record as a cuddly, old guy well past my prime. My shoulders are shot, and I'm much happier baking and building things than fighting anymore. But this is a discussion forum, and hopefully we're not looking to scrap with each other here. That just seems unnecessary.
But I didnt mention you?
 
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