Violence on the Social Spectrum Vs. Anti-social violence

[GBlues]

I brought this subject up in a previos thread, and the reason being is that I have a question about self-defense scenarios. I have noticed a lot of scenarios on martialtalk, revolve around the guy giving some kind of warning, or notice of violent intent. As a human race regardless of what culture that you live in, there is a certain way that you act, within the social spectrum, in other words there are certain things that are acceptable and things that are not.

A good example of the social structure is:
1) General nice behavior, greetings, friendships etc... Things are on a good level. There is no aggression.
2) Would be like arguing, perhaps not so much aggressively but things are getting heated.
3) there is beginning to be some kind of serious aggression. There trying to get in your face, intimidation, maybe even some finger poking, and or some kind of touching.
4) Full blown fist fight. Things have degraded to the point of fighting. Here though in the social structure, it's not so much about really doing permanent damage as it is about social standing. I beat joe, my social standing goes up, and his goes down. It's more of a pissing contest to see who has the bigger set of cajones. You understand what I mean?

Now the reality is that 1-4 are still within what is acceptable in a social environment. I know it's going to cause some contention that I say this, but it's true. 3&4 are less acceptable, but still within that structure. They are violence but not the same as a-social violence. So here is a quick example of 1-4 in action in a given scenario.

Fictional Example of Violence within the social structure:
So I'm getting some coffee at the coffee machine at work, and Joe comes up and starts talking to me. " Hey Bill what's going on?" He says to me.

"Oh not much just getting some coffee, how about you, everything going alright?" I reply.

"Yeah except I need to talk to you about that job you did on my computer." he says

" Oh are you still having problems? I should have fixed everything for you."

"Well you did, but I think you charged me too much."

"Well, Joe you have to remember how much work I put into that. It's not like I spent 20 minutes and charged you 300 bucks for 20 minutes of work. I actually worked on it for about 4 hours, and 200 dollars for the amount of work, and the fact that I gave you some free upgrades, is well worth the money."

"Yeah well I don't think so pal! Donny in cubicle "B" says he could have done the same stuff for 75 bucks you ripped me off!" he yells at me.

"Whoe, hang on there Joe, stop getting all twisted off, here..."

"No! Now you listen to me..." He says as he pokes me in the chest. "Your going to refund me 125 dollars for the work that you did since you overcharged me!" he yells. Now there is a big crowd around watching and listening to us. Oh man.

"Look Joe, I did the work you were happy with it, I'm sorry, but thats the end of." I turn to leave, and as I do, I feel his right arm grab my left shoulder and he pulls me back around. As I spin back I see his fist coming straight for my face. End.

So here we see violence in the social spectrum, just kind of quick, lots of things you could do to get out of this, namely give the guy his money back. The point I'm trying to make is that al ot of people are of the assumption that this is what is going to happen. There will be some kind of a way out, or some kind of warning that Joe is about start a fight with Bill. While this is generally true, it's not always. Let's talk about a-social violence.

A-Social Violence:
The problem with a-social people to begin with, is they can go from anywhere in the social spectrum, to full on violence without warning. There is a jump straight to violence. There is no step down or degradation of the social structure, they don't operate there. They operate in a world all there own. When they do, it's generally to the detriment of the individual there doing it too. They go from 1 straight to 5 ,which isn't even on the social spectrum, without warning. I guess I should back up a little bit here and describe what I mean by a-social violence. When you talk about violence a lot of people think of mutual combat. Like two guys squared off, and one is the aggressor and one is the defender. This is not the kind of violence that I'm talking about. In mutual combat or even just an attack one has the opportunity to defuse the situation or even to defend themselves. Where as in a-social violence there is non. It's on and right now, before you can do any of those things. I'll give you an example of this using the same scenario as previously.

Fictional Example of A-Social Violence:
So I'm at the coffee maching getting my coffee, putting my sugar in, and Joe comes up and grabs a cup and starts pouring himself a cup of coffee.
" Hey Bill how's it going?" he says with a nice friendly smile.
"Good Joe. How about yourself?" I ask
" It's going good Bill thanks for asking. My kids gotta' hockey game tonight. He's been training really hard. Final game of the year you know?" he says with fatherly pride in his eyes.

" Oh well, that's great Joe. I bet your proud." I tell him.

" Yeah, he's a chip off the old block I'll tell ya." as we both laugh a little.

"Hey, Joe how's that computer I fixed working for ya?" I ask just out of curiosity.

The next thing I know is Joes scalding hot coffee gets thrown in my face, he kicks me in the testicles, punches me in the neck, and I go down like a sack of potatoes. Then he continues to assault me by taking his foot and stomping on my face repeatedly yelling the whole time, that I had "Ripped him off".End.

So how do you train and prepare for the scenario above? How do you defend yourself against something like that? No warning, no nothing, just full on assault. Can you defend yourself against an attack like that? Would your training serve you well, or would it be lacking? I ask this because I'm curious to know what you guys all think. Thanks for reading and posting, I'm really interested in your input. Thanks all.:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

My answer, and I'm sure it will generate some "yeah thats ********" responses...

For the second scenario, Learn to use and trust Sakki.

 

[myusername]

I brought this subject up in a previos thread, and the reason being is that I have a question about self-defense scenarios. I have noticed a lot of scenarios on martialtalk, revolve around the guy giving some kind of warning, or notice of violent intent. As a human race regardless of what culture that you live in, there is a certain way that you act, within the social spectrum, in other words there are certain things that are acceptable and things that are not.

A good example of the social structure is:
1) General nice behavior, greetings, friendships etc... Things are on a good level. There is no aggression.
2) Would be like arguing, perhaps not so much aggressively but things are getting heated.
3) there is beginning to be some kind of serious aggression. There trying to get in your face, intimidation, maybe even some finger poking, and or some kind of touching.
4) Full blown fist fight. Things have degraded to the point of fighting. Here though in the social structure, it's not so much about really doing permanent damage as it is about social standing. I beat joe, my social standing goes up, and his goes down. It's more of a pissing contest to see who has the bigger set of cajones. You understand what I mean?

Now the reality is that 1-4 are still within what is acceptable in a social environment. I know it's going to cause some contention that I say this, but it's true. 3&4 are less acceptable, but still within that structure. They are violence but not the same as a-social violence. So here is a quick example of 1-4 in action in a given scenario.

Fictional Example of Violence within the social structure:
So I'm getting some coffee at the coffee machine at work, and Joe comes up and starts talking to me. " Hey Bill what's going on?" He says to me.

"Oh not much just getting some coffee, how about you, everything going alright?" I reply.

"Yeah except I need to talk to you about that job you did on my computer." he says

" Oh are you still having problems? I should have fixed everything for you."

"Well you did, but I think you charged me too much."

"Well, Joe you have to remember how much work I put into that. It's not like I spent 20 minutes and charged you 300 bucks for 20 minutes of work. I actually worked on it for about 4 hours, and 200 dollars for the amount of work, and the fact that I gave you some free upgrades, is well worth the money."

"Yeah well I don't think so pal! Donny in cubicle "B" says he could have done the same stuff for 75 bucks you ripped me off!" he yells at me.

"Whoe, hang on there Joe, stop getting all twisted off, here..."

"No! Now you listen to me..." He says as he pokes me in the chest. "Your going to refund me 125 dollars for the work that you did since you overcharged me!" he yells. Now there is a big crowd around watching and listening to us. Oh man.

"Look Joe, I did the work you were happy with it, I'm sorry, but thats the end of." I turn to leave, and as I do, I feel his right arm grab my left shoulder and he pulls me back around. As I spin back I see his fist coming straight for my face. End.

So here we see violence in the social spectrum, just kind of quick, lots of things you could do to get out of this, namely give the guy his money back. The point I'm trying to make is that al ot of people are of the assumption that this is what is going to happen. There will be some kind of a way out, or some kind of warning that Joe is about start a fight with Bill. While this is generally true, it's not always. Let's talk about a-social violence.

A-Social Violence:
The problem with a-social people to begin with, is they can go from anywhere in the social spectrum, to full on violence without warning. There is a jump straight to violence. There is no step down or degradation of the social structure, they don't operate there. They operate in a world all there own. When they do, it's generally to the detriment of the individual there doing it too. They go from 1 straight to 5 ,which isn't even on the social spectrum, without warning. I guess I should back up a little bit here and describe what I mean by a-social violence. When you talk about violence a lot of people think of mutual combat. Like two guys squared off, and one is the aggressor and one is the defender. This is not the kind of violence that I'm talking about. In mutual combat or even just an attack one has the opportunity to defuse the situation or even to defend themselves. Where as in a-social violence there is non. It's on and right now, before you can do any of those things. I'll give you an example of this using the same scenario as previously.

Fictional Example of A-Social Violence:
So I'm at the coffee maching getting my coffee, putting my sugar in, and Joe comes up and grabs a cup and starts pouring himself a cup of coffee.
" Hey Bill how's it going?" he says with a nice friendly smile.
"Good Joe. How about yourself?" I ask
" It's going good Bill thanks for asking. My kids gotta' hockey game tonight. He's been training really hard. Final game of the year you know?" he says with fatherly pride in his eyes.

" Oh well, that's great Joe. I bet your proud." I tell him.

" Yeah, he's a chip off the old block I'll tell ya." as we both laugh a little.

"Hey, Joe how's that computer I fixed working for ya?" I ask just out of curiosity.

The next thing I know is Joes scalding hot coffee gets thrown in my face, he kicks me in the testicles, punches me in the neck, and I go down like a sack of potatoes. Then he continues to assault me by taking his foot and stomping on my face repeatedly yelling the whole time, that I had "Ripped him off".End.

So how do you train and prepare for the scenario above? How do you defend yourself against something like that? No warning, no nothing, just full on assault. Can you defend yourself against an attack like that? Would your training serve you well, or would it be lacking? I ask this because I'm curious to know what you guys all think. Thanks for reading and posting, I'm really interested in your input. Thanks all.:asian:

I would ensure that I charged a fair price for fixing computers. Problem solved.

 

[myusername]

So how do you train and prepare for the scenario above? How do you defend yourself against something like that? No warning, no nothing, just full on assault. Can you defend yourself against an attack like that? Would your training serve you well, or would it be lacking? I ask this because I'm curious to know what you guys all think. Thanks for reading and posting, I'm really interested in your input. Thanks all.:asian:

Now for a more serious answer! In some ways your training can never prepare you for every possible scenario. However, what I feel my training gives me is the awareness of how violent life and other human beings can be. Hopefully a martial artist is more desensitized to fighting/violence than the average Joe so would not be quite so stunned as the person who has never trained. In addition, the reason we constantly drill techniques and combinations is to develop muscle memory. I would hope that after a while training in the martial arts ones reactions to a surprise attack would be instinctive. Obviously, there are no guarantees and martial arts does not make a person invincible! But I think it gives a person more of a chance in the scenario you describe.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure you mean asocial as I can't see a connection with violence. Do you mean people with antisocial disorder personality?

Not really sure what you're getting at I'm afraid.

 

[myusername]

I'm not sure you mean asocial as I can't see a connection with violence. Do you mean people with antisocial disorder personality?

Not really sure what you're getting at I'm afraid.

I had the same confusion initially as I consider all violence to be anti-social! I may be wrong but looking at the scenario's presented (one being telegraphed and the other being with out warning) I considered the question to be how does your training prepare you for a completely unexpected and surprise attack.

 

[Tez3]

I had the same confusion initially as I consider all violence to be anti-social! I may be wrong but looking at the scenario's presented (one being telegraphed and the other being with out warning) I considered the question to be how does your training prepare you for a completely unexpected and surprise attack.

Ah I see! cheers! It would have been easier to ask that though wouldn't it lol?
At work I'm always aware that violence may break out at any minute for a number of reasons. I work in an enviroment where violence is considered basically the answer to most things (actually it is a lot of the time) and also my very presence can provoke violence! Not mine as in personally but the fact my colleagues and I want to speak to, question or check the identity of people can cause violence. There is also the culture that violence is acceptable and a punch is an acceptable punishment for being late on parade or having dirty boots. Being punched because someone is unhappy with something you've done or said is not unusual and no one thinks much of it.

 

[morph4me]

Nothing can train you for an unexpected, violent attack from an unknown assailant, which if I understand it is what you're referring to as asocial violence. You walk into a store in the middle of a robbery and someone turns around and shoots you, you get hit, hopefully you survive. Martail arts training doesn't make us super men or women, we still bleed, we still get taken by surprise etc.
What good martial arts training should provide, is awareness, you walk into a situation and something doesn't feel right, and your alarm bells go off and you take action to remove yourself from the situation. What good martial arts training should provide is the knowledge that, violence happens, and it can happen to you, just as you check both ways before you cross the street, because you've always been taught that you can get hit by a car if you don't.

The short answer is that if violence happens, it doesn't matter if it's "social" "antisocial" or "asocial" violence, if you aren't aware there's nothing you can do, and if you are aware, there still may be nothing you can do about it. You get the tools and it's up to each individual to use them, or not.

 

[myusername]

Ah I see! cheers! It would have been easier to ask that though wouldn't it lol?
At work I'm always aware that violence may break out at any minute for a number of reasons. I work in an enviroment where violence is considered basically the answer to most things (actually it is a lot of the time) and also my very presence can provoke violence! Not mine as in personally but the fact my colleagues and I want to speak to, question or check the identity of people can cause violence. There is also the culture that violence is acceptable and a punch is an acceptable punishment for being late on parade or having dirty boots. Being punched because someone is unhappy with something you've done or said is not unusual and no one thinks much of it.

Sounds like a dreadful job! It is funny what you can get used to though! I remember when I briefly worked in a forensic mental health hospital, after a little while my immediate thought if a violence broke out would be "bugger! More paperwork!" rather than any feelings of fear!

 

[redantstyle]

if you run into someone who is trying to set you up for a surprise attack, you just better have faster reflexes is all.

you might as well ask what to do if someone behind in a crowd decides to lay into you for 'no reason'.

that being said, what comes to mind is cold start training, or practicing self defense from the 'void' stance, as opposed responding from a guard.

if you are out of dojo, and someone tries an ambush like you describe, you have to depend on your perceptions, processing speed (template recognition), and reflex or motor speed.

if you train regularly, and have some experience, you should be able to easily stop someone from moving on you.

so then, to increase your chances of survival:

1) use DTA philosophy... 'dont trust anybody'
2) employ periphereal vision at all times, and scan the horizon regularly.
3) sit with your back to the wall, with all entrances and exits in view.
4) identify all potential improvised weaponry when you enter a room.
5) maintain a defensive distance with everyone. dont let them in your personal space
6) keep your knees bent
7) practice using your suitcoat like batman, to block projecticles.
8) splash coffee in your face till you get used to it.

sarcasm aside, you asked a hypothetical question, which really stacks the odds against you.

the only answer is to hone your perceptions and decrease your response time.

and of course, always expect the unexpected.

regards.

 

[Tez3]

Sounds like a dreadful job! It is funny what you can get used to though! I remember when I briefly worked in a forensic mental health hospital, after a little while my immediate thought if a violence broke out would be "bugger! More paperwork!" rather than any feelings of fear!

It's quite good fun really lol! soldiers are trained and paid to be violent, civvies though just expect them to be able to turn it on and off as needed but it doesn't work that way. It's a rough and ready sort of world but it's honest if nothing else. You always know where you stand!

 

[Cryozombie]

What good martial arts training should provide, is awareness, you walk into a situation and something doesn't feel right, and your alarm bells go off and you take action to remove yourself from the situation.

Thats what I said: Sakki.

 

[morph4me]

Thats what I said: Sakki.

Ohhh, I thought you were talking about rice wine :

 

[Sukerkin]

Me too :lol:. Even worse, I thought Cryo spelt it wrongly .

 

[teekin]

The next thing I know is Joes scalding hot coffee gets thrown in my face, he kicks me in the testicles, punches me in the neck, and I go down like a sack of potatoes. Then he continues to assault me by taking his foot and stomping on my face repeatedly yelling the whole time, that I had "Ripped him off".End.

So how do you train and prepare for the scenario above? How do you defend yourself against something like that? No warning, no nothing, just full on assault. Can you defend yourself against an attack like that? Would your training serve you well, or would it be lacking? I ask this because I'm curious to know what you guys all think. Thanks for reading and posting, I'm really interested in your input. Thanks all.:asian:[/quote]

I would be happy to hear from the other people on the board who have the joy of working with pych patients but there are always signs of building tension that lead to an assault. 0-100 takes time and requires certain physiological and phychological changes to take place. The clues that these changes are taking place may be very subtle but they are there. There is still an adrenalin dump as his body prepares for battle , his posture will change, he will prepare to attack. I know there are a whack of studies and articles written on just this. Once again, 5,000,000 years of evolutionary hardwiring can not be rewritten by a few hundred years of communal living. ( Unless the hardwiring is seriously FUBAR, then all bets are off.)
lori

 

[GBlues]

The next thing I know is Joes scalding hot coffee gets thrown in my face, he kicks me in the testicles, punches me in the neck, and I go down like a sack of potatoes. Then he continues to assault me by taking his foot and stomping on my face repeatedly yelling the whole time, that I had "Ripped him off".End.

So how do you train and prepare for the scenario above? How do you defend yourself against something like that? No warning, no nothing, just full on assault. Can you defend yourself against an attack like that? Would your training serve you well, or would it be lacking? I ask this because I'm curious to know what you guys all think. Thanks for reading and posting, I'm really interested in your input. Thanks all.:asian:

I would be happy to hear from the other people on the board who have the joy of working with pych patients but there are always signs of building tension that lead to an assault. 0-100 takes time and requires certain physiological and phychological changes to take place. The clues that these changes are taking place may be very subtle but they are there. There is still an adrenalin dump as his body prepares for battle , his posture will change, he will prepare to attack. I know there are a whack of studies and articles written on just this. Once again, 5,000,000 years of evolutionary hardwiring can not be rewritten by a few hundred years of communal living. ( Unless the hardwiring is seriously FUBAR, then all bets are off.)
lori[/quote]

I personally would have to disagree with you about they have to build up to it. I find that personally, in my experience, it doesn't take anytime at all for them to go from 0-100 in a split second. When an a-social individual attacks it's like a shark. By the time that you have decided to defend yourself it's too late. Action is always faster than reaction. In my opinion the only action that you can take against an aggressive surprise attack is offensive. You have to strike first. I think training to strike first, when you see an attack, coming from a surprise situation, will work better for you than trying block, or parry and then strike. You've been hit, before you can block. You've got to just strike, and go for a vital, or your getting stomped. Your going to get hit, but maybe, just maybe you can cause more damage to your opponent than he does to you, and get a good stun shot you can follow up with, and finish it. My opinion, but I've been on the recieving end of that more than once, and after thinking about it, that's the conclusion that I've come too. :asian:

 

[Tez3]

I would be happy to hear from the other people on the board who have the joy of working with pych patients but there are always signs of building tension that lead to an assault. 0-100 takes time and requires certain physiological and phychological changes to take place. The clues that these changes are taking place may be very subtle but they are there. There is still an adrenalin dump as his body prepares for battle , his posture will change, he will prepare to attack. I know there are a whack of studies and articles written on just this. Once again, 5,000,000 years of evolutionary hardwiring can not be rewritten by a few hundred years of communal living. ( Unless the hardwiring is seriously FUBAR, then all bets are off.)
lori

I personally would have to disagree with you about they have to build up to it. I find that personally, in my experience, it doesn't take anytime at all for them to go from 0-100 in a split second. When an a-social individual attacks it's like a shark. By the time that you have decided to defend yourself it's too late. Action is always faster than reaction. In my opinion the only action that you can take against an aggressive surprise attack is offensive. You have to strike first. I think training to strike first, when you see an attack, coming from a surprise situation, will work better for you than trying block, or parry and then strike. You've been hit, before you can block. You've got to just strike, and go for a vital, or your getting stomped. Your going to get hit, but maybe, just maybe you can cause more damage to your opponent than he does to you, and get a good stun shot you can follow up with, and finish it. My opinion, but I've been on the recieving end of that more than once, and after thinking about it, that's the conclusion that I've come too. :asian:[/quote]


I'm curious to know why you've been singled out for these attacks! Can you explain what you mean by an 'asocial' person please, I'm not sure if you mean someone who is ammoral/a pyschopath or just mentally ill?
I have a degree in psychology and to me an asocial person means a loner, someone not at ease with society not necessarily a person who attacks without warning. I looked up a dictionary to find a laymans definition and found much the same meaning.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/asocial

I'm interested in the type of person that you think makes 'unprovoked' attacks. I agree with Grendel though though that no attack is unsignalled, we may have difficulty in reading the signal though if we don't know what to look for. I don't believe any attack is 'unprovoked' either as ( I'm sure someone else has posted this too in another thread, I'll try to find it) as in the mind of an attacker there is always a reason for the attack however weird or strange it may be to us. The person attacked doesn't have to do anything to provoke it but in the mind of the attacker there may be lots of reasons.

 

[qwksilver61]

Just for Morph....no it does not,but it pays to be intently aware of your surroundings.I grew up primarily in St Louis city,things were pretty rough most of the time,you could be having a good time at a party and boom down you go.I for one believe that the more you study people,the more you are able to pick up on those subtle cues (verbal & visual).Being totally relaxed and projecting an aura of confidence helps.Oh,and don't forget the gut check,it has worked for me on more than one occasion.
"The book of five rings" speaks of intent,most of you serious martial artists know all or something about this un-seen thing.Lets hear from you....

 

[morph4me]

Just for Morph....no it does not,but it pays to be intently aware of your surroundings.I grew up primarily in St Louis city,things were pretty rough most of the time,you could be having a good time at a party and boom down you go.I for one believe that the more you study people,the more you are able to pick up on those subtle cues (verbal & visual).Being totally relaxed and projecting an aura of confidence helps.Oh,and don't forget the gut check,it has worked for me on more than one occasion.
"The book of five rings" speaks of intent,most of you serious martial artists know all or something about this un-seen thing.Lets hear from you....

Those experiences where you are having a good time at a party and down you go are the ones that give you the experience to pick up the signs the next time. Just because someone can't read the signs doesn't mean they aren't there, body language, gut check, things that you may not even be able to verbalize, all let you know somethings going to go down. If you don't pay attention or you don't know what to pay attention to or what to do about it when you see it, it seems that that the attack comes out of nowhere.

 

[jks9199]

I've been busy, or I'd have responded here earlier.

I think what the original poster is discussing are two different types of violence. Rory Miller, in Meditations on Violence, uses the term "Monkey Dance" to describe one type of violent encounter, and I think it's a really good term. It's what the OP here seems to be describing as "social violence." A Monkey Dance is about showing status, rather than really doing harm. That doesn't mean you won't get hurt -- but it's not violence for the sake of violence, if that makes sense. Monkey Dances are typically preceded by a variety of behaviors and signals that it's coming. All of these are opportunities to back down and recognize the other person's status. A Monkey Dance requires at least two participants who both feel that they've got something to gain by playing. You ever see a big dog just look at some yappy thing that's barking and trying to intimidate the big dog, with a "yeah, right" attitude? Or seen someone trying to get someone to respond who just doesn't see that person as any threat at all? Who's going to get worked up at a 5 year old kid threatening to beat 'em up?

Real violent attacks are something different. The purpose isn't to simply tweak status -- it's to obtain a goal. That goal might be money, it might be rape, or it might be murder, but it's NOT about position. (Some gang violence is perpetrated against an innocent party to improve status within the gang -- but it's not a Monkey Dance, and won't be committed in the same way. The attack with be a violent attack.) It's going to be fast, surprising, forceful, and vicously powerful. There's not going to be much build up or warning; often, the first clue it's happening is when the fist hits or the knife goes in. The watchwords of certain tactical ops are Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Execution. They apply equally to attacks by criminals. This is the sort of thing that the OP here called "antisocial violence."

I think the terms social and antisocial violence aren't bad -- but they're confusing because of the conventional uses of the terms, and because of popular misunderstandings. But semantics don't help you deal with them.

The best preparation for a Monkey Dance is confidence. It takes two (or more) for that particular tango. If you're secure in your status, like that big dog, you won't have a problem. Or the idiot that tries to escalate the Monkey Dance will discover that you can more than handle him.

How do you prepare for the real violent attack? Awareness, prevention, and realism in your training. Transcend the rote repetition, and move to instinctive, unthinking response so that, when you are the victim of this sort of attack, you have tools available. It's not easy, it's very scary... but it can be done.