A study in street violence

Tez3

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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f97_1250293447

These drunken thugs were caught on CCTV and convicted using this evidence but it's interesting to note the course of the attack, does it confirm your impressions of how an attack goes or does it make you think that perhaps your training isn't correct after all?
 

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Raises a number of questions. Was the victim part of the group? Why did the others try to stop the attacker in such a half hearted way? Who was the second guy attacked? Was he part of the group?
An excellent example of the reason you can't afford to take a dive.
Seems almost as if they split into two groups but hard to follow closely. Starts off two one. The lone person falls to the ground on top of his attacker. The second attacker tries to punch and kick the s#*t out of him. Forth guy gets rid of the second attacker. Throughout the clip this 'rescuer' keeps pulling people off and no-one has a go at him. He actually uses good controlling technique. Then there's a guy with a hood who also appears to try and soothe things and a couple more who take a shot when they think they won't get hit.
Doesn't change anything for me. I reckon a few well placed hits would have stopped most of it in seconds. That's what makes me think that they might be 'friends', in which case the age old question .. who needs enemies?
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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f97_1250293447

These drunken thugs were caught on CCTV and convicted using this evidence but it's interesting to note the course of the attack, does it confirm your impressions of how an attack goes or does it make you think that perhaps your training isn't correct after all?


Unfortunately the video does not show the beginning of the conflict. Could they run away, or could they avoid it?

As to the random walking around and people coming and going and running in and leaving and then others coming in the help the bad guys is something I have seen before.


Does it effect my training? No. I have already looked at that from personal experience and training.
 

sgtmac_46

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http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f97_1250293447

These drunken thugs were caught on CCTV and convicted using this evidence but it's interesting to note the course of the attack, does it confirm your impressions of how an attack goes or does it make you think that perhaps your training isn't correct after all?

Yeah, that's pretty much been my experience with how those things typically work.......stereotypical drunken violence. Even without the narrative that this was outside a pub, it's obviously an outside the pub brawl......this is exactly the kind of fight that's fueled by alcohol.
 

still learning

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Hello, NO two fights will ever be the same...

Most fights is fast and furious...weapons can be use anytime...anyone can jumb in...NO rules...ANYTHING GOES!

One key to success...is physcial fitness...to be able to last the lenghts of time...

Most street fights? ....YOU will want to end it as quickly as possible!!!

Focus on TARGETS ....the eyes, throats, breaking joints, USE everything around for additional weapons?protections? (KNOW the LAWS and your rights too)

NO RULES...ANYTHING GOES...ego"s ...trying to be TOUGH and stand your ground is not a good idea...learn to escape
and run away...

Learn how to use BITING, pinching, scatching,hair techniques, beside the everyday MA stuffs.

Learn how to use your arms and hands for protection of the head...body can take more punishment than HEAD.

Learn Verbal tactics....in case POLICe arrives,law suits, etc...Research this further...We have a great video on this...can't find it right now...great info's in this area..

Yes...many times Class room training...will NOT be the same as a street fight.......

Watch other street fights....most will be fast, furious, anything goes...READ some of the Books from Loren Christsenan....He has great info's on this...

...the real fighting ...many times..different from real class room training

Aloha, ...best to train for REAL STREETS

PS: The hardest thing to do...is trying to be in a more relax STATE OF MIND....adrenline kicks in...the heart pounding..the mind will be in questions....RELAXATION is the KEY to doing the right things....STUDY this more!
 
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Tez3

Tez3

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Yeah, that's pretty much been my experience with how those things typically work.......stereotypical drunken violence. Even without the narrative that this was outside a pub, it's obviously an outside the pub brawl......this is exactly the kind of fight that's fueled by alcohol.

For some, well a lot really it's the only way to spend a night out, get tanked up, either fall over in the gutter or get knocked over in fights. Spend half my life sorting these things out, they are so drunk they will fight the police too. Increasingly we are seeing women involved in fighting like this too.
The sights you see on the streets is enough to put you off drink (and people) for life.
I'm not sure if America has the same type of problems on the streets of the towns and cities as we do every week. The sheer numbers of drunk people out on the streets is overwhelming sometimes. It's not just the fighting, it's the girls staggering around half undressed, throwing up everywhere, the lads comatose in the gutter covered in their own vomit, the hysterics of drunks, the peeing and sex on the street, vandalism and of course the fights and attacks. It's horrific.
 
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Tez3

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Hello, NO two fights will ever be the same...

Most fights is fast and furious...weapons can be use anytime...anyone can jumb in...NO rules...ANYTHING GOES!

One key to success...is physcial fitness...to be able to last the lenghts of time...

Most street fights? ....YOU will want to end it as quickly as possible!!!

Focus on TARGETS ....the eyes, throats, breaking joints, USE everything around for additional weapons?protections? (KNOW the LAWS and your rights too)

NO RULES...ANYTHING GOES...ego"s ...trying to be TOUGH and stand your ground is not a good idea...learn to escape
and run away...

Learn how to use BITING, pinching, scatching,hair techniques, beside the everyday MA stuffs.

Learn how to use your arms and hands for protection of the head...body can take more punishment than HEAD.

Learn Verbal tactics....in case POLICe arrives,law suits, etc...Research this further...We have a great video on this...can't find it right now...great info's in this area..

Yes...many times Class room training...will NOT be the same as a street fight.......

Watch other street fights....most will be fast, furious, anything goes...READ some of the Books from Loren Christsenan....He has great info's on this...

...the real fighting ...many times..different from real class room training

Aloha, ...best to train for REAL STREETS

PS: The hardest thing to do...is trying to be in a more relax STATE OF MIND....adrenline kicks in...the heart pounding..the mind will be in questions....RELAXATION is the KEY to doing the right things....STUDY this more!


I'm sure that would work well if the only the people involved were sober, as it is they are all totally wrecked out of their tiny minds. The only sober ones ever on these streets are the police.
 

sgtmac_46

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For some, well a lot really it's the only way to spend a night out, get tanked up, either fall over in the gutter or get knocked over in fights. Spend half my life sorting these things out, they are so drunk they will fight the police too. Increasingly we are seeing women involved in fighting like this too.
The sights you see on the streets is enough to put you off drink (and people) for life.
I'm not sure if America has the same type of problems on the streets of the towns and cities as we do every week. The sheer numbers of drunk people out on the streets is overwhelming sometimes. It's not just the fighting, it's the girls staggering around half undressed, throwing up everywhere, the lads comatose in the gutter covered in their own vomit, the hysterics of drunks, the peeing and sex on the street, vandalism and of course the fights and attacks. It's horrific.
Depends on where you go.........
 
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sgtmac_46

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I'm sure that would work well if the only the people involved were sober, as it is they are all totally wrecked out of their tiny minds. The only sober ones ever on these streets are the police.

Exactly!

The reality is that the best defense is avoid drunks and places where drunks congregate.........and if one approaches in a belligerent manner, be prepared to preemptively repel borders.

The good thing about drunks is that they telegraph, owing to their slowed response time (though some are slower than others)........the bad thing is that drunken thugs travel in packs, so if you have to clobber one........get the hell gone before his mates decide to do a tap dance on your skull for your troubles!


<warning strong language> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/256157/drunken_street_brawl_fun/

http://explosivefightvideos.com/fightvideos/21885/fight-in-bar.html


Pretty typical stuff......








I don't know if it's the same in the UK.......but in the US we're required by law to have some screaming drunken chick in the background yelling at every fight!
 
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myusername

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Disgraceful! This doesn't change anything for me as my older brother has been a victim of such an attack. What this and other such videos do for me is to reinforce the idea that I need to constantly challenge my fears of hurting somebody with a punch. I remember scare stories when I was a kid designed to stop me fighting such as "it only takes hitting someone in the wrong place to kill them" or the classic "If they hit their head on the pavement and die in a fight you will be done for murder!"

These arseholes didn't care whether their victim suffered brain damage, lived or died! This video clip reinforces the knowledge that you can't take the risk of not fighting back. This clip tells me that if I am attacked it is no good curling up in a ball and hoping that they wont want to hit a passive man. This clip tells me that it is a fight for survival and I should defend myself with everything that I have got to make sure I don't end up in the position those poor blokes found themselves in.
 
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Tez3

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The problem is we just don't have enough police out there, we are talking thousands of drunks out on a night in just one city, in small towns it's hundreds. We have endless pubs, clubs and bars not to mention supermarkets selling alcohol. the government wanted 24 hour opening saying we would then be like Europeans but it doesn't work like that here.
Whole streets are taken up with drunks either belligerant, amorous or passed out.
We aren't particularly soft on people causing a nuisance and we aren't at all soft on people who fight us. We are just outnumbered on many nights.
Places like Nottingham, Newcastle and Cardiff for example if you are sober you stay out of the city centre. The streets are as packed as if it were the sales in the shops during the day.

And yes we have the screaming female lol. usually fat and half dressed ugh!
 

still learning

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Hello, Avoidance and Awareness....KEYS to survival

Gift of FEAR...mentions in the book over 23,000 people each year because of there EGO"S...

Drunks all trying to save face....becomes more aggressive because of the beers..!

Yes...easy to knock someone down...have them hit there head on the something/curves/concrete/etc......and DIE...or seriously injure for life...or you instead...

NIce thing about being KILLED? ...most times you will NOT remember it!

Martial ARTS...is about learning to use your skills in these areas-Avoidance and Awareness FIRST!!!

Fighting today? ...is about protecting ONESELF? meaning...beside MA skills...VERBAL skills and being smarter here? ...RUN / ESCAPEing...

How many times? facing a serious situtions? ...you find yourself willing to die when fighting back? ( da..KILLER INSTINCTS )

Do you have this? ......Aloha
 

Aikironin

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Well going back to the original post as to whether or not our training is correct or not based upon the video. Despite everyone's good advice about avoidance and awareness, which are true. Traditional Martial artists and Sport Arts, fare usuallly quite poorly in the street fight arena, due to training methodology.

Primarily all martial arts train their participants in their particular style based upon strategies for that style. In other words, Tae Kwon Do's basic strategy is that the leg is longer and more powerful than one's arm. So if we can increase flexibility and be able to strike our opponent with our leg, we can inflict more damage than using just fists. Ne?

The problem with these theory, is that you create a mental blueprint of a fighter who is then adopting the exact same strategy as you. For example a Shotokan Karateka is learning to defend themselves based upon their attacker knowing Shotokan Karate. Even more you create an image of your assailiant starting their attack from a "fighting Posture" or hands up.

This in turn starts a reactionary gap, as the unskilled fighter, who more likely than not is your assailant. As that attack will come from a position that you hadn't trained for. If you mental cue to throw out a block is when you notice the punch be launched from an on guard position. But your attacker is throwing sloppy haymakers, from low positions, which by most CCTV they do. Your reactionary time to conduct a complex motor skill is somewhat degraded.

Aside from sport mental blueprinting and using strategies designed for a similarly skilled opponent. Martial arts fail in another respect: in that most assaults are ambushes. The sucker punch, the push to the tackle, or whatever...very rarely is the situation that you and your assailant, decide to fight, tap gloves, go back to your respective gutter, and come out fighting.

I used TKD and Shotokan as examples, this is by no means disrespect to those arts, as Judo suffers from the same mentality, once you grab collar/sleeve, your opponent does the same, well what if he didn't, and just punched you in the face once you secured your collar grip? Likewise BJJ, why pass the guard, when I can just repeatedly strike the groin and stomach?

Self Defense is Self defense, Martial arts are Martial arts, never between shall they meet.

Many more unskilled people defend themselves in a day than the martial artist will face in a lifetime.
 

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I think there's some merit in the majority of your post but

Self Defense is Self defense, Martial arts are Martial arts, never between shall they meet.
So are you saying MA training is useless for self-defense?

Many more unskilled people defend themselves in a day than the martial artist will face in a lifetime.
There are a lot more untrained people in the world than trained, so yeah, the numbers would be in your favor on a statement like this, but what's your point?
 

Aikironin

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Well because there are elements of Self defense inherent in MA, training, it is not useless at all, concepts such as Situational Awareness, conflict resolution, Self Awareness, as well as Discipline and Self respect are fantastic tools that Martial Ways provide the participant. These are inherent in most arts, which is why sometimes stylistic debates tend to be superficial.

The unskilled comment refers to the idea that training in Martial Arts for self defense purposes only, is statistically not in your favor. I read alot of these forums about "self Defense" applications that read like a bad Wesley Snipes movie ( not a good one like Major League). When statistically odds are against you ever encountering the liquor store hold up scenario. And god forbid if one ever encountered that scenario it would be so surreal to a practitioner whose training never developed all the complexities of such an event, that their senses may be entirely overwhelmed to the point that their reaction is no action whatsoever.

Good observations, I should have been more clear.
 

BLACK LION

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"does it confirm your impressions of how an attack goes or does it make you think that perhaps your training isn't correct after all?"

While I cannot see the video due to my work browser restrictions...I have read about this attack previously...
Its definately one way it can go, especially dealing in the "anti-social" realm which is where I would classify this... If I am not mistaken, the resulting injuries where from his face hitting the ground but I could be wrong... It was definately avoidable and could have started off as a social thing as I am sure there was some sort of "interview".

As far as I am concerned this situation has no bearing on my training and I dont know if there was any real intent to kill present here... I have been around many altercations like this...
I have been "the victim" in this situation many times and have the scars to show for...but I also realized where I went wrong and learned how not to make those mistakes again...
In this case I wouldnt have even been there... and I wouldnt hang around a group of people that would get me into trouble and on top of that not be able to "back me up" and put in thier own work...
If it was unavoidable...for me, it would have been much uglier...
 

sgtmac_46

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Well going back to the original post as to whether or not our training is correct or not based upon the video. Despite everyone's good advice about avoidance and awareness, which are true. Traditional Martial artists and Sport Arts, fare usuallly quite poorly in the street fight arena, due to training methodology.

Primarily all martial arts train their participants in their particular style based upon strategies for that style. In other words, Tae Kwon Do's basic strategy is that the leg is longer and more powerful than one's arm. So if we can increase flexibility and be able to strike our opponent with our leg, we can inflict more damage than using just fists. Ne?

The problem with these theory, is that you create a mental blueprint of a fighter who is then adopting the exact same strategy as you. For example a Shotokan Karateka is learning to defend themselves based upon their attacker knowing Shotokan Karate. Even more you create an image of your assailiant starting their attack from a "fighting Posture" or hands up.

This in turn starts a reactionary gap, as the unskilled fighter, who more likely than not is your assailant. As that attack will come from a position that you hadn't trained for. If you mental cue to throw out a block is when you notice the punch be launched from an on guard position. But your attacker is throwing sloppy haymakers, from low positions, which by most CCTV they do. Your reactionary time to conduct a complex motor skill is somewhat degraded.

Aside from sport mental blueprinting and using strategies designed for a similarly skilled opponent. Martial arts fail in another respect: in that most assaults are ambushes. The sucker punch, the push to the tackle, or whatever...very rarely is the situation that you and your assailant, decide to fight, tap gloves, go back to your respective gutter, and come out fighting.

I used TKD and Shotokan as examples, this is by no means disrespect to those arts, as Judo suffers from the same mentality, once you grab collar/sleeve, your opponent does the same, well what if he didn't, and just punched you in the face once you secured your collar grip? Likewise BJJ, why pass the guard, when I can just repeatedly strike the groin and stomach?

Self Defense is Self defense, Martial arts are Martial arts, never between shall they meet.

Many more unskilled people defend themselves in a day than the martial artist will face in a lifetime.

Ironic that those trained in the 'sport of' boxing seem to usually fair pretty darned well in 'street encounters', untrained attackers or not....

http://fightart.blogspot.com/2007/05/turkish-rambo.html

....even when the boxer is elderly and the opponent a youth. ;)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lar-two-powerful-right-hooks-to-the-face.html

http://www.buzzhumor.com/videos/15036/72_Year_Old_Ex_Boxer_Fights_Off_Pick_Pocket

Many more people unskilled people drive on the highway than Mario Andretti.........does that mean they are better drivers than Mario Andretti?



As for the 'self-defense is self-defense, Martial arts are Martial arts, never between shall they meet'........WTF does that mean?
 

sgtmac_46

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Well because there are elements of Self defense inherent in MA, training, it is not useless at all, concepts such as Situational Awareness, conflict resolution, Self Awareness, as well as Discipline and Self respect are fantastic tools that Martial Ways provide the participant. These are inherent in most arts, which is why sometimes stylistic debates tend to be superficial.

The unskilled comment refers to the idea that training in Martial Arts for self defense purposes only, is statistically not in your favor. I read alot of these forums about "self Defense" applications that read like a bad Wesley Snipes movie ( not a good one like Major League). When statistically odds are against you ever encountering the liquor store hold up scenario. And god forbid if one ever encountered that scenario it would be so surreal to a practitioner whose training never developed all the complexities of such an event, that their senses may be entirely overwhelmed to the point that their reaction is no action whatsoever.

Good observations, I should have been more clear.
One does not need to prepare for ALL the complexities of an event to be more prepared for them than the average person..........or even than the average attacker. ;)

The assumption is that the average attacker is some all prepared entity that HAS 'developed all the complexities of such an event'.......and statistics don't bear that out.
 

Aikironin

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Ironic that those trained in the 'sport of' boxing seem to usually fair pretty darned well in 'street encounters', untrained attackers or not....

http://fightart.blogspot.com/2007/05/turkish-rambo.html

....even when the boxer is elderly and the opponent a youth. ;)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...lar-two-powerful-right-hooks-to-the-face.html

http://www.buzzhumor.com/videos/15036/72_Year_Old_Ex_Boxer_Fights_Off_Pick_Pocket

Many more people unskilled people drive on the highway than Mario Andretti.........does that mean they are better drivers than Mario Andretti?



As for the 'self-defense is self-defense, Martial arts are Martial arts, never between shall they meet'........WTF does that mean?


Case in point the Turkish Rambo...he may demonstrate some basic, albeit quite effective Boxing skills, but watch the video again. The Primary Initiating assault was Sloppy Haymakers until he could establish his distance, and his position of dominance. The initial ballistic micro fight, was a suddne flurry of wild out of control punches, seldom seen in any martial arts school (except maybe by beginners). His ability to disengage THAN access complex motor skills( his boxing) allowed him to prevail.

The second two examples, one thing in common with criminals is that they will always attack someone that they think that they can beat. Hence no one mugs Forrest Griffin. Both examples point to the fact that once resistance is encountered, the bravado of the attacker quickly dissipates. Hence the saying cooperate with a rapist, get raped. Cooperate with a mugger, get mugged. You get the point.

You Andretti point is fallacious as you failed to define skilled, in terms of driving. Mario Andretti is a formula 1 grand prix racer. everyone else on the road is a licensed driver, which in most states indicates that they attended and passed some sort of basic skills test to indicate competence on the open road. so the correlation does not match, like comparing an Olympic shooter with a SWAT Sniper, two entirely different beasts.

Last Point in Traditional Arts Self Defense was a western concept added with the westernazation of the arts. Kano, Ueshiba, and Funakoshi's ideals behind Karate, Judo and Aikido were to create better Japanese, in terms of Discipline and "sound mind sound body precepts" for example. Hence the comment. In terms of Martial arts as an ideal self defense system why would one train in an art that would take months maybe years to be "street ready" when there are plenty of Self defense course's that don't require, years of practice, and all other trappings of a traditional martial art. On sheer economics it makes no sense.
 
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Aikironin

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One does not need to prepare for ALL the complexities of an event to be more prepared for them than the average person..........or even than the average attacker. ;)

The assumption is that the average attacker is some all prepared entity that HAS 'developed all the complexities of such an event'.......and statistics don't bear that out.


I agree with you first point as ALL the complexities for each event will be unique and individual to that event.

I don't quite follow you on your last point...and what statistics are you referring too?
 
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