A MT argument while at work

[Xue Sheng]

than by now we should have seen someone with, say, Northern Mantis and JJJ win a major fight by now.

"And I know this is very difficult for some MMA people to except, but MMA does not matter all that much too many Martial artists."

Why have I not seen an MMA guy beat a Sanshaou guy or a boxer or a Sumo wrestler, etcetera etcetera etcetera

This is an old, pointless and baseless argument that can be used by anyone that fights any sport professionally.

For that matter why have I not see an MMA guy win a track and field event? This is the logic of the statement you are making.

I drive a Buick and all other cars are nothing compares to my Buick and if you drive anything other than a Buick you are just practicing to drive a Buick. Because my Buick is better than anything else. And if your Chevy was so good why isn't it sold in a Buick showroom. Why don't Buick mechanics work on it?

Or NASCAR is better than Drag racing and if Drag racing was so good why don't they race in NASCAR. The argument is pointless, but it is all you have so you stick with it.

MMA is no better or worse than Northern Mantis and Northern Mantis is no better or worse than Wing Chun and Wing Chun is no better or worse than Jujitsu and Jujitsu is no better or worse than Mauy Thai and Mauy Thai is no better or worse than Shuaijiao . It is the practitioner that makes the difference. And to claim its superiority based on your argument or the fact it is on TV is not only wrong it is prejudice and elitist.

 

[Hand Sword]

Two major problems with your assessment, one is that untrained means unskilled. They have experience and thats the best training. Lets face it, what makes them dangerous isn't that they are unskilled, its that they are skilled in a way you don't/can't understand. The second, is the assumption that any violent encounter outside the dojo in the real world is a street fight. Its not...

There are essentually three types of encounters a criminal act, a brawl and a street fight. A brawl is that drunken soccer fight or the road rage nut, its a one time attack where you see the opponent coming. The criminal attack is the muggings and such. A street fight is an assault, often times executed repeatedly in a juvinille attempt to claim dominance. The "if I attack you I no longer become the victim" mentality...

I said the exact same thing in my second part. I was using the wording that I felt was being conveyed by others, it wasn't my assessment.

I would respectfully disagree with one thing. All of the above are criminal acts, so there are not 3 there is only one side--illegal. Other than that it's a legal, law abiding citizen. All 3 end the same way, an attack against you. That's the important thing, motives and what happens after are irrelevant if you survive the attack. However, in my scenario with the alphas, they are also the ones that do these 3 things you described, so again--it's all the same. Fighting them is fighting them.

Besides, my quote that you quoted was just a warning (from one with experience on both sides of the fence) to my fellow martial artisits. I didn't want to get into a semantic fight or side track the thread. It was just a dangerous mind set that I felt was present that I wanted to impart some helpful knowledge. (sorry, communicating with others is one of my weak points--but, working on it)

 

[Last Fearner]

Hi everyone!

I have taken the time to read all of the earlier posts in this thread, and I must say there is some great stuff there! Many have said things I agree with, while some have made comments or expressed points of views that I do not, but I do not want to nitpick.

Let me share some points that I believe are relevant. Traditional Martial Art training (or TMA as it is referred to here) was the way things were done from the beginning of this concept known as the "Martial Art." Bearing in mind that the vast majority of complete "Martial Art" training is about life, one's personal development, and enhancing their enjoyment, experience, and appreciation of life. Defense of one's self, and the preservation of life is only a small portion of the full curriculum, but an important part.

Any Martial Artist, and any Martial Art self defense training needs to be only one thing - - effective. If anyone knows of any genuine, Traditional Martial Art that was not designed to be "effective," please let me know. Were they effective? Yes. Consider the movie "Last Samurai" with Tom Cruise (I know, its just a movie, but...). When the samurai fought in battles, it was those who were good that survived, and returned home. Those were the ones who taught the next generation..... and they taught what works. This was true for all Traditional Martial Art, and should hold true today.

In the Army, I was trained by drill sergeants who had fought in Viet-Nam, and survived. They knew how to prepare you for combat, but, of course, nothing prepares you for combat quite like combat itself. In any case, we did not have privates who had never fought in combat teaching new recruits. The problem with many Martial Art schools is that there are privates, who somehow got promoted to generals, and are teaching without knowing what they are talking about. These are not "traditional Martial Artists," even if they claim to be.

"MMA," stands for "Mixed Martial Art!" Mixed what? Over time, as traditional Martial Art has been imitated, with less qualified instructors, and sport oriented curriculum, many schools who claim to be "Traditional" are teaching portions of the whole. Over the centuries, the true, traditional Martial Art has been ripped apart, taylor made for everyone's personal desires, and the pieces have crumbled to the ground. Then, some people with limited training starts picking up these pieces, putting them back together, and claiming to have created something new, superior, or the "light" and the "connection" between the Martial Art and street defense - - not so.

If they are lucky, they will find all of the pieces, and re-assemble what already existed in Traditional Martial Art. Often times, they discard pieces themselves, and claim to use only what works - what works for them. The "true" Traditional training has remained intact all along, yet continues to modify and adapt to modern situations - as the Martial Art was originally intended to do. It is a false notion to think the this so-called "MMA" is the link, connection, or completion of an effective self defense system. It is modern re-invention of the wheel. It already exists. Those who call themselves "Mixed Martial Artists" can be effective in real-life encounters, the same as any other skilled Martial Artist.

As to competition, there are skills that come from participating in these events which can carry over into street defense, and give that fighter an advantage in most real-life situations. However, we know that being good in any type of competition does not automatically equate being successful in the street. Example: I have competed in the past, and often done well in tournaments. However, at age 46, with 41 years of Martial Art training, and 28 years of teaching Taekwondo, if I were to compete in a tournament and lose a match to a twenty-some year old 2nd Dan, it would be a mistake for him to think that if we met outside (and he had an attitude, and wanted to kick my butt), that the result in the street would be the same as just happened in the ring - - not likely!

The notion that Traditional Martial Artists are "stiff," "flat footed" in their stances, or "slow" to respond and don't flow smooth can only come from observing those who are not trained properly in "TMA." The basics that teach solid stances, firm blocks, and powerful counter attacks are a foundation that many novice never move beyond. Advanced "traditional" training is smooth, quick, and light on the feet. Those textbook stances and blocks are to be used in certain circumstances, and should flow into the advance skills.

Those who would respond with such rudimentary basics are not applying advanced Traditional Training Methods. Just as the Aikidoka successfully uses a parry, restraints, and controls in the LEO scenarios, so should any other TMA (Taekwondo, with an inclusion of Hapkido, and Hoshinsul, does this. This is not "Mixed" or "Cross-Training" in Korean Martial Art, but the culmination of what the total package of Korean Martial Art should be under the heading of Taekwondo).

[Note: Just to qualify some of my statements, I worked 5 years as a police officer, 7 years as the security director of a night club with a staff of 10 - 12 (some off duty-police, and several Martial Artists), and about 28 years in and out of the security industry, including currently training executive protection officers].

This thread is a good dialogue about a serious topic with deep-rooted opinions. I commend those for expressing your views with respect to others. I hope I have done the same without offending anyone!

Sincerely,
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Hand Sword]

Thank you sir!

 

[pstarr]

Very well said!

 

[Cirdan]

Insightful :asian:

 

[Hand Sword]

Thinking about this topic, now some time after, would it be safe to say, that, maybe not being revolutionary, the MMA's haveadded life to the MA's in general? Speaking from the old school point of view, things turned into this watered down world, where it had stayed stagnated for years. The MA's have been reduced to soccer mom status, something the kids do just to keep them out of the parents hair, or like a daycare center. Look at the commercial on tv now, the mom is driving the kids to lacross, dancing and karateeeeyah! This Mc Dojo syndrome has all but, extinguished the old way of doing things, and leaving the younger generations (at my work and younger) as the only source of reference of the MA"s. For them, the MMA stuff and methods is "new" and exciting. Part of the passion expressed here is because we are all serious about the arts, so, the MMA side of the argument is upsetting. But, maybe, just maybe, the MMA's have peaked the interest of the newbies, so that they will train hard and bring respectability back to the arts, and finally break the McDojo hold.

In reality, if you are a serious artist, both sides of this issue are saying thinking and doing the same thing, IMHO, which is training hard and for real. Both ways are very well equipped for real. The TMA's- proven many times. The MMA's-Boxing, groundfighting, and kickboxing (muay thai) surely helpful for real, if skilled in it.

respect to all!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cross training in multiple styles is fine and well, but if the crosstraining is simply in multiple TMAs, it likely still won't work effectively against MMA fighters. This sort of thing bothers me. If it is simply a matter of crosstraining, or making sure to include all ranges of combat, than by now we should have seen someone with, say, Northern Mantis and JJJ win a major fight by now. It just still hasn't happened, and I don't think it will soon.

MMA is not combat but sport fighting. There is a distinct differance. While MMA has proven to be very, very effective in a ring, one on one. It has yet been effectively proven on the battlefield. That does not mean that over time it might not be proven to be the best on the battlefield but as of yet it has not accomplished that. Your above statement about all ranges of combat is not quite right either. MMA generally works in Kicking, Hand Striking and Grappling. It rarely deals with trapping or locking while standing up nor does it address weapons. Now having said the above, weapons, kicking, hand striking trapping and grappling are not ranges but areas of combat. Ranges are Long, Medium and Short. So if someone is firing a rifle at me from a distance of say 100 meters he is at a long range in comparison to me. MMA generally covers medium to short range. (striking and grappling generally included here) While I love MMA both watching and training it is important to understand that in order for someone to refer to it as combat then one would have to add weapons training and standing locking and trapping into the mix. Only then would it be defined as a combat art. Training for the ring and training to survive on the street or in a war zone are two completely different things.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Thinking about this topic, now some time after, would it be safe to say, that, maybe not being revolutionary, the MMA's haveadded life to the MA's in general? Speaking from the old school point of view, things turned into this watered down world, where it had stayed stagnated for years. The MA's have been reduced to soccer mom status, something the kids do just to keep them out of the parents hair, or like a daycare center. Look at the commercial on tv now, the mom is driving the kids to lacross, dancing and karateeeeyah! This Mc Dojo syndrome has all but, extinguished the old way of doing things, and leaving the younger generations (at my work and younger) as the only source of reference of the MA"s. For them, the MMA stuff and methods is "new" and exciting. Part of the passion expressed here is because we are all serious about the arts, so, the MMA side of the argument is upsetting. But, maybe, just maybe, the MMA's have peaked the interest of the newbies, so that they will train hard and bring respectability back to the arts, and finally break the McDojo hold.

In reality, if you are a serious artist, both sides of this issue are saying thinking and doing the same thing, IMHO, which is training hard and for real. Both ways are very well equipped for real. The TMA's- proven many times. The MMA's-Boxing, groundfighting, and kickboxing (muay thai) surely helpful for real, if skilled in it.

respect to all!

I think that MMA has definately added a peaked interest to the martial arts and no doubt it has been very, very good for martial arts in general.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Rook]

So what is MMA? Where did it come from? Did it just magic from out of the void? The clue is really in the title. "Mixed Martial Arts". To me that suggests a , well, mix of martial arts. JJJ as opposed to BJJ? Again, nothing SO revolutionary as to define it as utterly different. If I trained Wing Chun and BJJ, would I be doing MMA, or would I be X training? MMA is simply a concept, a name for mixing your arts. Is BJJ a MMA? Or Hapkido? Or JJJ because they contain elements of all types of fighting? This is where MMA is NOT something along the lines of a brand spanking new invention, it simply isn't, if you think it is, then you've been had by marketing mate. Your choice though.

In the end if someone trains in Northen Mantis and JJJ, as someone has mentioned, a kick is just a kick, a punch just a punch, and so on ad infinitum. I train at the moment in Wing Chun. Supposedly renowned for fast short range linear attacks. Does that mean that we never ever hook if the chance presents itself? Or use elbows? Or knee strikes? Of course not. We use whatever we can to win. A knee or elbow strike isn't solely owned by the likes of Muay Thai, many/most/all arts have common links, human physiology dictates the limit of what we do in a fight, certain arts may use them more than others and build a rep for it, but by the same principle MMA isn't the only time you'll see a multitude of strikes, grapples or throws. We use basic WC tenets in SD/fighting, but use other great weapons in our "main arsenal" such as knees, kicks, elbows. Does that mean I'm not doing Wing Chun as a result, perhaps not to purists, who are equally as close minded, but I don't care about offending those with a closed mind. Don't mean to sound callous, and I agree with various points you make mate, I just don't see MMA as the be all and end all, just in the same way I don't see any art as that.

For me now, although I don't mind watching the likes of the UFC, it bores me silly. Essentially what it comes down to now is 200lb musclemen with incredible genetics, who train all day every day, weights, sparring, fighting, and have a background in several ranges/arts. I much prefer a sanshou bout, ok, not "normally" as bloody, but I find it more entertaining.

This debate has also gone slightly off topic and gone to a "no pure TMA guy has ever won a MMA competition" again.

While there is substantial overlap between styles, including traditional styles and modern MMA, the strategy and training combined with the techniques of MMA has so far proven pretty much totally dominent over virtually all comers.

Having the same techniques or similar techniques may indicate similar arts, it doesn't mean the same training methods, strategy, tactics, or position. BJJ has a positional hierachy on the ground that has largely been adopted by everyong who fights MMA today, whereas previous systems, such as JJJ, emphasized an immediate submission from where you found yourself OR, alternatively, from a particular position. It also differs from the positional hierachy in western freestyle wrestling, for instance.

I will gladly expand on this is it remains unclear.

 

[Rook]

"And I know this is very difficult for some MMA people to except, but MMA does not matter all that much too many Martial artists."

Why have I not seen an MMA guy beat a Sanshaou guy or a boxer or a Sumo wrestler, etcetera etcetera etcetera

This is an old, pointless and baseless argument that can be used by anyone that fights any sport professionally.

For that matter why have I not see an MMA guy win a track and field event? This is the logic of the statement you are making.

I drive a Buick and all other cars are nothing compares to my Buick and if you drive anything other than a Buick you are just practicing to drive a Buick. Because my Buick is better than anything else. And if your Chevy was so good why isn't it sold in a Buick showroom. Why don't Buick mechanics work on it?

Or NASCAR is better than Drag racing and if Drag racing was so good why don't they race in NASCAR. The argument is pointless, but it is all you have so you stick with it.

MMA is no better or worse than Northern Mantis and Northern Mantis is no better or worse than Wing Chun and Wing Chun is no better or worse than Jujitsu and Jujitsu is no better or worse than Mauy Thai and Mauy Thai is no better or worse than Shuaijiao . It is the practitioner that makes the difference. And to claim its superiority based on your argument or the fact it is on TV is not only wrong it is prejudice and elitist.

Look, you're confusing personal enjoyment with combat effectiveness. For instance, if your favorite car is a buick you could argue its the "best" car in the world. However, if you claim it is the fastest, you will swiftly find Formula 1, dragracing, and Nascar fans pointing out that their cars are PROVEN faster. Not the same as better, perhaps, but definitively faster.

Likewise, you can claim any art to be the "best" (most fun, enjoyable, fullfilling whatever). However, I don't think you could credibly claim an ability to beat MMAist in a fight lacking rules with equivalent size and training.

 

[Rook]

MMA is not combat but sport fighting. There is a distinct differance. While MMA has proven to be very, very effective in a ring, one on one. It has yet been effectively proven on the battlefield. That does not mean that over time it might not be proven to be the best on the battlefield but as of yet it has not accomplished that. Your above statement about all ranges of combat is not quite right either. MMA generally works in Kicking, Hand Striking and Grappling. It rarely deals with trapping or locking while standing up nor does it address weapons. Now having said the above, weapons, kicking, hand striking trapping and grappling are not ranges but areas of combat. Ranges are Long, Medium and Short. So if someone is firing a rifle at me from a distance of say 100 meters he is at a long range in comparison to me. MMA generally covers medium to short range. (striking and grappling generally included here) While I love MMA both watching and training it is important to understand that in order for someone to refer to it as combat then one would have to add weapons training and standing locking and trapping into the mix. Only then would it be defined as a combat art. Training for the ring and training to survive on the street or in a war zone are two completely different things.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

Well, do you expect that MMAists lose their ability to fight like the biblical story of Sampson getting his hair cut the moment they step out of the cage?

As I pointed out earlier, in the earlier days of teh UFC, before it became an established sport, many of the practitioners were streetfighters as opposed to athletes or TMAists. Virtually every UFC was followed by (as well as sometimes preceeded by) a fight in the hotel as well as surounding areas. Sometimes, these were one on one, other times they turned into mass brawls. Do you think these people suddenly said "Hey, all our streetfighting and ring fighting is useless outside the cage, lets all go study to be ninjas?"

 

[Kensai]

Look, you're confusing personal enjoyment with combat effectiveness. For instance, if your favorite car is a buick you could argue its the "best" car in the world. However, if you claim it is the fastest, you will swiftly find Formula 1, dragracing, and Nascar fans pointing out that their cars are PROVEN faster. Not the same as better, perhaps, but definitively faster.

Likewise, you can claim any art to be the "best" (most fun, enjoyable, fullfilling whatever). However, I don't think you could credibly claim an ability to beat MMAist in a fight lacking rules with equivalent size and training.

That is pure speculation. Where's the empirical evidence for that? A counter question of equal absurdity would be "would a MMA beat a TMA in a fight 100% of the time?" This is ONLY, PURELY, SIMPLY, a "I've got a bigger **** than you" with regards to MA. Utterly pointless debate now.

 

[Kensai]

Double post.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Look, you're confusing personal enjoyment with combat effectiveness. For instance, if your favorite car is a buick you could argue its the "best" car in the world. However, if you claim it is the fastest, you will swiftly find Formula 1, dragracing, and Nascar fans pointing out that their cars are PROVEN faster. Not the same as better, perhaps, but definitively faster.

Likewise, you can claim any art to be the "best" (most fun, enjoyable, fullfilling whatever). However, I don't think you could credibly claim an ability to beat MMAist in a fight lacking rules with equivalent size and training.

What are you talking about????

I never said anything about being the best or something was best.

And you have entirely missed my point all together whether intentionally or accidentally.

You avoid some things I say and attack things I didn't say. The only person that seems to be claiming superiority her is you in regards to MMA.

I have only a couple of more things to ask

How long have you trained MMA and how many matches have you fought?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mr. Eisenhart

:asian:

 

[Rook]

What are you talking about????

I never said anything about being the best or something was best.

And you have entirely missed my point all together whether intentionally or accidentally.

You avoid some things I say and attack things I didn't say. The only person that seems to be claiming superiority her is you in regards to MMA.

I have only a couple of more things to ask

How long have you trained MMA and how many matches have you fought?

I don't train MMA. I train in karate for my own entertainment and not expecting either combat effectivenss or spiritual development.

If not superiority, lets go with your claim of "equality" among styles. Lets go back to you're Buick example. If you say "All cars are equally fast it just depends on who is driving, therefore my Buick is just as fast as a Formula One racer" anyone with a stopwatch, radar gun, or access to a TV could tell that you are measurably wrong.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't train MMA. I train in karate for my own entertainment and not expecting either combat effectivenss or spiritual development.

If not superiority, lets go with your claim of "equality" among styles. Lets go back to you're Buick example. If you say "All cars are equally fast it just depends on who is driving, therefore my Buick is just as fast as a Formula One racer" anyone with a stopwatch, radar gun, or access to a TV could tell that you are measurably wrong.

You don't train MMA, but you are saying things like Sanshou is a good starting point for MMA (And you also don't train Sanshou, which would explain your lack of knowledge of it). You don’t train MMA and yet you are arguing for it against all other styles. You don't train MMA and you do train Karate and you are judging CMA by what? The TV show kung fu and movies.

As for the Buick example, you have already entirely missed my point, so changing it to fit your argument is at this point... well… pointless

okie dokie, nuff said, were done.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well, do you expect that MMAists lose their ability to fight like the biblical story of Sampson getting his hair cut the moment they step out of the cage?

As I pointed out earlier, in the earlier days of teh UFC, before it became an established sport, many of the practitioners were streetfighters as opposed to athletes or TMAists. Virtually every UFC was followed by (as well as sometimes preceeded by) a fight in the hotel as well as surounding areas. Sometimes, these were one on one, other times they turned into mass brawls. Do you think these people suddenly said "Hey, all our streetfighting and ring fighting is useless outside the cage, lets all go study to be ninjas?"

What your missing is that people who study for combat or war due not study for fighting. They are different animals altogether. Someone who trains MMA does not lose their ability to fight once outside of the ring. However, outside of the ring their are no rules to protect them. People who train for real world conflict due not play by rules and therefore their training is more geared toward reality. You defend how you train, so to speak. As a MMA person if you train for the ring that will carry over in how you defend yourself on the street. Most MMA's are geared towards the ring and towards a fight, so to say. Combtive martial arts are not geared towards fighting but in surving a violent encounter. There are differances between the two. Could an MMA guy or girl be successful in defending themselves on the street, sure! Does it mean that they will be successful in the real world just because they study MMA, no!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Rook,

Understand that I enjoy MMA as well as the next guy. I just see the limitations involved when training for a sport.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com