(Actually) Training at home

[Russian]

Hello.

First off I wanna say sorry because I know this subject has been discussed before, in this forum as well as others, but I was unable to get a final definite answer. The answers I found varied greatly.

Short version:
Is it possible to learn Systema from a set of DVDs?

Long version:
After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets. I've deeply searched every class in my area and I was unable to find anything that focuses on actual self defense rather than sport and competitions.
I have two choices - either to take a class that I know will not work for me, or to learn by books and DVDs. I have to say that self-teaching has never disappointed me, but this is a special case.
So far I have various Systema DVDs by Vladimir Vasiliev, teaching all sorts of useful stuff(hand to hand, knife disarming, combat in tight spaces, proper breathing, some others I can't recall).
I plan to give a copy to my friend, who is as interested as I am, and each will watch a DVD we agree upon. We will memorize the material and repeat the moves by ourselves(on thin air). Then we meet, watch the DVD, and criticize each other until we believe both of us are doing the exercise correctly(on each other, and thin air). We will also practice punches and kicks and organize regular fights.
Of course, this will be practiced along a proper workout program.

So yeah... Can it be done, why/why not, and how? What are some tips and notes that you can offer?
Really, any sort of help is appreciated.


Thanks in advance!

 

[Blindside]

Short answer because I am holding a wiggling 4 month old, no it cannot be done well. I am not saying this about just Systema, I am talking about any martial art. If the "only" thing you have is a ring art, learn that, it will do you better than a "street" system learned half-assed from video.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Short answer because I am holding a wiggling 4 month old, no it cannot be done well. I am not saying this about just Systema, I am talking about any martial art. If the "only" thing you have is a ring art, learn that, it will do you better than a "street" system learned half-assed from video.

Ordinarily, I would completely agree with this. However, it is POSSIBLE (not probable, but possible) that because you have experience in a ring, and (should) know the basics of fighting, and have a friend to discuss everything with, you MAY be able to learn something through videos. However, boxing IMHO is not 'complete' enough to give you the basics that you would need for that, which lowers your ability to comprehend the style. Even if it was 'complete', you still wouldn't be able to understand everything without a proper instructor. Also, you mentioned that one of the problems was that boxing is 1-on-1, and streetfights aren't, but you're only going to fight the one friend (which i presumes means it would be 1-on-1 as well)? May not be the best way to gain experience. My suggestion would be to find another friend who practices a different style of martial arts, pool all your information together and teach each other, and practice 2-on-1 fights (or more if you can find more people). Would probably be your best bet considering your aim is just to defend yourself properly.
P.S. Don't think I'm insulting boxing by it's not complete. I have a huge respect for boxing and boxers. However, it focuses purely on handwork, and ignores grappling, kicks and weapons/countering weapons, all of which are fundamental parts to fighting.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is it possible? Sure. Nearly anything is at least theoretically possible.
Areyou likely to learn it well or properly? Absolutely not. Find a school, even if it means changing styles.

 

[Cyriacus]

Problem is, when You criticise each other, itll be from the conclusions Youve drawn from interpriting the videos. If You misinterprit something, Youre 'correcting' incorrectly. It isnt reliable at all. You could, however, make a syllabus of self practice based on the principles in the videos. A punch is a punch, and the technical differences can be translated a bit based on Your experience. I suggest not trying to learn Systema, but since talking people out of this sort of thing doesnt seem to work, if You do do it, I suggest learning what theyre doing, with less focus on exactly how They do it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You will not find a final definite answer because there isn't one. You can ask all you like, you will never get everyone to agree. I wish you the best of luck and I hope you are able to find a solution that works for you. If it were me, I'd do whatever it took to find live training from a competent instructor, even if it meant moving to a place where the training was available. I find it hard to believe that where physical attacks are high, self-defense training does not exist. Usually self-defense training shows up where needed.

 

[Russian]

Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.

As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.

So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Well I have to admit I saw it coming, but it was worth a shot. I suppose I will not learn fighting from the videos, but I will at least watch them because I find them interesting.

As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.

So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?

It would not be possible to say which of them is better for you, because of two things.

1) You. Everyone is different, has different physical and mental characteristics, and will be better suited for one sort of training or another.
2) The instruction. Just because it says "XYZ" on the door doesn't mean that's what they teach, or that they teach it well. I'd prefer to learn from a competent instructor in any art rather than a poor one in an art I liked.

I'd recommend taking some time - this is not a race - and visiting each training center. Talk to the instructors, find out who they are and what their credentials are. Take notes! You're not insulting them by checking up on them later, see if they are 'known' and have a reputation outside of their own training center, good or bad. Watch a typical evening of training; if they invite you to join them on the floor, give it a shot. See how your body feels and responds to the type of training they do and how you feel about it. There is no shame and no blame in deciding that a given art just isn't what you're into; move on to the next.

Everyone is different. You must find your own path, no one can advise you which path to take.

 

[MJS]

Hello.

First off I wanna say sorry because I know this subject has been discussed before, in this forum as well as others, but I was unable to get a final definite answer. The answers I found varied greatly.

Short version:
Is it possible to learn Systema from a set of DVDs?

Long version:
After 3 years my gym closed, and so did my boxing class. But I still wanna continue training. I've been attacked several times during my life, and it taught me the same thing again and again - I am not capable of defending myself. I rock at the ring(best in my class), but in a real battle it's harder to control myself. Especially because there are *always* numerous attackers, and it's *always* a surprise. And please trust me when I say I do my best to avoid danger, and it still happens.
So anyway, I would like to learn something more modern and actual for today's streets. I've deeply searched every class in my area and I was unable to find anything that focuses on actual self defense rather than sport and competitions.
I have two choices - either to take a class that I know will not work for me, or to learn by books and DVDs. I have to say that self-teaching has never disappointed me, but this is a special case.
So far I have various Systema DVDs by Vladimir Vasiliev, teaching all sorts of useful stuff(hand to hand, knife disarming, combat in tight spaces, proper breathing, some others I can't recall).
I plan to give a copy to my friend, who is as interested as I am, and each will watch a DVD we agree upon. We will memorize the material and repeat the moves by ourselves(on thin air). Then we meet, watch the DVD, and criticize each other until we believe both of us are doing the exercise correctly(on each other, and thin air). We will also practice punches and kicks and organize regular fights.
Of course, this will be practiced along a proper workout program.

So yeah... Can it be done, why/why not, and how? What are some tips and notes that you can offer?
Really, any sort of help is appreciated.


Thanks in advance!

Welcome to the forum! This is a topic that has been discussed numerous times. You will no doubt, see 2 sides to this debate...one side that says yes you can learn, and the other that says no, you can't. I fall into the no you cant. Let me explain a bit further. I've been in the arts for 26yrs now. I'm fairly sure that I could pick up a Kenpo dvd and learn from it. Why? Kenpo is the art that I've done the longest. I'm sure I could pick up a TKD dvd and mimic the moves, getting a basic idea, BUT, in the end, thats ALL I'll get...a basic idea. I wont learn the fine points or anything else, because I'm not with a live teacher, someone who can correct my mistakes. For example...since stopping Kenpo, I began a new journey in Kyokushin. Been doing that for over a year now. My teacher has a very watchful eye, and is always on the floor, making small or major corrections on everyone in the class. Without that, IMHO, everyone would be performing wrong. Who wants to do that? Of course, if someone is ok with that, then fine, it is what it is. Myself...I want to be as good as I possibly can, and without a teacher, then IMO, that wont happen.

 

[jks9199]

Let me take a different direction, because what you're looking for isn't really what you think it is. You want skills that will work under a specific pressure. You need to shape your training towards that pressure, instead of towards the ring or sparring. If you do that -- it doesn't matter what you train in. I suspect that the Systema folks hereabouts will tell you that it's impossible to learn Systema from video or in the way that you're describing because there's more to Systema than the physical techniques.

Look into the reality based self defense movement. Take some of their exercises and drills, and use your boxing skills within in those drills.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As about finding a school - I have several available including Aikido, Karate, Wing Chung and civilian Krav Maga.
Now the best choice for me is obviously Krav, but since it's the civilian variant it lacks some of the most interesting techniques. Another problem is that class takes place 2 times a week but I can only attend 1.

So which of these is best suited for me, given the previously explained goal of self defense on the street? Also, if none of those match, what should I look for(although I'm pretty sure I went over every class available)?

As has been stated, any of these can work, it depends on you. I believe any of these can help with street-fighting (although it may be better to post on each area's forum to get the 'experts' for each art's opinions).

As for Krav Maga not having the interesting techniques...does that matter? If you understand the principles well enough through study with an instructor, you should be able to come up with 'interesting' techniques by yourself. Besides, interesting doesn't neccessarily mean effective, the more effective, basic ones are the ones that you will (probably) be learning in those classes.

 

[Instructor]

Welcome to Martial Talk, Russian. Without being pro or con I do support the idea that a local teacher (that you enjoy working with) is generally best.


Good Luck,
Jon

 

[Flying Crane]

DIFINITIVE ANSWER: no, you cannot learn any art strictly from video, so don't waste your time and money. Video can be a useful supplement IF IF IF you have steady and regular face-to-face and hands-on training with a competent instructor.

Yes, you can learn to mimick an art by watching video. This is not the same thing as learning it.

Might this mimickry be useful in self defense? Possibly, but I wouldn't bet the outhouse on it.

 

[J W]

It would not be possible to say which of them is better for you, because of two things.

1) You. Everyone is different, has different physical and mental characteristics, and will be better suited for one sort of training or another.
2) The instruction. Just because it says "XYZ" on the door doesn't mean that's what they teach, or that they teach it well. I'd prefer to learn from a competent instructor in any art rather than a poor one in an art I liked.

I'd recommend taking some time - this is not a race - and visiting each training center. Talk to the instructors, find out who they are and what their credentials are. Take notes! You're not insulting them by checking up on them later, see if they are 'known' and have a reputation outside of their own training center, good or bad. Watch a typical evening of training; if they invite you to join them on the floor, give it a shot. See how your body feels and responds to the type of training they do and how you feel about it. There is no shame and no blame in deciding that a given art just isn't what you're into; move on to the next.

Everyone is different. You must find your own path, no one can advise you which path to take.

Yeah, what he said.

I would point out, though, that even if you receive excellent training and are able to fight as well on the street as you can in the ring, it may not make much of a difference if you are attacked by a group and they end up being armed.

Martial arts training may not be enough to keep you safe. I know you said that you've done your best to avoid danger, so I'm sure this is easier said than done, but you may need to take a step back and really figure out how you can keep these situations from occuring.

 

[Russian]

As has been stated, any of these can work, it depends on you. I believe any of these can help with street-fighting (although it may be better to post on each area's forum to get the 'experts' for each art's opinions).

As for Krav Maga not having the interesting techniques...does that matter? If you understand the principles well enough through study with an instructor, you should be able to come up with 'interesting' techniques by yourself. Besides, interesting doesn't neccessarily mean effective, the more effective, basic ones are the ones that you will (probably) be learning in those classes.

I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.


@jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

 

[Flying Crane]

I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.


@jks9199 I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

I think you may have it backwards. In the military, they have the unenviable task of teaching a H2H method to a large group of people, in a short period of time, and those people have a wide range of ability, interest, and committment to that training. H2H is taught as a minimal backup plan, while the vast majority of combative training centers around the use of the weaponry.

so what happens is, a "military" H2H combat method is usually very basic and even dumbed down so that all recruits are able to get something out of it, even those who might not be very bright and might not have any real interest in it.

When I see something advertised as "military" I take that as my cue to walk the other way.

 

[Russian]

I think you may have it backwards. In the military, they have the unenviable task of teaching a H2H method to a large group of people, in a short period of time, and those people have a wide range of ability, interest, and committment to that training. H2H is taught as a minimal backup plan, while the vast majority of combative training centers around the use of the weaponry.

so what happens is, a "military" H2H combat method is usually very basic and even dumbed down so that all recruits are able to get something out of it, even those who might not be very bright and might not have any real interest in it.

When I see something advertised as "military" I take that as my cue to walk the other way.

I see your point, but my interest in martial arts such as Krav Maga and Systema still lies in their selection of defensive as well as offensive moves, with or without weaponry.

 

[Flying Crane]

I see your point, but my interest in martial arts such as Krav Maga and Systema still lies in their selection of defensive as well as offensive moves, with or without weaponry.

fair enough, you make your own choices and those are probably perfectly fine systems if taught by a competent instructor. but in my experience with several different martial arts, those bone breaks, joint breaks, use of knives and sticks, are pretty common amongst most of what's out there. You don't need to search for any special system for that kind of thing, tho when it comes to the weaponry a lot of what is taught is questionable at best, and some systems do it better than others. But that has nothing to do with it being a military method, it's just that some systems make the weaponry a heavier focus than others.

 

[Takai]

I believe I explained myself improperly. There are 3 reasons I study martial arts - sports, self defense, and offense. I'm not saying that I'm gonna grab a knife and slice everyone's throats if I feel threatened, but I will feel a lot more comfortable if I will know how to properly use a knife in battle for example. That's why I'm leaning more towards military martial arts - they not only teach you to defend yourself but to break joints and bones, fight with a knife/stick and even kill with your bare hands(or with a weapon). Such moves are not taught in any of my local classes.

Welcome to MT. You will find a myriad collection of information here to answer questions you didn't even know you had. (I know that I do.....frequently)

1) Military H2H is designed more to be able to "get back to your tools quickly". This could be a knife but, is primarily a firearm. And they "can" be very efficient at that. Military H2H is not the designed for the same environment as a "civilian" version. It is designed for a rapid uptake of simplified movements and techniques be taught to a couple hundred 18 year old's every 8 weeks.

2) Where do you think that the military systems came from? They did not just evolve out of thin air. They are adaptations and revisions of other systems. This can be good and bad. All of this comes down to what a lot of other people have said....A good instructor is a poor system is better than a poor instructor in a good system.

3) You mentioned Aikido and Wing Chun are available. Both of those arts are excellent representations of how to break bones/joints quickly. Aikido works sword, tanto and jo staff for weapons and Wing Chun takes a little longer to get to weapons. The time to become proficient may take a while but, defending yourself is an endeavour that I feel is well worth the blood and sweat required to learn.

My advice would be to spend time looking at each of your options and doing your research on each instructor. It may take sometime but, it will allow you to make the most informed decision.

After all, isn't you welfare worth it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Russian-What JKS is referring to is something normally called RBSD, and is a movement that's continuing to get more and more support (in america at least, I don't know how it fares in other countries). Basically what it is is a training that focuses on how to deal with self defense 'in the street' and in a variety of situations. I believe it focuses not just on the fighting aspect but also on what to do in the 'pre-conflict' and 'post-conflict' stages. It's (supposedly) really useful, and would be perfect for what you want (I'm not an expert on RBSD, so if I am wrong somehow, or someone knows more on its movement in other countries, please correct/expand on what I said).

As for the learning to use weapons effectively, outside of RBSD, the only art I would feel confident recommending would be the filipino martial arts.To be perfectly honest (and i'm sure at least one or two people will post disagreeing with me) fma are the only martial arts where i feel the modern weapon training is competent enough to teach and actually be useful in real life.