A MT argument while at work

[MardiGras Bandit]

Saying most traditional MA's don't want to do MMA is just as bad as saying most of them do. Personally I'd suspect most secretly do, though not seriously. After all MA's are about fighting, and MMA is the most visible fighting forum these days. Between that and all the smack talk the MMA people lay down I suspect alot of people wish they could do it. Then again this post is about how generalizations are stupid, so I should stop before I sound hypocritical.

 

[pstarr]

I disagree. None (count 'em, zip) of the traditional martial arts practitioners I know have any interest whatsoever in competing in MMA - just as they have no interest in climbing into a boxing ring.

Martial arts aren't entirely about fighting - if that's the case, I suggest we all uproot our makiwaras, hang up our uniforms, and strap on a solid .45.

No, traditional martial arts (those that are referred to as "do") are about developing character as well as combative skill.

They're not about winning championships or proving who's the better fighter.

The competition ring is.

 

[Kensai]

I doubt they care much at all. That is irratating, in that it give rise to endless internet arguements in the place of testing their assertions by actually facing off with one another.

Precisely the way your total inability to see anyone else's POV is starting to seriously get up my nose.

You and Mardi Gras Bandit are the guys that give the MMAtist a bad name, you're all right, and everyone else is wrong. Congratulations, you've moved away from reasoned discussion/debate, to "you're all wrong and we're right". You're worse than Phil Elmore, much worse. FFS....Typical muscleman wannabees. What's next, "wanna come round and see who's the hardest"? Why not go into the nearest Gents toilet, and whap it out, like someone else has mentioned, see who's the biggest?!?

 

[MJS]

Accurate history arose rather later in terms of eastern martial arts than it did in other realms of history. Some history is disputed other parts are generally accepted by mainstream historians.

Some rather fanciful accounts of the exploits of the martial arts masters of the past are best not taken at face value.

For instance:

1. Yang Luchan was attacked by a man with a spear. He twisted the shaft of the spear and the man was thrown onto the roof of a five story building.

2. Fuk Yi was in India. Attacked by an elephant, he pushed it off balance and iron palm slapped it once on the ear. It died.

3. Bak Mei came upon a man trying to assault a woman. He punched through the man's chest and rib cage with his hand coming out the man's back, killing him instantly.

Many talented martial artists have had their prowess greatly amplified by unlikely stories. This continues into the present day with men like Rickson Gracie (400-0) and Mas Oyama (did he kill one, two, 52, or "more than sixty" bulls, and what happened to his Judo and Shorinji Kenpo credentials?) whose records are perhaps less amazing than they first appear.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll be the first to say, that I'm far from a History expert. Personally, that was one of my subjects that I was less interested in. Anyways...that being said, I'll go with you on that one, considering there probably is some inflated records out there. I'll use Rickson as an example. Now, I'm certainly not saying that the man is a push over, as he'd tie me up like a pretzel in a few seconds, but I've heard question on his 400-0 record as well. 400 ring fights or any time he rolled with a student during training, was that counted too?

Or in a video recorded challenge match or something of that sort.

Here is where I'll say we'll probably have to agree to disagree. I could enter a grappling event such as MASS Destruction or Naga. I could have the opponent wipe the mat with me. I could fight that same person outside and win. The roles can be reversed as well, I could beat him in the ring and he could beat me outside. My point is, what is that proving? Everyone is going to have their good and bad days, but if I'm fighting him in the ring, where my tools are limited, and lose, does that mean that my training, be it my ground game or my stand up game is useless? The rules are in place so that everyone goes home at the end of the event. Outside, I may not end up going home if I make a mistake.

Sure. However, all claims not recorded are potentially suspect. The next best thing is having talented martial artists who vouch for you (like Mikhail Ryobko, Hatsumi and Bruce Lee have). The third best is credible explanations from a person himself/herself.

As I said, I give the MMA guys a ton of credit for what they do. Personally, I have no desire to enter events like this. I do my best to gear my training to be alive. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how taping myself, having a record, etc. is going to matter when someone is trying to cause me bodily harm. I do my best to avoid fights and as long as I walk away from the confrontation safely, thats all that matters to me. I don't brag about anything and I have no reason to inflate anything I do.

I hope I didn't misunderstand.

I think MMA is limited in some ways, in that it is focused on a certain goal and doesn't do things outside that. For instance, MMA doesn't train techniques for restraining low-level fighters without injuring them, nor does it have offensive weapons work, nor does it have spiritual practices. Thats fine, one just has to go to a style that specializes in those things if they are desired. Including them in MMA would, IMHO, take away from what it is focused on.

No sir, you're not misunderstanding anything. At least we're both admitting that it has its weaknesses. However, going on what you said, I'm doing just that. I've been a big advocate of cross training or cross referencing for a long time now. While I don't enter MMA matches, I as well as my instructors and training partners, take the ideas that these guys use, and include them into our training.

Thanks for the discussion.

Mike

 

[Kensai]

Where does that leave most TMA's? They haven't been proven in combat, and certianly haven't been proven in the ring. You open a Pandora's box if your definition of a combat art has to include all elements of modern battlefield combat. How many MA's include anti-aircraft tactics? Get what I mean? As a few people have said, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick, regardless of it happens in the ring, the street, or Iraq.

The reason MMA style training is more effective then that of most TMA's is it requires resistance training. MMA is a competition, and one can only prepare for it by training with resistance. Even if you don't plan to compete, by training in an MMA style enviroment you will be exposed to this method and greatly benefit from it. I don't mean to hijack this into another "aliveness" thread, but understanding this basic principle behind MMA is key to understanding its success.

EDIT: Damn, I guess I should have read your link before I posted! Now I know what you refer too when you talk about limitations in MMA. I concede the point, MMA does not include chainsaw training. It doesn't even include grass training. Hell, I don't even know what grass training is.

I'm sorry, I forgot the bit in the UFC where MMAtist's train for anti-aircraft techniques. Hmmm... Fighting aircraft with your bare hands. We have resistance training in Wing Chun, in my class, we put pads on and knock the bejesus out of each other, is that MMA? We've drawn blood and snot, does that make us better? Meaner? Getting punched is getting punched, it hurts whether it's been done to you before. The problem I'm starting to find in this free for all now, is that minds are closed, and lines are drawn up. I will say it one. last. time. MMA is good. Great in fact, but it. isn't. the. be. all. and. end. all. of. all. martial. arts. Is that clear enough? <---- See that? That's the sound of a relatively open mind well aware of the advantages of "mixing your martial arts", now please try and show some similar sentiment, and agree to disagree.

 

[MJS]

Rook pretty much covered this, but I'll answer anyway. There is a big difference between modern history and martial arts history. One is well known and researched and the other is a niche field at best filled with false information. Look at historical accounts of martial arts victories and then look towards comon sense. For example: A war was fought in China in the year so and so (fair enough and historicaly true) in which five shaolin monks with sticks defeated 1,300 swordsmen and saved then Emporer (total nonsense). Most often such claims are trotted out as argument winners and claims of effectiveness, and most often they are complete bs.

That is one of the biggest reasons for MMA success. It removed all mystisicm from the martial arts and let people decide what works and what doesn't based off of observable fights, not silly stories. If something works poorly now, why should anyone believe it worked better however many years ago?

Yes, I think this issue has already been summed up pretty good.

I don't think a person has to compete in MMA to prove there worth as a martial artist. I don't do it and never plan to, and the same is true for 99% of people. I value the training method more the the actual sport, because i think that is how real skill is best developed. However when certain arts are consistently unable to provide any practitioner able to be competitive in MMA I have to question that art. The same is true when someone from those arts does compete, but uses little to nothing of what their art teaches and instead relies on standard MMA operating procedure.

I too, value the training aspects, and as I stated to Rook, I include some of those ideas into my own personal training. I can't or really don't want to speak for other people or arts, so I'm just speaking for what I do, but I do my best to keep my training alive, add in some resistance, but still do my best to make what I train in, work under the added conditions.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Mike

 

[MardiGras Bandit]

I'm sorry, I forgot the bit in the UFC where MMAtist's train for anti-aircraft techniques. Hmmm... Fighting aircraft with your bare hands. We have resistance training in Wing Chun, in my class, we put pads on and knock the bejesus out of each other, is that MMA? We've drawn blood and snot, does that make us better? Meaner? Getting punched is getting punched, it hurts whether it's been done to you before. The problem I'm starting to find in this free for all now, is that minds are closed, and lines are drawn up. I will say it one. last. time. MMA is good. Great in fact, but it. isn't. the. be. all. and. end. all. of. all. martial. arts. Is that clear enough? <---- See that? That's the sound of a relatively open mind well aware of the advantages of "mixing your martial arts", now please try and show some similar sentiment, and agree to disagree.

Did you bother to read any part of that post besides the line you highlighted? My point wasn't that I think MMA is the be all end all of martial arts, but that I value the training method as an important part of learning how to fight. If you are doing Wing Chun and sparring, then good for you. Sparring is the best thing one can do to learn.

Before someone says "MMA didn't lead to the creation of sparring, it's been around forever", of course it has. Anyone can spar, but many TMAs don't for whatever reason. Some even claim they can't spar, or that it is not a useful method of training. By contrast MMA and the arts associated always spar, it is an inherent part of training.

EDIT:

I'm sorry, I forgot the bit in the UFC where MMAtist's train for anti-aircraft techniques.

When they are fighting Rumia Sato and the slickest flying armbar the world has ever seen.:ultracool

 

[Rook]

I disagree. None (count 'em, zip) of the traditional martial arts practitioners I know have any interest whatsoever in competing in MMA - just as they have no interest in climbing into a boxing ring.

Martial arts aren't entirely about fighting - if that's the case, I suggest we all uproot our makiwaras, hang up our uniforms, and strap on a solid .45.

No, traditional martial arts (those that are referred to as "do") are about developing character as well as combative skill.

They're not about winning championships or proving who's the better fighter.

The competition ring is.

Thats fine so long as they make clear the limits of their combative elements. I respect alot of the traditionalists who do martial arts for cultural or spiritual reasons. I respect the MMAists who do martial arts for fighting. I don't understand people who claim unproven superiority of their system.

 

[Rook]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'll be the first to say, that I'm far from a History expert. Personally, that was one of my subjects that I was less interested in. Anyways...that being said, I'll go with you on that one, considering there probably is some inflated records out there. I'll use Rickson as an example. Now, I'm certainly not saying that the man is a push over, as he'd tie me up like a pretzel in a few seconds, but I've heard question on his 400-0 record as well. 400 ring fights or any time he rolled with a student during training, was that counted too?

The gist of my comment is that these people, from Yang Yuchan, Fuk Yi, Bak Mei, Rickson Gracie and Mas Oyama are all very talented martial artists who should be taken seriously but whose records are exadurated greatly.

Here is where I'll say we'll probably have to agree to disagree. I could enter a grappling event such as MASS Destruction or Naga. I could have the opponent wipe the mat with me. I could fight that same person outside and win.

Well, most grappling tests only one component of fighting - the ground grappling part. In the street, you might be able to strike standing up, strike on the ground (ie gnp) or such and thus change the outcome of the match. Mostly grappling contests are admittedly designed to test one part of the skill set, just like a kickboxing match is only designed for standup striking.

The roles can be reversed as well, I could beat him in the ring and he could beat me outside. My point is, what is that proving?

Well, it proves who is better in that one aspect of fighting. There are fully resistant matches in all the big four (boxing, muay thai, western wrestling and BJJ) as well as specialized matches in all ranges (kicking, punching, clinch, ground). Dominance in one of them might not reflect weaknesses in other areas.

Everyone is going to have their good and bad days, but if I'm fighting him in the ring, where my tools are limited, and lose, does that mean that my training, be it my ground game or my stand up game is useless?

Not useless. It means someone is better at that portion of fighting.

The rules are in place so that everyone goes home at the end of the event. Outside, I may not end up going home if I make a mistake.

True. However, the line between choking someone out and choking them to death is rather thin and likewise with the neck crank. In the street, it would be easy to continue until the opponent is dead rather than releasing these holds.

Likewise with the short differance between an armbar and a broken arm. Lots of videos exist for those that doubt it will happen.

As I said, I give the MMA guys a ton of credit for what they do. Personally, I have no desire to enter events like this. I do my best to gear my training to be alive.

Ok.

I'm sorry, but I just don't see how taping myself, having a record, etc. is going to matter when someone is trying to cause me bodily harm.

That was directed more towards proving claims. If you don't make outlandish claims, people won't ask for proof. The people who claim great abilities are ussually asked to substantiate.

I do my best to avoid fights and as long as I walk away from the confrontation safely, thats all that matters to me. I don't brag about anything and I have no reason to inflate anything I do.

That puts you in the mainstream of society. Most people, MMA, TMA, RBSD, no training, would rather avoid a fight than get in one and have no desire to trumpet a massive nonexistant record.

No sir, you're not misunderstanding anything. At least we're both admitting that it has its weaknesses. However, going on what you said, I'm doing just that. I've been a big advocate of cross training or cross referencing for a long time now. While I don't enter MMA matches, I as well as my instructors and training partners, take the ideas that these guys use, and include them into our training.

Thanks for the discussion.

Mike

Sounds good. Thanks.

 

[Rook]

Precisely the way your total inability to see anyone else's POV is starting to seriously get up my nose.

You and Mardi Gras Bandit are the guys that give the MMAtist a bad name, you're all right, and everyone else is wrong. Congratulations, you've moved away from reasoned discussion/debate, to "you're all wrong and we're right". You're worse than Phil Elmore, much worse. FFS....Typical muscleman wannabees. What's next, "wanna come round and see who's the hardest"? Why not go into the nearest Gents toilet, and whap it out, like someone else has mentioned, see who's the biggest?!?

Well, the POV I see alot here is one that goes a little like

"I can jump 100 feet in the air whenever I feel like it"
"So do it"
"Well, I don't feel like it, but trust me, I can."

One should not make claims that can't be substantiated. If someone claims to have a large organ, then they should either be ready to show it or shouldn't make such claims. Either way is fine. Making claims and then just asking that the claim be taken at face value because someone said so is not likely to work well.

 

[Kensai]

Right all. Apologies for the angry nature of my last few posts, I've come home this morning to find the front wall of my house smashed down, and one of our front windows has had a brick put through it. The wonders of CHAV Britain. Was venting. Shouldn't have been at you guys. Been "trying" to get hold of the Police for the last several hours, (there are "apparently" no community coppers available at the moment) to be told if I do find the little ***** that did this "if you do aprehend them yourself sir, or in any way touch them, we will be coming round to see you". WTF is that about? Can't defend yourself, can't defend your own home. Absolute joke. Still think this debate has reached it's zenith, just wanted to clear up my last few posts.

Peace.


Jude

 

[still learning]

Hello, You can train in MMA,TMA,Boxing,Kick boxing....train all your life...walk outside and get shot by a gun? ambush with a knife attack and die....?

or kill in a car accidents....which art is the best? Life will give you hundreds of choices..no one art will work for everything....soldiers in wars...are train fighters.....they still get kill/injury.....

Life is short..enjoy it..enjoy your art...enjoy your time here.....

as there is so many martial arts...each of us will find what we enjoy doing..

so many sports..each person can choose..

some rather read a book...watch TV...or go walking....

DOES IT MATTER THE ART? ....just my thoughts....the ART of learning...is endless..............Aloha

 

[hongkongfooey]

Precisely the way your total inability to see anyone else's POV is starting to seriously get up my nose.

You and Mardi Gras Bandit are the guys that give the MMAtist a bad name, you're all right, and everyone else is wrong. Congratulations, you've moved away from reasoned discussion/debate, to "you're all wrong and we're right". You're worse than Phil Elmore, much worse. FFS....Typical muscleman wannabees. What's next, "wanna come round and see who's the hardest"? Why not go into the nearest Gents toilet, and whap it out, like someone else has mentioned, see who's the biggest?!?

Dang Kensai! This thread was going well until you mentioned Dull Phil. Good thing he isn't a member anymore. He would come in here and tell all of us we are wasting our time unless we practice flashlight-do and eyebrow fu.

Sorry to hear about your home being vandalized.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Why does everyone always fight about this pointless comparison?
What is all of this talk about "combat effective"? How many UFC fighters have been in REAL combat, where a determined enemy was actively trying to kill them? How many Traditional MAer's, besides Matt, who has already address this POV? I know that I for one have not.

People who want to fight, go enlist. When you see what mankind does to each other when the combat is real, you just may lose it's cool to fight attitude. Go see what real tough guys are doing in Iraq or Afghanistan, then come back and tell us how important debate this.

 

[funnytiger]

Many people practice swordwork today, but I hear no one say that their sword is a superior battlefield weapon to the gun.

For the love of Pete... Do me a favor Kevin. For the sake of argument, please post quotes from anyone on here who has said that TMA is BETTER than MMA. I think that will help us all understand your argument a bit better.

The analogy is imperfect. I'll try another one later.

I agree. I look forward to a better analogy. This time I want more drama and perhaps a little sex... but just a little.

 

[shesulsa]

This is a recurring argument and we have many others on this very topic on MT.

Let's remember to keep our conversation civil.

 

[Kensai]

Also, if you're gonna leave negative feedback, at least have the guts to leave your name, so whoever it was that gave me mine, at least admit it? PM me if you like, whatever. Just have the balls to do it. I suspect one or two people though.

 

[matt.m]

Hello all,

A big, and long debate went on with me and coworkers about the martial arts. We are all pratitioners, or have been, both with the MMA's, and TMA's.
(I'll consider, for the sake of argument, the "eclectic styles" TMA's as well. They've been around long enough)

We argued from a reality point of view, and their application, since we are in the security/LEO industry.

What went back and forth was That the MMA's are the new revolution in the MA world, bringing everyone else (or forcing them, which was the word used) into the light. The TMA's were dated, maybe revolutionary back in the day, but, now MOSTLY irrelevant. They were designed to defend against that one big punch by a drunk, where you take a stance, block it, etc.. It was said that no one fights that way for real, it's more like a MMA flow to it.

Where does everyone stand on this?

Sorry if I sound overly opinionated but people fight the same way they did 200 years ago. Think of indian wrestling etc. etc. Most fights ended up on the ground then to. Judo, Jiujitsu, and similiar arts have been around for 200 yrs. as well. They are TMA's. Hapkido and Aikido came from Daito Ryu Aiki Jiujitsu.

I am not going to get into a big "MMA is a sport" argument or anything like that. However, I think your friends at work are debating on little knowledge or factual data. Just my .02.

While I served in the Marine Corps, I was part of the detachment of Marines that were there for riot control and house to house fighting. That was 12 years ago. I found that side kicks, hapkido cane techniques, throwing and locks worked very well considering.

 

[Hand Sword]

I can't really blame them. All they know is the reality of their lives. For them, The TMA's are what they are now, and the "real stuff" is what the MMA shows. All they have as representation of the TMA's is what is seen in the fights at work, in mixed competition, and in their watered down material. It's not their fault. They have no idea of what the training used to be for the TMA side of things. From their argument, I think they are at least correct on the assumption that the MMA's have given a nice wake up call to the state of the TMA side, in terms of how it is now.

 

[makavilli68]

well i only got one post but i dont think TMA are practical for a street fight and im not just talking about Mcdojos sure theres exceptions...theres exceptions to everything...but TMA have a lot of set moves that are complex and complicated

if you guys have ever been in a street fight you would know that you get a big adrenaline rush and cant move properly besides trying to swing hard...i think moves from boxing and muay thai are easy enough and practical to use in a street fight plus they hit very hard

of course if you train for 30 years in this TMA of your just trying to use it in a street fight im sure you will be able to handle the adrenaline dump by then but you can learn to fight much better with more practical arts i believe