When you believe

[terryl965]

What happens when you believe in your instructor teaching but not in the promotion side of training. In another thread somebody is questioning there own school but believe in the instructor.

Now for me I was always brought up not to question or ask but do what is being ask of you, so this is new to me. If I did not have faith in the promotion system, I believe I could not be trained by that person. The simple reason to me is obvious I do not have faith in what he is doing, so I would leave and find another school or just accept what he was doing and continue to train their. What is everybody else take on this touchy subject?

 

[hkfuie]

Once I was asked to test early for 2nd dan. Mostly it was for other reasons that I left that studio, but that played into it. I was not and am not interested in rushing through ranks. I would be embarrassed to wear a rank I thought I could not live up to.

Other than that, I have never questioned when an instructor has asked me to test. I have had alot of trust in my instructors. I think it would definitely interfere with my relationship with my instructor if I did not have that faith in their judgement.

 

[dancingalone]

Terry,

My current teacher is pretty hard line about rank. I started at white belt with him although I had attained a black belt in two different arts before becoming his student. On top of that, it took me a little over 5 more years before I received a dan ranking from him. It was frustrating for me. I could hang with many of his senior students due to my prior training, but I eventually realized he was right for making me start over. I indeed had relatively advanced skills, but they weren't in the flavor or style of the system he taught, and this revealed itself every time I sparred, since I tended to use a long range, kicking-oriented strategy, coming from taekwondo and fanzi quan. Same thing with forms since he would correct me over and over again for something I thought I had 'right' already. Eventually, I learned to do things 'his' way or rather I began to understand the system he was teaching. I'm not sure I would have made the leap if he had allowed me to continue to do things the old way.

All through this process, I worked hard to understand what my teacher was saying because I respected his knowledge and I could see the high level of martial artists he was producing in his small dojo. I wanted to have the context my seniors possessed. It's hard to explain on a message board, but their 'fist' was more than a collection of techniques as mine was at that point. They could adapt and change according to the situation because they understood their bodies as well as the principles of their art.

I never had the feeling that Sensei didn't know what he was talking about. I did feel frustrated and left out since I was often left doing basic drills while others got to work on the 'cool' stuff.

I don't think I could stuck it out if I hadn't seen a tangible difference in the quality of skill between myself and Sensei or his students. I was certainly seasoned enough to know whether he had the goods or not.

So what's my point? In the end, the rank doesn't really matter if you are getting quality instruction otherwise. In the other thread, Faerie seems to have concerns about being promoted too quickly and that her dojang is perhaps soft. This is a red flag to me that perhaps quality control is not as high a priority to the school's master as I would like as a prospective student.

Remember martial arts is not practiced in a void. You need live, resisting, and skilled opponents to become better yourself. If your school doesn't provide that no matter how knowledgeable the teacher is, it's simply not a viable place to train if skill acquisition is your paramount concern. In this particular example, I would review the pluses and minuses of the school with a cold eye to reassess whether I should try there or not. In the end, you must take responsibility for your own training.

 

[igillman]

It depends upon how you feel about rank in general. I would learn from the instructor and try and delay my promotions by only testing every other opportunity. If the quality of instruction is good but the testing pace is a little fast then this will slow it down enough for you to master a belt before moving on to the next one. If you have testing fees then just say "I cannot afford it this time".

Some people feel pressured to do whatever their instructor says. I am of the opinion that an instructor KNOWS when you are NOT ready to test and SUGGESTS when you are ready to test. The instructor can see your outward appearance (and you cannot) and will base their evaluation on that. They do not see your inner thoughts and feelings (which you do). Only when both of them are right is it time to test. Your instructor will let you know when you look right, you will let your instructor know when you feel right.

 

[bluekey88]

That's an interestign question. I guess it comes down to what's more important. If the rank is a big deal for you, then being rushed through may or may not be a good thing (depending on how you feel about rank...are you chasing or do you want to slow down to be "just right."?) On the other hand, if you beleive in your instructor is the rank and how it's handed out really that big of a deal?

I like Igillman's response...it really outlines the dual nature of the student-teacher relationship. Often in MA circles this relationship is falsely pushed into a one-way mold (from teacher to student)...but in reality there isa give and take and both memebers of the relationship have access to knowledge that the other does not.

In the end, a good student-teacher relaitonship will allow for a degree of questioning on the part of the student but at the same time should promote trust so that the teacher can push the student into areas of growth (which is often a scary and uncomfortable experience).

At my school I've seen many aspects of this. I was told rto hold off on testing because I was climbing rank too fast. I was also offered a chance to receive my BB without testing (after a major injury...my instructor said I was a BB without a belt at that point anyway...I politely declined as i wanted to put myself through the rigors of the test and not receive special treatment). I've seen my instructor make students do extra things on a test that they were unprepared for (extra sparring, different breaks, etc.)

In all cases I've not had reason to question motives or competence of my instructor and I'm happy with what I'm doing...that's what matters in the end.

Peace,
Erik

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What happens when you believe in your instructor teaching but not in the promotion side of training. In another thread somebody is questioning there own school but believe in the instructor.

Personally, I find the emphasis that is placed on rank to be a huge distraction. It is the training that is important.

Don't get me wrong; within a school, rank serves its purpose. Also, for those of us who choose to either compete or instruct, rank serves as an important credential. But that is all that it is. Just as all doctorates are not equal, neither are all blackbelts. Also, just as all doctors don't emphasize the same aspects of medicine, neither do all blackbelts. Yet all are called doctors. It isn't the credential that counts: Doctor Smith may be a fanstastic pediatrician, but does he have the training to perform open heart surgury? As a pediatrician, probably not. But that doesn't make him a bad pediatrician.

By the same token, does a fifty year old instructor who's main focus is in teaching kids have the training and conditioning to be an olympic athlete and compete in the olympics in taekwondo? Doubtful. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a good instructor.

My point in all of this is that the rank is just an indicator that you have learned a curriculum set as presented by a specific master at a specific school to a specific level of proficiency. Nothing more. I have a black belt and am probably better than some and not as good as others with the same rank. In addition, I am probably better at some things than another of the same rank, but he will be better than me at other things.

So when you get down to it, you either believe in your instructor or you don't. If you don't, then simply be done with it. If you're in a contract, fulfill your contractual obligation and then be done with it. If you do believe in your instructor, then stay on, train hard, and take the promotions when they come: he or she is promoting you for a reason. Different instructors place emphasis on different things. For some, the emphasis is on the developement of the mind and maturity, feeling that if the mind is brought to maturity, the training will follow. Others are all about the physicality. Neither approach is wrong, but one will likely be more physically demanding than the other.

A lot also depends on what you're after and finding the right instructor. Some very good instructors are not the right instructors for some people. And if you're in a class with one of those instructors that isn't right for you, you can still learn from him or her. Study their teaching technique. Take what they have to offer. I've learned a lot from teachers who were not the right teachers for me.

I'll wrap up here; I risk running on if I don't.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Personally, I find the emphasis that is placed on rank to be a huge distraction. It is the training that is important.

Don't get me wrong; within a school, rank serves its purpose. Also, for those of us who choose to either compete or instruct, rank serves as an important credential. But that is all that it is. Just as all doctorates are not equal, neither are all blackbelts. Also, just as all doctors don't emphasize the same aspects of medicine, neither do all blackbelts. Yet all are called doctors. It isn't the credential that counts: Doctor Smith may be a fanstastic pediatrician, but does he have the training to perform open heart surgury? As a pediatrician, probably not. But that doesn't make him a bad pediatrician.

By the same token, does a fifty year old instructor who's main focus is in teaching kids have the training and conditioning to be an olympic athlete and compete in the olympics in taekwondo? Doubtful. But that doesn't change the fact that he's a good instructor.

My point in all of this is that the rank is just an indicator that you have learned a curriculum set as presented by a specific master at a specific school to a specific level of proficiency. Nothing more. I have a black belt and am probably better than some and not as good as others with the same rank. In addition, I am probably better at some things than another of the same rank, but he will be better than me at other things.

So when you get down to it, you either believe in your instructor or you don't. If you don't, then simply be done with it. If you're in a contract, fulfill your contractual obligation and then be done with it. If you do believe in your instructor, then stay on, train hard, and take the promotions when they come: he or she is promoting you for a reason. Different instructors place emphasis on different things. For some, the emphasis is on the developement of the mind and maturity, feeling that if the mind is brought to maturity, the training will follow. Others are all about the physicality. Neither approach is wrong, but one will likely be more physically demanding than the other.

A lot also depends on what you're after and finding the right instructor. Some very good instructors are not the right instructors for some people. And if you're in a class with one of those instructors that isn't right for you, you can still learn from him or her. Study their teaching technique. Take what they have to offer. I've learned a lot from teachers who were not the right teachers for me.

I'll wrap up here; I risk running on if I don't.

Daniel

Great perspective on the rank thing.

 

[Kacey]

I think my opinion has been covered pretty clearly - train, and let others worry about rank.

Rank, as a motivation for color belt students to keep coming, is valid IMHO; once a student reaches black belt, I would hope that the motivation to continue has transferred from a desire for rank to a desire for further knowledge - I realize that that doesn't happen nearly as often as it should... but there comes a point where instead of learning new information to gain rank, one should gain rank as an incidental adjunct to learning new information; as one learns, one's rank is increases so that those who are not familiar with a particular practitioner has some way to judge that person's knowledge and abilities.

As has been stated previously - rank is not really necessary within a school - instructors and regular students will know who knows what, and what their relative abilities are - rank is to allow people outside the school to have some idea of what unknown people might know (or should know).

 

[MasterWright]

Once I was asked to test early for 2nd dan. Mostly it was for other reasons that I left that studio, but that played into it. I was not and am not interested in rushing through ranks. I would be embarrassed to wear a rank I thought I could not live up to.

Other than that, I have never questioned when an instructor has asked me to test. I have had alot of trust in my instructors. I think it would definitely interfere with my relationship with my instructor if I did not have that faith in their judgement.

I was asked to test early for my Second Dan, just as you were. It was likely because they needed more money as the GM (Won Kap Chung)was from far away. I kinda thought it was to help pay for his trip. I agreed and it was rejected by the Kukkiwon by being submitted too early. Turned out that it sat on someones desk for a long time and was issued even later as a result... lol.

It's ok because I respected this man so much. Either that or wait 6 months or a year for him to come our way again. He was the trainer of our national team at the time so life was busy, I understood why.

 

[YoungMan]

If I recommend you to test, it means I believe you will pass. I would not recommend you if I did not believe you had fulfilled all requirements (technical ability, length of time at rank, age etc.). You, as student, need to trust my judgment. If I recommend you to test, and you decline, I most likely will not recommend you again, because you apparently believe your judgment usurps mine. Testing recommendation is a big responsibility, one reserved for instructor only, and it's not a two way street. If that makes me an inflexible SOB, so be it.

 

[hkfuie]

I was asked to test early for my Second Dan, just as you were. It was likely because they needed more money as the GM (Won Kap Chung)was from far away. I kinda thought it was to help pay for his trip. I agreed and it was rejected by the Kukkiwon by being submitted too early. Turned out that it sat on someones desk for a long time and was issued even later as a result... lol.

It's ok because I respected this man so much. Either that or wait 6 months or a year for him to come our way again. He was the trainer of our national team at the time so life was busy, I understood why.

My story is very different from yours, masterwright.

I was training in the GM's studio. He was there every class. I had not waited the 2 years after 1st dan, his advanced students rushed me through learning the rest of my forms for the test, I had to rush through memorizing his required one step techniques, most of the BB's were asked to test at the same time, it was just before Christmas and suddenly I had to come up with a testing fee that was three times what I was told when I joined the school, and the test ended up being just a little over 1 hour during regular class time.

This was a school that everyone I talked to in my style said, this is the place to be. I think it once was. I met very good martial artists there. The GM was very good.

But his motives had changed.

Thus, I left. My trust in him was broken. It has never happened since, but I would make the same decision again. I won't abdicate my responsibilities to myself in order to be a "good" student. It is just not in me to be a blind follower, I guess.

If that makes me disrespectful student, then so be it.

The OP asked if you could train with someone whose training you trust, but not the rank promotions. My answer is clear, if long. IMO there can be no black/white. There are so many factors involved.

Obviously, Youngman, your integrity is intact. But what would you expect for someone who is training under someone whose integrity is very questionable? Sadly, not every martial arts instructor teaches with the same ethics as you.

So much trust is required between student and teacher if the student is going to allow the teacher to push the boundaries of what the student thinks he is capable. If that trust is not there, you can't learn that you are capable of more than you thought. When I think of what I am most grateful for, this is one of the things for which I can never repay my teachers.

 

[hkfuie]

Just to add even more to an already long post...

The moves you learn are just moves. Everyone teaches punches, kicks, techniques...that's just surface stuff. It is all the OTHER stuff that does not have a name where the value of the training and learning is. That is the stuff I am after...not just more moves in a different order. Get what I mean?

 

[terryl965]

Just to add even more to an already long post...

The moves you learn are just moves. Everyone teaches punches, kicks, techniques...that's just surface stuff. It is all the OTHER stuff that does not have a name where the value of the training and learning is. That is the stuff I am after...not just more moves in a different order. Get what I mean?

This is so true movements are nice but the meet and potatoes are what mwtters.

 

[Kacey]

Just to add even more to an already long post...

The moves you learn are just moves. Everyone teaches punches, kicks, techniques...that's just surface stuff. It is all the OTHER stuff that does not have a name where the value of the training and learning is. That is the stuff I am after...not just more moves in a different order. Get what I mean?

Indeed. Ultimately, the body only moves so many ways, and there are only so many ways to teach that movement, or to emphasize one way over another. We are all impacted by the people around us, for good or bad... those people who impact us the most positively are the ones worth learning from - and some of them are instructors, who go beyond instructing to teaching, in a very special sense - in the sense where in "rabbi" translates as "teacher" (not spiritual advisor, as many people think). Those are the instructors worth learning from, no matter what they are teaching.