Adding to age of promotions to Black Belts?

[still learning]

Hello, Many find a 5 year old is too young for a Black Belt?

What is a good age to give a Black Belt?
What makes a Black belt?
Who deserves a Black belt?

Joe Lewis earn his Black Belt is less than 8 Months (I believe it was less than that?) ...in Okinawa ...he kept beating all the Black belts in class...Sensi said ..you are equal to a Black belt!

NO official rules or regulations and or standards equal for all....

Just each systems and schools "make" there own rules on this..

We seen 60 years old and up be promoted to Black Belts (women and men)? ...easy to meet the minumun requirements...yet on the streets? They may not survive...

Aloha, ....sure there are many over 60 years that is stronger and faster...we are talking about the general populatons...not the top 20%..

PS: ...today with Black Belts is slowly losing it meaning....once when reach this level...was consider a great fighter and defender...look around...is this still true..
also defining its meaning..will be a personal one..of one beliefs too...

Is a Black Belt a technical school base or should a Black Belt be a physcial base for promotions?

 

[Xinglu]

For me it just comes down to the ability to apply the knowledge you've learned in that style.

There are also some non-tangibles, like maturity, humility, dedication, and discipline that should IMO be considered.

 

[dianhsuhe]

In our system you must be at least 18 years old to receive your Shodan. (Unless the board of sirectors makes an exception)

It would be hard to imagine someone that is not yet 10 years old, having the requisite skills. LOL

 

[Shinobi Teikiatsu]

To be quick, I think the requisite for becoming a black belt should be 18 years of age, a good knowledge of the system or style's basics and fighting techniques (simply being able to beat up other black belts doesn't mean you have skill in the style, such as a person with 20 years experience in karate who switched to hapkido, they may be able to beat a black belt, but not with Hapkido), a written exam and a certain amount of victories in a sparring session under a given time.

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,

I agree... Black belts should not be bestowed lightly.

We allow black belt at 16 YOA, at the earliest. 18 is the "usual" earliest. The 16 year old, in question, was an extremely gifted and mature female. Could give it out and take it with the adults. Even enjoyed it. She has been the only black belt under 19 years I would have considered. She was an exception. 16 is certainly not the norm. Nor, should it be.

Junior black belt is another matter. Those can be bestowed at any age, technically. There has never been one given that I know of under 10, or 12 YOA. I think that 5 years old is too young in any case. Gosh, can they ride a bike by then? I remember years ago Chuck Norris' 9 year old black belt Philip Paley, and the stir that caused. 9 years is "OLD" in this case.

I agree, too, that the black belt level's significance has waned in recent years. Perhaps the natural progression of popularity and an increase of participants "contributions"? Playing the piano well used to be a novelity. As there are many more gifted students these days, the novelity is less so. There are many more black belts today then there were 30 or 40 years ago. Good, and bad, I think. Quality should be key, not quantity. Usually, but not always the case.

The best measure of a practitioner are their teachers and their peers.

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[MJS]

Hello, Many find a 5 year old is too young for a Black Belt?

1)What is a good age to give a Black Belt?
2)What makes a Black belt?
3)Who deserves a Black belt?

1) No earlier than 16yrs old.

2) Someone who is mature enough to understand what the BB is. Someone who can not only do the material but knows the material, someone who can understand it, teach it, etc.

3) See #2. I'll also say that the 1st degree test, should be one of the most demanding, both physically and mentally, tests, that the person will ever take in their martial arts journey. If you're not putting in some blood, sweat and tears, and really busting your ***, then IMO, you dont deserve it. The black belt signifies, IMO, a period of time when the person has a solid understanding of the material. Once BB is reached, this person now needs to begin the next part of their journey. As I said in #2, you now need to expand your knowledge and really start breaking down the material even moreso.

Joe Lewis earn his Black Belt is less than 8 Months (I believe it was less than that?) ...in Okinawa ...he kept beating all the Black belts in class...Sensi said ..you are equal to a Black belt!

Refresh me...did he have prior MA training? Regardless, you'll always have an exception to the rule. I've seen kids and adults in class, that smoke the others. Now, this doesnt mean that they should necessarily be fast tracked to black, but there is no reason why you still can't challenge them a bit more.

Of course, just because you have prior ranking, does not mean that you should get your BB is 1 yr, vs the 4-6 that it usually takes.

NO official rules or regulations and or standards equal for all....

Just each systems and schools "make" there own rules on this..

We seen 60 years old and up be promoted to Black Belts (women and men)? ...easy to meet the minumun requirements...yet on the streets? They may not survive...

Aloha, ....sure there are many over 60 years that is stronger and faster...we are talking about the general populatons...not the top 20%..

PS: ...today with Black Belts is slowly losing it meaning....once when reach this level...was consider a great fighter and defender...look around...is this still true..
also defining its meaning..will be a personal one..of one beliefs too...

Is a Black Belt a technical school base or should a Black Belt be a physcial base for promotions?

No, there never will be a universal standard in the arts or a standard for each art, meaning, a set way that all TKD schools promote, a way that all Kenpo schools promote, etc. Some people today are more concerned with the cash than anything else, and whats sad, is there're so many that're blind to this fact. "Well, Masters so and so said he was worty so he must be!" I call ******** on that. Why? Because those master really dont give a **** about the person, and why should they, because that person is writing them a big fat check.

The BB doesnt mean much due to the fact that while some think it means they're capable of defending against anything, that they're invincible, in reality they're not. Its not just knowing the material.

The BB, IMHO, is something that should be earned, with lots of hard work, and the bumps, bruises and pain that come with it. Not just handed out because the student was at their prior rank for the required time, even though their basics suck.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Personally, I think BB should reflect the ability to properly use the MA in a Martial way, be it Judo, Ninjutsu, Karate, whatever. It is still a MARTIAL art after all. And said person should also be mature enough to be able to judge when to fight and when not, and with a modicum of life's experience in order to be able to put things in context (what are the real world consequences of actions).

In Genbukan the cut-off age is 18 or 16, and this is young enough imo.

 

[TigerLove]

I think there is two things matter in this story:

1. Black belt can be deserved for tehnique knowledge and ability to apply tehniques and moves properly in high stress situations, and psyhology benefits - you may better understand what i think under psyhology benefits if i say i would connect this to budism interract to martial arts. In this case definition of martial arts black belt would be - very smart person, which founded some way of internal peace, full of love and respect for him and for others, a "big child" - but also deadly and brutal fighter if it is proper response to given situation.

2. Black belt can be deserved for tehnique knowledge and ability to apply tehniques and moves properly in high stress situations.

I think number one is more proper (and that's my way in martial arts), but not in today world full of judgements. What would be if what i mentioned under number one would be official standing for ma master? Then people would expect from you to be all that perfect person, and that wouldn't be good. Still, one have choice to choose this way in martial arts.

And, i think number two is what today are actual - and i think it is not so proper, but today many things are not proper. But, if i say it's not full proper, i don't say it's wrong.

The good thing that through ma many people with time became what i mentioned in number one, regardless of their way - from person to person but generally good - did you ever saw black belt who was total idiot (expect ones who deserved black belt after 4 months of training and some cash)? So, in the end, both ways are proper.

Maybe i just can say that martial arts are proper way.

And, years doesn't then play a role - at 12 years old one can have great tehnique and offcourse can't focus on psihology (well, he is 12). With time, as i said, he will become closer to what i mentioned under number one.

 

[Bruno@MT]

2. Black belt can be deserved for tehnique knowledge and ability to apply tehniques and moves properly in high stress situations.

And, years doesn't then play a role - at 12 years old one can have great tehnique and offcourse can't focus on psihology (well, he is 12). With time, as i said, he will become closer to what i mentioned under number one.

At 12 years I am willing to consider the idea that a kid can use his MA effectively against an adult. It will depend on the kid, and in the majority of cases I'd probably still say no, but it is possible.

A 5 year old kid, however, stands no chance of kicking my 32 year old 9th kyu ***. Short of running away (which is the best thing to do for a kid against an adult) there is nothing that kid can do to prevent me from spanking him or her.

 

[TigerLove]

Offcourse 12 or 5 years kid can't beat an 32 years man, no matter conditions. But, i don't see role of this fact in this discussion.

Maybe i am missing something?

 

[Bruno@MT]

A 12 year old -could- beat me. When I was 18 or 19, I was choked out by an 11 year old kid in our JJ dojo. That kids was as strong as a bear, and he had been doing JJ for several years. Should he have earned his BB at 16 or so, I would have considered that appropriate.

Black belt should reflect ability to effectively use what you have learned. A 5 year old BB is ridiculous. A 15 or 16 year old ... maybe not. In that regard, age and physical development matters.

 

[TigerLove]

Agree, in that regard yes. I still agree with my post, with addon that giving black belts under age 15 is ridiciolus from watching from any corner.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Masahiko Kimura..started Judo at age 10 and was a fourth Degree BB by age 18...at age 20 was a 5th Degree..by age 29 became a 7th Degree and was consider "unbeatable"...Known as the "Judo God"..

What is the best age to starting promoting people to Black Belts?

What makes a Black Belt? .....

If a child starts at 5 years old and keeping training...maybe able to earn a Black Belt by age 15 (10 years of training) ....or should they wait till 18 years old?

an 18 year old who starts and earn his belt in 2-3 years? ...is this fair?

Aloha, ....still selling black belts...at Wal-mart prices...call today? >>>NOT!

 

[shaolin-warrior]

As martial artists we test and promote our colored ranks on competency. This in no way indicates the students ability to defend themselves with the technique, it merely means that they have worked hard to learn the block/strike/takedown sequence of events. Is this a bad thing? No, it speaks volumes and lends credibility to the martial arts, this basic principle is why martial arts training so valuable. It allows students to experience first hand a great sense of accomplishment, it teaches them to set and achieve short term goals, it helps them to focus and teaches them self sense discipline, and it also builds self esteem. While these are all positive aspects of martial arts, for every yin there is a yang. The down side to competency testing is that we build a martial artist unprepared to defend them self, we send them out into the world with a false sense of confidence. Let’s face it, who wants their nine year old son armed with the competency and the self confidence to hurt, mame or possibly even kill a would be attacker. Martial arts training for children is not a self defense system; I equate it to giving your child a toy gun and a truck load of flat screen TV's and dropping them of on the bad side of town to protect their inventory. It’s not going to happen, does that mean that only 180 pound 14 year old kids jacked on bovine growth hormone should be able to test for black belt. No absolutely not. I’ve got news for all you martial artists with a 3rd degree brown belt and six years invested in the martial arts, you’ve worked so hard at becoming competent at your skills, and eventually you will test for and earn your black belt. Welcome to the white belt advanced class. You know all the basic and I do mean basic block/ strike/takedown sequence of events. Now while we progress from novice to intermediate level martial artists, we start the long road to perfecting what it is we do, and we have a few years and many bumps and bruises until we earn another red stripe on our still crisp Shodan Belt. Competency is no longer an issue, if it was, you wouldn't have gotten this far. The new task at hand is confidence. With nothing but time on your hands, use it wisely. Be like the watch maker; take apart every one of your techniques, fine tune and adjust them, look for the physical intent and not just the content, work body mechanics and proper weight distribution, strike with maximum efficiency not just proficiency. Learn to master the machine that is your body,then and only then will you have the ability to walk the walk.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Personally, I think BB should reflect the ability to properly use the MA in a Martial way, be it Judo, Ninjutsu, Karate, whatever. It is still a MARTIAL art after all. And said person should also be mature enough to be able to judge when to fight and when not, and with a modicum of life's experience in order to be able to put things in context (what are the real world consequences of actions).

I agree. You can't really go by age alone. For example, my son, who just turned 16 a week ago is 6'1 and 170-175 pounds. He's huge and still growing, he's already bigger than many "adults". He trained briefly in Sil Lum Kung Fu and TKD, he's no where close to a BB. But lets say he trained continually from the age of 9, when he started, till now. He would be very skilled and could probably beat most anything coming at him. BUT, knowing MY son, that ability to judge when to fight and when to not, would be an issue. All kids are different, but I'm talking about my own son's cognitive abilities.

So, it all really comes down to what Bruno@MT mentioned. It is not a cut and dry issue of, well you're 16, or 18, or 21, so you can be issued a BB. It comes down to:

should reflect the ability to properly use the MA in a Martial way

 

[MJS]

Some interesting posts regarding the age, size and ability. Sure, you could have a 6'0, 170lb 12 yr old. So matching him against a 30yr old, 200lb, 5'10 adult, technically seems like an even match, however, I doubt, with the exception of a rare case, that you'll match the mental ability. You will always have the exception to the rule, but again, those cases are the exception.

Still Learning...you mention the Judo guy. (Gee, theres a surprise, you talking about Judo ) But again, that would be an exception, just like Joe Lewis. I'll also go so far to say that it will also depend on prior martial arts training. I could most likely walk into any Kenpo school, Kaju school or even a TKD school, and be capable of picking up things much quicker than someone with no prior training. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, so with the exception of a slight modification to conform to how that school does the kicks and punches, I already know how to do those things. The techniques and kata...that would probably take a bit longer, but again, with prior knowledge, I might be able to understand whats being taught easier than someone with no training.

I'm also not a fan of time frames, as I mentioned in my last post. I bet that I can walk into any school, ask how long it takes to get from white to my first belt and be given an answer. The same with the other belts as well. Those time frames are not, or should not be set in stone. Think about it...take 2 people, 2 adults. Adult A trains 1 time a week in class, and 1-2 times on his own at home. Adult 2 trains 3 times a week at the dojo, takes 1 private lesson a month and trains 30min at home on off class nights. Who do you think will move faster? Its common sense! So should adult A move along at the same pace as B, just because the 2 month time frame is up? No, of course not.

Keep in mind, that even Adult B, may have a slight learning disability. So while he still works harder than Adult A, he may need to have things shown to him 20 times before he gets it, where Adult C, who trains just as hard as B, but is shown something 1 time and can recall it with no issues.

Time frames are a ball park rough idea, nothing more, IMO. Sad part is, people don't understand this. That 2 mos. is up and they damn well expect to be promoted. Doesn't work that way. Additionally, the student should not be asking or expecting a promotion. When it happens, it happens. Its so much more than just a time. I've already listed my reasons in my other post. I dont care if the person put in the required time....if they suck, then they suck and do not deserve a promotion...period!

 

[Jade Tigress]

Some interesting posts regarding the age, size and ability. Sure, you could have a 6'0, 170lb 12 yr old. So matching him against a 30yr old, 200lb, 5'10 adult, technically seems like an even match, however, I doubt, with the exception of a rare case, that you'll match the mental ability. You will always have the exception to the rule, but again, those cases are the exception.

Still Learning...you mention the Judo guy. (Gee, theres a surprise, you talking about Judo ) But again, that would be an exception, just like Joe Lewis. I'll also go so far to say that it will also depend on prior martial arts training. I could most likely walk into any Kenpo school, Kaju school or even a TKD school, and be capable of picking up things much quicker than someone with no prior training. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, so with the exception of a slight modification to conform to how that school does the kicks and punches, I already know how to do those things. The techniques and kata...that would probably take a bit longer, but again, with prior knowledge, I might be able to understand whats being taught easier than someone with no training.

I'm also not a fan of time frames, as I mentioned in my last post. I bet that I can walk into any school, ask how long it takes to get from white to my first belt and be given an answer. The same with the other belts as well. Those time frames are not, or should not be set in stone. Think about it...take 2 people, 2 adults. Adult A trains 1 time a week in class, and 1-2 times on his own at home. Adult 2 trains 3 times a week at the dojo, takes 1 private lesson a month and trains 30min at home on off class nights. Who do you think will move faster? Its common sense! So should adult A move along at the same pace as B, just because the 2 month time frame is up? No, of course not.

Keep in mind, that even Adult B, may have a slight learning disability. So while he still works harder than Adult A, he may need to have things shown to him 20 times before he gets it, where Adult C, who trains just as hard as B, but is shown something 1 time and can recall it with no issues.

Time frames are a ball park rough idea, nothing more, IMO. Sad part is, people don't understand this. That 2 mos. is up and they damn well expect to be promoted. Doesn't work that way. Additionally, the student should not be asking or expecting a promotion. When it happens, it happens. Its so much more than just a time. I've already listed my reasons in my other post. I dont care if the person put in the required time....if they suck, then they suck and do not deserve a promotion...period!

QFT. You said it better than I did Mike.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello, Masahiko Kimura..started Judo at age 10 and was a fourth Degree BB by age 18...at age 20 was a 5th Degree..by age 29 became a 7th Degree and was consider "unbeatable"...Known as the "Judo God"..

What is the best age to starting promoting people to Black Belts?

What makes a Black Belt? .....

If a child starts at 5 years old and keeping training...maybe able to earn a Black Belt by age 15 (10 years of training) ....or should they wait till 18 years old?

an 18 year old who starts and earn his belt in 2-3 years? ...is this fair?

Aloha, ....still selling black belts...at Wal-mart prices...call today? >>>NOT!

Is time in grade your only parameter?

And what is up with this fairness thing?

Maybe I am just too old school, but I thought students were supposed to be promoted to black belt because they were ready, not just because the other guy got his. Not everyone learns or develops at the same rate.

You mention exceptional people to justify either a brief time in rank or very young ages with high rank. Exceptional people are just that: exceptional and are, by definition, exceptions.

And besides, not all exceptional students advance quickly or get promoted to high ranks

Dolph Lundgren is exceptional. He was competing against and beating black belts when he was a Kyokushin green belt (age 22). He is an exceptional man. Most of us are not so blessed with his physical characteristics or athletic ability. Thus 99% of hard training Kyokushin green belts will not be able to go into a Kyokushin tournament and handle black belts.

And notice that Lundgren never went beyond third dan (unless he has recently tested for fourth). Inspite of his tremendous ability, he was not fast tracked to a high rank. Not even after promoting martial arts and making movies with martial arts themes. Presumably, he started in his late teens and is a third dan at over fifty years of age.

So how is that fair? Following the logic in both your OP and your quoted post above, he should be a fifteenth dan super-soke. I mean, a lot of individuals are awarded high ranks for promoting the martial arts, sometimes in systems that they have not even trained in. Why not old Dolph? Funny, but in his interviews, he discusses martial arts and almost never mentions rank unless asked, and then he simply answers the question.

Gichin Funakoshi was fifth dan when he died. I guess he should have read the memo that he should have been fifth dan before he was twenty five. I mean, he is considered by many to be the father of modern karate, for crying out loud.

While there may not be any carved in stone rules, there are some characteristics that are generally accepted. One of them is that a blackbelt can fight well and fight dynamically, and has become proficient in the kyu grade material. Maturity is also a generally accepted characteristic.

You may notice that the belt factories try to make you believe that their kiddie belts are the equivalent of adults in their literature. There is a reason for this: They know that there are generally accepted characteristics so they pattern their literature to give the appearance that their child belts have obtained said characteristics.

What is the best age to starting promoting people to Black Belts?

There is not a best age. It is when the student is ready, both in terms of proficiency with the style, the ability to use the style dynamically, and in terms of maturity and depth of knowledge. The black belt needs to be able to handle themselves against an adult attacker.

What makes a Black Belt? .....

A sewing machine.

Daniel

 

[Stuey]

Speculation about the BB will inevitably lead us to de-value it. Rather, think about what your BB means to you. PPL say it should be earned after at least X years, or by upwards of X age. That is unfair and there are always exceptions. The truth is that if you dont know the circumstances or the person you dont know if a BB has been earned in your own eyes or not. I consider myself to be highly dubious of a 5 YO BB, but I dont know enough to make a decision on if it is deserved or not. I know that my 5 YO does not have the presence of mind to be as concentrated as I believe a BB needs to be, but that revolves around my POV of what a BB is. If I were in the same school or system as the 5YO I may lose all pride and drive in that system if I were to speculate. That is not fair since it may be a perfectly legitimate system and worthwhile to me.
In the system I study a BB is poss at any age, although the 2nd dan is min of 18YO. I believe all the BB's are above 15 (and have earned it in my eyes) although there is one who could be as young as 13YO (although I dont think she is) and she kicks my butt regularly (I am 29 and about 5'10 @ 10St). The point is that even if she is 13 she deserves the grade in my eyes. Even if she did not deserve the grade in my eyes that doesnt mean that I will not earn it one day in my own eyes. I would be more dissappointed if I were a BB and felt like I hadnt earned it or wasnt ready. How a minor got to BB is for them to analyse, no matter what my observations. The only way a BB should be viewed as a bad thing is if the BB themselves dont feel like they earned it. Or any grade for that matter.

 

[pete]

just be happy with your own training and let others do what they may to satisfy their own needs. black belt... $3.99 at JC Penny.