Fighting and Self Defence are two different things.

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Hanzou

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More effective at what? How will fighting Mayweather make me better at TKD? Especially if I'm fighting Mayweather using boxing rules?

I disagree

Don't use boxing rules, just fight using both skill sets. Fighting someone of that caliber will reveal the weaknesses in your fighting ability.
 

ballen0351

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Don't use boxing rules, just fight using both skill sets. Fighting someone of that caliber will reveal the weaknesses in your fighting ability.
fighting someone of that caliber won't reveal anything he's the best in the world of course he's going to beat me if he didn't then I'd be making a 100 million a fight and not driving a police car around all night.
And even so it wouldn't make me any better at my chosen style. If I want to get better at Goju I'll go train with Goju guys that are better then me.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Additions vs subtractions.

We go into concepts like pure SD training and we hit a wall. For self defence we essentially want additions not subtractions. So we benifit by being a boxer. The boxer benifits by being a wrestler as well. Then he benifits by understanding weapons,deescalation route planning home hardening and so on.

The idea of pure self defence dosent really work like this. It subtracts. You don't need to become a boxer because the rules fight. Instead you become some sort of illegal moves guy. Wrestling becomes anti grapple. You create preconceptions to accomodate a limited skill set rather than admit you have a limited skill set.

Self defence is as much skills as you can pack in. It has to be because the task is so complex. And that is tough because it means you are always under prepared.

I think we're on the same page on this. When I say "pure SD training", I'm talking about the concept not the techniques. When I practice Judo, I don't bother learning competition rules (so I do become that "illegal moves guy" by default), but focus on the techniques and movements that will be most useful for SD. Same with BJJ, boxing, or anything else that is often/normally trained for competition.

Of course, there are those who say the best test is having highly skilled practitioners trying to take you out to win a title (competition). I disagree, but there are valid points to their argument, and (as I've said before) any good training is better than no good training.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Don't use boxing rules, just fight using both skill sets. Fighting someone of that caliber will reveal the weaknesses in your fighting ability.

But would it be a useful revelation? He trains like a fiend and is in prime physical condition. Guys like that are trained to take insane amounts of punishment, which means my most useful weapons are things like taking out knees. His hand speed might make kicks my only useful weapons until I land one. He'd be like fighting someone on PCP who also has superb emotional control. Scary.

I guess I see that sort of thing like testing my movement against a speeding car. Yes, it will show weaknesses, but I know the weaknesses at that level, and simply don't care to spend that much of my life to fix them. Mayweather won't be attacking me on the street, so he's not the test I need (or want).

Our best testing usually comes from someone significantly (but not outrageously) better equipped.
 

Gerry Seymour

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You misunderstood my comment, which wasn't about Boxers being the final litmus test. It was more about how a trained fighter can just use only their jab and footwork to demonstrate and destroy most Self Defense people, who never spar hard, let alone fought before. It's just, USUALLY, really easy to light up people who only train against this guy:


s-l1000.jpg

Hey, that guy kicked my *** once!
 

Gerry Seymour

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The best way to find out if what hocus pocus that you're training, works, is to spar it out. Just buy a groupon or a block of classes at some Krav Maga school, Tactical Camou Fighter, Inc. or whatever, and spar them. A decent amateur Boxer can usually just use ONLY their jab and footwork to destroy most of them. If you can't get pass a Boxer's jab, how will you ever do your death strikes on them w/o getting KTFO? There's a good reason why it's usually only women, old folks, and weaker dudes, that usually trains SD only. The good news is, there are some good looking women there.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last bit. The style I train in and teach is a SD-oriented TMA, and most of the students are 20-40 year old guys, by a huge margin.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Why IMAGINE your art at full strength when you can just not water it down?

Some techniques cannot safely be done full force. This includes some locks (which on the street are direct breaks), throws (when not projections), and some strikes (unless you want to injure your training partner).
 

Gerry Seymour

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Additions vs subtractions.

::snip::

The idea of pure self defence dosent really work like this. It subtracts. You don't need to become a boxer because the rules fight. Instead you become some sort of illegal moves guy. Wrestling becomes anti grapple. You create preconceptions to accomodate a limited skill set rather than admit you have a limited skill set.

Self defence is as much skills as you can pack in. It has to be because the task is so complex. And that is tough because it means you are always under prepared.

Actually, you're making a hell of an assumption. We discuss limitations of skill set all the time. Yes, we set up preconceived scenarios, because there are things a skilled attacker (fighter) will never do in a controlled scenario (because they create too many openings), but which are dangerous attacks we must work against. An MMA guy isn't going to do an uncontrolled flying tackle from my side, but I want to know how to deal with that, so we create that.

We also play percentages. We KNOW (as I hope everyone else does) that there are limitations. Most of us don't train full-time. Even at my heaviest training (around 2002), I only trained about 15 hours a week, and I don't put that much time in now. I want to focus on what helps me in the most possible and probable situations.

No, we don't just subtract. We start from a few basic skills (grip escapes, blocks, strikes, easy locks), and ADD to those over time. Ever time I attend a seminar, work out with another martial artist, or see something interesting in a video, something is added to my inventory (and sometimes to my training and my classes).

Pure SD training is about preparing for attacks as best we can with the time at hand. The biggest difference between that and preparing for competition is which attacks are highest percentage.
 

Gerry Seymour

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But someone who does train harder will become better than someone who dosent.

One correction: "someone who does train harder will become better AT THAT THING than someone who doesn't"

I have seen some folks who train REALLY hard for competition (and are good at it) who are less prepared to defend themselves than a dedicated casual student. Why? One was training for unrealistic types of competition (and nothing else - a specialist), while the other was preparing for many different scenarios and types of attacks.

This concept is why Gracie stunned the UFC world. He probably wasn't training harder - just preparing for a different fight than they were.
 

RTKDCMB

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Both as a general rule.But In this instance those who don't compete.

You are confusing excuses for reasons.

I mean given a choice you would choose a self defence school that also has ring success.
Given a choice I would pick, and have picked, a self defense school that focuses on self defense.
A choice between two doctors would not come down to which one is better at golf.
 
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RTKDCMB

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Really? So if it is a choice between boxing with maywhether or training full tkd at your school. You think your school will make the student more effective due to their art not being watered down.

Yep.

Watering down your art gives you the opportunity to train with top tier artists from other styles. This in my opinion increases your effectiveness.

Maybe a homeopathic martial art will be more effective when it is watered down :) but in real life watering down a martial art decreases its effectiveness.
 

RTKDCMB

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Some techniques cannot safely be done full force. This includes some locks (which on the street are direct breaks), throws (when not projections), and some strikes (unless you want to injure your training partner).
There are ways to do strikes at full force safely. It requires control.
 

FriedRice

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"Anyone" ain't gonna happen. But we all seem to gravitate towards those better than us, instructors and sparring partners alike. Heck, we all need a good *** whoopin' from time to time, no?

This is the main fallacy of most Self Defense only people though, they don't really test out their skills. Most of their training are controlled, choreographed, pretend sparring with touch to very light contact. Nobody is throwing full powered punches to KO anyone. Yet they try to say that full contact combat sports such as MMA is not realistic? And they wear like gigantic, suit of armor made out of padding with a giant helmet....hell, it's like a full dog-bite suit, because they're scared of pain.

A good way to test out your skills against some untrained guy off the street is to just let them swing all they want, like this:

It's pretty easy vs. untrained people, but not if you don't spar hard for full KO's on a somewhat, regular basis.
 
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