A master's pet-peeves
- Thread starter IcemanSK
- Start date
All the Kwanjangs who learned Karate in Japan were teaching Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, etc. The closest thing that you can find to what was being taught at that time is GM Son. I believe he teaches Chung Do Kwan as it was taught to him by GM Won Kuk Lee.
Mike
Mike
Which, in a way, proves my point. The Tae Kwon Do we practice today is much closer to Korean Taekkyon in terms of kicks and steps used than the older, karate-influenced style of 50 years ago. All you have to do is look at it. Perhaps at one time it was closer to karate, but cetainly not now, especially as the Koreans rediscovered their heritage and allowed it to express itself in Tae Kwon Do.
Why call it Karate or Korean Karate when it certainly is not? In the old days it would have been marketing; now it's just denial.
Why call it Karate or Korean Karate when it certainly is not? In the old days it would have been marketing; now it's just denial.
Right. Song Duk Ki, the man declared a Living Cultural Asset in 1987 by the Korean government for essentially single-handedly preserving Taekyon, identified it explicitly in his book as strictly a folk game of taekkyon (p.8). SDK's chief student and Chairman of the Taekyon Research Association Lee Yong-bak (quoted in Young's 1993 JAMA article on the history and development of Taekyon from a recorded personal interview with LYB), emphasize that the primary kicking techs in traditional taekyon were low attacks on the opponent's knees and feet) This is anything like the kicks of TKD, at any time in its development?? :lol:
According to SDK himself, there were only three or four people in all at the time of his one-man performance in front of Syngman Rhee in 1958 who knew taekyon. He couldn't find anyone to demonstrate with. There were a grand total of ten or so earlier in the 20th century. At the time of the Rhee demonstration, there were hundreds of TKD dojangs in Korea, and kicks had been getting steadily higher from the early days of the post-Occupation. An relic game with a handful of practitioners in the Korean War era grows up in the shadow of Korean national martial art (practiced by hundreds of thousands, and the military combative standard of the RoK army), and in its current form, with several thousand active participants, shows the full range of modern TKD kicks, having nothing to do with the leg-wrestling that SDK and LYB describe, and this somehow means that TKD got those kicks from this leg-wresting game?? Rather than getting its front kicks, side kicks and turning kicks that Karate possessed before the first KMAists went to Tokyo to learn MAs from Gichin Funakoshi and Toyama Kanken?
You're saying the Korean 'heritage' in the MAs was, as it turns out, a competitive foot wrestling game that is first mentioned at the very end of the 18th century, bearing—as per the testimony of the leading practitioner of this game in the 20th century and his chief students—no relation to anything like the technical content of TKD??
I had thought that my example of French and Latin made the point clear, YM, but apparently not. So let me try again. The point is, you said TKD never was karate. I am saying, with massive documentation based on the best critical history we have, that all the evidence shows that TKD originated in Korea in the immediate prewar and Liberation phase of modern Korean history as the local development there of Japanese karate, just as French emerged as a local dialect of Latin in what was once Gaul. French is no longer the same thing as Latin. TKD is no longer the same thing as Japanese karate, just as Japanese karate is no longer the same thing as its Okinawan ancestor. The term Korean karate is properly described as a description to the local Korean development of karate. And as for denial, it's certainly relevant to the present discussion, and consists of refusal to look at the detailed evidence that has been assembled by professional MA historians with no axe to grind in the matter, or the testimony of people who were actually there at the beginning of the art, without nationalist agendas of their own, or any other aspect of the evidence. The reason why the appearance of this particular 'pet peeve' is so interesting is because it represents a point along the same continuum as what Gm. Kim, in his Black Belt/Martial Talk Magazine interview that I posted a link to in a previous post describes in the following very telling passage:
In 1960, I would frequently visit the Korean Taesoo-Do Association office. During one visit, a kwan head instructor got very angry with me because I wrote some history about his organization that included a connection to karate through Japan. I knew he had a reputation of assaulting people when he was mad at them, instead of talking or arguing. He was a “hit first, ask questions later-type person.” Luckily, the Vietnam Taekwondo delegation was visiting the Taesoo-Do Association that day. So, the kwan head instructor had to calm down because of the witnesses. This is an example of the feeling many people held for the Japanese.
For this guy too, TKD's crucial link in origin to Japanese karate was a 'pet peeve', aka something that he was willing to deny, and impose denial of, even up to the point of violence. A lot of people hate for their comfortable, self-serving origin myths to be punctured; you could say that that's the kind of thing that most people have a pet peeve about. Certainly it seems a very, very different order of phenomenon from soiled doboks and incomplete bows at the door.
As I've pointed out already, at his own dojang, it's Master Whang's call. But that has nothing to do with the weight of evidence, whether he—or anyone else—chooses to persist in ignoring it.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
Please take that discussion to another thread.
OK, Ice, can do. It seems to me to have a bearing on the nature of the peeves in the list... but we'll stop now.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Exile,
Please don't cloud the issue with facts. OK, being serious for a moment, I used to believe the popular Korean myth of the roots and origins of TKD for a long time. However, after reading the evidence I had little choice but to accept the truth of the historical roots of TKD and othe KMA's. Either that or stick my head in the sand and go "LA LA LA, I can't hear you." It just seems far too cult-ish to me to take that approach.
Please don't cloud the issue with facts. OK, being serious for a moment, I used to believe the popular Korean myth of the roots and origins of TKD for a long time. However, after reading the evidence I had little choice but to accept the truth of the historical roots of TKD and othe KMA's. Either that or stick my head in the sand and go "LA LA LA, I can't hear you." It just seems far too cult-ish to me to take that approach.
This is an Unofficial nudge here can we keep the decussion to the topic and the converstation polite.
Thanks
A TKD guy that loves his Art
Thanks
A TKD guy that loves his Art
I second both motions...
It's getting frustrating that it seems that each and every thread about TKD turns into a dispute about the history. I know there are several threads that discuss this already... does it have to repeat every time? (I ask rhetorically.)
jim777
Master Black Belt
I honestly don't think you can fault someone for yawning, especially if they are, oh, to pick a number at random.....46 or so :lol: It happens 
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Here's what it matters to me
Everyone does MA for any number of several reasons:
Self-defense, Conditioning, Art, Spirituality, Sport.
Everyone has their own balance and their own priorities that they work out for themself and I've no problem with anyone's motivations
However, for me...here's the order:
1. Self-Defense - The biggie
2. Sport - Have a little fun and use it as a training tool for the first
3. Conditioning - both a by product and necessity of the first two
4. Art -I'm already have forms of artistic expression (mostly music) so this one comes along for the ride. Not really a goal or motivation but nice to have *if* it doesn't interfere with the rest
5. Spirituality - No interest in MA for me.
So when people get into the history of Tae Kwon Do (or pronunciation of terms or whatever), my first question is "does this help me punch harder?" (so to speak) and if the answer is "yes" then I'm there but if the answer is "not really" than.. it may be of curiosity but it's not all that important to me.
I know to others the Art is far more important than it is to me and t hats good for those that take that interest but..if some jerk shoves me up against the wall and I have to knee him in the groin...it mattes precious little whether that knee shot was from Japan, China, or Mars
Everyone does MA for any number of several reasons:
Self-defense, Conditioning, Art, Spirituality, Sport.
Everyone has their own balance and their own priorities that they work out for themself and I've no problem with anyone's motivations
However, for me...here's the order:
1. Self-Defense - The biggie
2. Sport - Have a little fun and use it as a training tool for the first
3. Conditioning - both a by product and necessity of the first two
4. Art -I'm already have forms of artistic expression (mostly music) so this one comes along for the ride. Not really a goal or motivation but nice to have *if* it doesn't interfere with the rest
5. Spirituality - No interest in MA for me.
So when people get into the history of Tae Kwon Do (or pronunciation of terms or whatever), my first question is "does this help me punch harder?" (so to speak) and if the answer is "yes" then I'm there but if the answer is "not really" than.. it may be of curiosity but it's not all that important to me.
I know to others the Art is far more important than it is to me and t hats good for those that take that interest but..if some jerk shoves me up against the wall and I have to knee him in the groin...it mattes precious little whether that knee shot was from Japan, China, or Mars
FieldDiscipline
2nd Black Belt
It made me smile anyway.
jim777
Master Black Belt
There you go
To be honest, I like the katas and forms best. The self defense would actually second for me. I love the art involved in being able to correctly perform the forms, eyes closed, just me and the motion. I should probably be doing Tai Chi :lol:
To be honest, I like the katas and forms best. The self defense would actually second for me. I love the art involved in being able to correctly perform the forms, eyes closed, just me and the motion. I should probably be doing Tai Chi :lol:
WMKS Shogun
Green Belt
Without knowing the history and philosophy of your art, the conditions which created it, and the values that it strives to create and uphold in its practitioners, a martial art could easily turn into street fighting. I am probably taking what you said slightly out of context, but just my two cents on the general lack of historical knowledge concerning martial arts. I do agree about the knee to the groin comment though.
Exile. I agree with you and enjoyed this little diversion from the original pet peeves theme.
On a personal note concerning the list (leaving out my opinions on the Korean Karate/gi/obi/dojo thing) I have a few comments:
*The "Tae" as in "Ted" I believe GM Whang means the "ae" sound in in "Tae" should be pronounced in the same fashion as the 'e' sound in "Ted" (as in a short E sound as opposed to a long I as in "Tie" )
* "Kihap" actually means "energy in harmony" but is understood to mean "the spirit filled yell of a Korean Martial artist" (for the record, the ki and hap in kihap are the same words that make up hapkido). However, I do agree that hearing people yell "Kihap!" drives me crazy.
* the running bow is annoying.
* Joonbi's I feel are left to each school/org. to figure out what is the correct approach.
There are many hypothesized reasons for yawning,
~Cool the brain
~Prevent Avoelar collapse
~To increase oxygen levels when carbon dioxde levels are high
~And to equalize pressure in the middle ear
But it's definately a biomechanical response that can't always be helped.
I hate them in class because as soon as someone starts yawning I seem to have no choice but to follow
.The "ki-hap" pronounced ki-hap drives me crazy to, Ki-Ya as well!
Personally my biggest pet-peeve is outside of the Dojang.
When people see you in your dobok and belt or even if you bring up the fact that you practice Taekwondo.
The majority of people have to imitate what they think you do in martial arts. The annoying whine, while they move their hand (in blades) around in circles.
