A question and a response that puzzled me

[StudentCarl]

It all sounds like a lot of ego to me, defensive and insecure. We're all students. I've been around long enough to believe that rank is often more of a general measure of experience and perseverence than a strict measure of skill. I do like to know someone's rank, but I also like to know their age. I'm a completely different red belt at 47 than I was at 17. The fact that I'm a red belt means there are some things you black belts know that I don't. That doesn't make me less of an athlete, student, or person--just less knowledgeable and less experienced. I'm pleased to be outranked by so many--it means I have many teachers handy (something else good about this forum).

 

[Earl Weiss]

You never nknow what a reaction might be. Twin Fist ripped me up down and sideways and I think he's still pissed at me because I suggested that he ask his instructor(s) a question.

BTW Twin Fist, I respect your point of view. I just don't agree with it. Believe it or not folks, on internet boards and in life people can respectfuly agree to disagree.

Anyway, I think when it comes to questioning rank / experience on the boards it has a multi pronged result.
First, someone's thoughts and ideas should be evaluated irrespective of their rank and experience.
Secondly, simply questioning rank / experience without independant evaluation of the idea is easily seen as a knock.
Third, even if someone tells you their rank and experience, what have you really leanred?
Was rank handed out like candy? A thrid dan ten year old?
Do they have 20 years of experience, or the same experience for 20 years?

 

[terryl965]

All I am saying is a question regarding rank should not be the end to all. If someone get insulted by a simple question what happens when someone ask that same person about a certain tech. they are showing? Experience is better then rank and I only ask because I really want to know you I am dealing with, everybody here knows those instructor that throw out I am one of the highest American rank in TKD in the United States. Well sine the turn of this century we have had over 400 people get to 7 or higher with the KKW and they are American so to say I am only one of a few please. Just in my area of DFW I know of 36 people with that rank or higher and that is not the entire state. My asking is not to degrade anybody but to try and figure out who and what they might or should know.

 

[miguksaram]

Terry,

All you needed to do when the guy got insulted was hand him a crow bar with instructions on how he could pry the stick out of his @$$. :whip1:

Unfortunately many people equate experience with rank. Some people may not have a lot of self confidence about themselves will be offended if you ask them what their rank is, thinking they will not be taken seriously if they have a lower rank.

Glenn is correct about noonchi. When I first met Pres. Lee of the USTC, I sat with him and several high ranking GM's. We had a great conversation about TKD and life. During that whole time only one of them asked me about my rank in a private conversation. All the others, including Pres. Lee, never had the topic brought up.

My favorite part was my wife drinking and becoming friends with GM Mayes, before I even knew who GM Mayes was. ha.ha.ha.

So don't take it too personally Terry. Just smile.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you are going to have rank, be expected to be asked about it. If you are going to make statements on an internet forum, you can expect to be asked about your rank in the art at some point.

On the web, some people maintain their anonymity for personal protection. That is perfectly reasonable. "I'll tell you via PM" is a perfectly reasonable response.

Some, however, simply do so because it shields them from having to fess up about who they are and what their actual level of training it. They like to make outlandish statements and they know that if their actual rank and identity were known, they would not be given any consideration.

Then there are those that are trolling for some reason and who don't want you to know who they are because they have an ulterior motivation.

Then you have some people that get upset just to get upset.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, I actually asked a couple of instructors why they gave stripes on the belts of their students. They said that it was a marketing thing, that students need to feel that they are progressing and seeing stripes on their belt helps them with that.

Pretty much.

Personally, I prefer a stripless belt and a fairly unadorned dobok. Association patch, American and Korean flags, and maybe a school logo on the back are as far as is necessary.

My taekwondo dobok has just the association patch to the left of the collar, a Korean flag on the left arm and an American flag on the right. My hapkido dobok is unadorned.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Pretty much.

Personally, I prefer a stripless belt and a fairly unadorned dobok. Association patch, American and Korean flags, and maybe a school logo on the back are as far as is necessary.

My taekwondo dobok has just the association patch to the left of the collar, a Korean flag on the left arm and an American flag on the right. My hapkido dobok is unadorned.

Daniel

My TKD uniform has a Korean flag on one arm, American flag on the other arm and a Jidokwan patch on the front. My karate uniform as our organization patch and school patch on one arm. We do have our names embroided on the front of the uniform, so the parents know who we are.

My belt is stripeless.

 

[jks9199]

You never nknow what a reaction might be. Twin Fist ripped me up down and sideways and I think he's still pissed at me because I suggested that he ask his instructor(s) a question.

BTW Twin Fist, I respect your point of view. I just don't agree with it. Believe it or not folks, on internet boards and in life people can respectfuly agree to disagree.

Anyway, I think when it comes to questioning rank / experience on the boards it has a multi pronged result.
First, someone's thoughts and ideas should be evaluated irrespective of their rank and experience.
Secondly, simply questioning rank / experience without independant evaluation of the idea is easily seen as a knock.
Third, even if someone tells you their rank and experience, what have you really leanred?
Was rank handed out like candy? A thrid dan ten year old?
Do they have 20 years of experience, or the same experience for 20 years?

That's a different thing entirely, though...

Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?

 

[puunui]

Well sine the turn of this century we have had over 400 people get to 7 or higher with the KKW and they are American so to say I am only one of a few please. Just in my area of DFW I know of 36 people with that rank or higher and that is not the entire state.

Where did you get your information from? Because according to the Kukkiwon, as of October 1997, there were 55 7th Dan, 21 8th Dan and 15 9th Dan certified by the Kukkiwon in the United States. I have the names of all of them too, so if you wish to post a list, I can tell you what their Kukkiwon rank is as of October 1997, if they were Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher at that time.

 

[granfire]

That's a different thing entirely, though...

Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?

Depends on the question to be asked?
I mean, if you trust the teacher enough to pay him money for his expertise, one should assume that he/she can answer most or all questions you have as well.

It would be the logical 1st place I'd look for answers, unless I just got home from training or was out of town....


Personally I am glad I have an embroidered belt, otherwise I'd forget the rank I am supposed to have....
I also don't talk about my rank much: I got my BB in a shade under 2 years. Then I got to talking to a lady who had trained for over 7 years in the art and was preparing for grading - with a port in her chest, in the middle of chemo treatment for (or rather against) breast cancer. Certainly she assured me I earned mine, but hers is the bigger achievement!

But seriously, couricullum is tiered according to rank, and lineage does tend to tell you a lot about the school's general - hmmm - work ethic, for lack of better words. And it does show, even if all the schools have the same manual and DVDs to learn from, the head instructor puts his/her stamp on the school!

 

[puunui]

If someone get insulted by a simple question what happens when someone ask that same person about a certain tech. they are showing?

Are you sure they were insulted when you asked about their rank, or perhaps could it have been that you were insulted because they did not answer your question to your satisfaction?

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's a different thing entirely, though...

Telling someone of some experience "go ask your teacher about..." can certainly come across as more than a little patronizing, no?

That would depend on the exchange. This followed an expression of frustration at the way something was laid out which was unique to a certain publication so it was suggested that an inquiry be made of the instructor about this publication (which the instructor did not write but was apparently following) as to the instructors perception of it being a conscious deviation or perhaps a typographical or editing error.

 

[Miles]

Slight twist to the conversation, but I don't recall ever being asked my rank by any current or prospective student (we don't wear stripes on our belts).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Slight twist to the conversation, but I don't recall ever being asked my rank by any current or prospective student (we don't wear stripes on our belts).

As a general rule, I don't think that the students care.

Daniel

 

[IcemanSK]

As a general rule, I don't think that the students care.

Daniel

In general, most students really don't know much about rank, or even what the stripes are for, until we tell them. In my experience.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In general, most students really don't know much about rank, or even what the stripes are for, until we tell them. In my experience.

Too bad we have to go and ruin it. We'd save ourselves a ton of headache by simply keeping it at student/teacher.

Daniel

 

[Touch Of Death]

Everybody on this board probaly knows me one way or another, that being said I have never really tried to insult or make anybody feel uncomfitable. That all changed today when I just ask a simple question what is your rank and where do you train, I was told that was inapprobiate to ask someone. I guess I am getting old when it is wrong to ask that question, has this ever happen to you at anytime? I guess I do not see this as a secret society when rank is involved.

Maybe people take issue with being identified by their rank. I know I feel embarrassed when someone announces to a crowed that I'm a blackbelt; because, that now just became part of my identity to those people and their given prejudices on the subject. There is a preference for just giving your name and enjoying the respect that should come with that alone, sometimes. And, if someone announces that they are only a colored belt and not a blackbelt, is their opinion less valid? Why handicap a perfectly good opinion?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

My TKD uniform has a Korean flag on one arm, American flag on the other arm and a Jidokwan patch on the front. My karate uniform as our organization patch and school patch on one arm. We do have our names embroided on the front of the uniform, so the parents know who we are.

My belt is stripeless.

... or at least what you are wearing LOL
Sean

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And, if someone announces that they are only a colored belt and not a blackbelt, is their opinion less valid? Why handicap a perfectly good opinion?

I think that it depends upon the context of what they are saying. A colored belt's opinion of material past first dan is conjecture, speculation, and hearsay; they are not in a position to know the answers.

Sometimes, knowing the other person's rank is a quick way to get some idea as to where the other person may be coming from without asking a ton of other questions. If I know that you are seventeen and third dan, that tells me that your perspective is going to be very different than that of a twenty five year old of the same rank. Doesn't make his or her opinion less valid, but it does allow me to answer them knowing that they will be looking at things from a very different angle than I might be.

Daniel

 

[Archtkd]

Maybe people take issue with being identified by their rank. I know I feel embarrassed when someone announces to a crowed that I'm a blackbelt; because, that now just became part of my identity to those people and their given prejudices on the subject. There is a preference for just giving your name and enjoying the respect that should come with that alone, sometimes. quote.]

I feel the same way, but it depends on the crowd. If the announcement is made in a dojang or a meeting of martial artists that's one thing, but if it's made to the general public it can feel very uncomfortable. I think such announcements to the general public not only embarrass but they may cause undue attention and tension. Not the same thing, but how would one who carries concealed feel if a friend introduced them loudly as "This is marksman George who carries a .45?"