A "hypothetical" question for anyone

[JustAVisitor]

Talent should not be smothered by procedures and limited by standards. It shall be cultivated and pushed to another level. I hope that he did do the test.
Talent should be coached and freely explored. All he needs is a strong hand that he trusts will guide him where he needs to be. Hopefully, there is someone in your school that he respects and will listen to, who can teach him about discipline and humility. I hope that he is assisting a mature instructor.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Anybody else waiting for Laurentkd's response? I'm pretty curious how it worked out..

 

[IcemanSK]

Anybody else waiting for Laurentkd's response? I'm pretty curious how it worked out..

uh, me!:uhyeah:

 

[Laurentkd]

Hey guys! Just wanted to give everyone a chance to respond first!
So here goes:
First off, there might have been a misunderstanding... he is not yet ready to test for black (he is a blue belt) but he wanted to be put on a "fast track" to test next year (we hold an annual black belt test). Also, his thoughts that he is better than some seniors came about in a private conversation I had with him. I felt that he thought that way, but I really had to prod to get him to admit it out loud.... he is not an ego maniac (at least outwardly!)

So here is the story.....
He asked my instructor if he could test next year. My instructor's response was "Go get three letters of recommendation from 2nd Dans or higher and I will consider it". He came to me first (for those of you who don't know, I am a 4th Dan (almost 20 years training), but I still assist under my master teacher at his dojang- opening a second location is our goal, but I am not in any hurry). I wrote my letter recommending that he NOT test early. My reasons were the same as many of yours....
-martial arts is a marathon not a sprint
- patience is an important part of training
- doing the movements over and over again over a long period of time is what makes you good, not simply learning them to check them off a list. Understanding of technique comes with time and with time alone.
-I have never been impressed when I hear someone received their black belt quickly, I am impressed when I see a high quality student at whatever rank they hold. I also know that if a student progressed a little slower than average they probably value the art more than the belt (which is the whole point of training).
-I know many black belts who progressed at a normal rate but on the fast side who say that they wish they would have been a color belt longer. I have never met a black belt who say they wish they would have promoted faster.

I also told him that I see a lot of potential in him, and it is for that very reason that I want him to take his time and be really good when he tests for black, not just squeak by. I also told him that not only do I recommend this but I follow it myself. According to Kukkiwon I could have tested for 4th Dan at 21, but because I was focusing a lot on my college education (and teaching at TKD club at my university) I opted to wait until I was 24 before taking that next step because I wanted to step into that rank feeling confident of where I was and who I was.

A couple weeks after giving him the letter he asked to speak to me (he had been out of town). He said to me "If you don't think I shouldn't test, and Sahbonim doesn't think I should test then I guess I should follow that advice". I have no idea what their conversations was, except that he told my instructor I said no (which he already knew of course). I also don't know if he asked for or received any letters from any other Black Belts. He was obviously disappointed, but didn't seem angry or upset. He did say that he worries about being bored with training because there is only "so much to learn" before black belt. ( :rofl: I know, I wanted to laugh too, but he is just a blue belt guys, give him a break!). I told him that because I played such a role in his training that I felt extra responsible for him and not to fret, I would gladly give him advice on things to focus on and improve on while training! I told him that I hope he is the most awesome, rockin', over-qualified Black Belt to promote in our school. I also told him he was MORE than welcome to come in early to the kids classes and we will let him start assisting. He seemed to have his eyes more open when we left and I think he will end up ok.

I thought the way my instructor went about it was cool. Rather than just telling him "NO!" he wanted this young man to see it from the perspective of other people who have been where he is (for this reason I hope he did receive more letters... I'll have to ask around). I really think this made this student think more about what he was asking, and hopefully opened his eyes a little to realize that black belts of all ranks did not think it was a good idea. Sure we are excited to see him succeed, but a Black Belt is not something we hand over easily. Each of us has sweat, bleed, and cried to get to where we are... we expect no less from anyone else!

Thanks again for all your responses guys. I knew that I made the right decision for ME, but was just curious to get your all's opinion. And it always feel good to see other people agree with you

 

[Master Richardson]

Hello. I am new to the forum and I appreciate reading everyone's response. I hope to learn as well as offer, hopefully, some helpful suggestions and ideas.

To give my opinion on the topic of a student wanting to advance faster-

It's not uncommon practice for a student to be placed in an intensive accelerated program. In fact, it's one of the best ways to develop a good instructor. As a school owner, we have a difficult time hiring instructors because we are extremely selective in who we choose. In the martial arts, we can't just put an add in the paper and hire an instructor that can start teaching our curriculum, method, and philosophy.

It takes 4 years, in our program, to cultivate a 1st Dan. Now, what are the chances that 1st Dan has a desire to teach. To take it a step further than that, what are the chances that person is the person we are looking for to help our students learn and our school grow.

Once we find the right person, we may not wait 4 years until they're a Black Belt. We're going to intensify their training with a special program that accelerates them.

Was this enlightening at all?

Respectfully,

Duncan Richardson
Chief Master Instructor
Learn Taekwondo Online

 

[celtic_crippler]

OK, so here is the hypothetical:
And I would like responses from everyone, even if you aren't yet an instructor.

There is a student at your school who has been training for about a year. He is mid 20's and is athletic and picks techniques up easily. At a recent tournament he did very well, medaling in all events even against people who were two belts senior to him. He trains about 4 hours a week, however about 30% of the time it is less than that (and sometimes he goes a week without any training). He does take a 30-60 min private lesson about one or twice a month. Over all his training is going very well. He is not amazingly committed but he is there and he is pretty naturally gifted.
Now the question is:
He wants to test for 1st Dan in October of next year (after two years of training). Average for our school is 3-4 years. His reasoning is: He really wants to be an instructor, he feels he is really committed to his goal of black belt, and he thinks he is better than many students who are higher ranked than him (who will most likely test for Black Belt next year).

Note: The "non-hypothetical" situation has already been resolved and I am happy with the outcome.
I have tried very hard to give you just the facts. So what is your opinion?

As an instructor you should know if a student is producing at the level they need to be in order to test. If they're ready by October of next year...then they're ready. They either know the material and how to apply it or they do not. It really is as simple as that.

 

[Kacey]

Hello. I am new to the forum and I appreciate reading everyone's response. I hope to learn as well as offer, hopefully, some helpful suggestions and ideas.

To give my opinion on the topic of a student wanting to advance faster-

It's not uncommon practice for a student to be placed in an intensive accelerated program. In fact, it's one of the best ways to develop a good instructor. As a school owner, we have a difficult time hiring instructors because we are extremely selective in who we choose. In the martial arts, we can't just put an add in the paper and hire an instructor that can start teaching our curriculum, method, and philosophy.

It takes 4 years, in our program, to cultivate a 1st Dan. Now, what are the chances that 1st Dan has a desire to teach. To take it a step further than that, what are the chances that person is the person we are looking for to help our students learn and our school grow.

Once we find the right person, we may not wait 4 years until they're a Black Belt. We're going to intensify their training with a special program that accelerates them.

Was this enlightening at all?

Respectfully,

Duncan Richardson
Chief Master Instructor
Learn Taekwondo Online

I disagree. As I stated previously, being able to teach is not just about being able to do the techniques - it's about truly understanding them; otherwise you can't teach them properly. If someone truly wants to teach, they will still want to teach when they reach I Dan in due time; accelerating them simply because you want another instructor is doing that student, and those that student will teach, a disfavor in the long run.

 

[jim777]

This was asked & answered before I came by, but it seems to me that some students like this young man become the students that get their black belt and quit shortly thereafter. I think his wanting to instruct may be a sign that he is already growing bored with simply taking classes, and teaching might be a nice change for him. That's not a good sign :lol: Anyway, I would not accelerate his studies or fast track him, personally. I think he could stand to mature a bit, which certainly isn't a bad thing. I hope he stays at it long enough to get that Shodan and go from there.

jim

 

[YoungMan]

Let's say hypothetically he did test and was allowed to become an instructor. How good of an instructor would he really be? Being an instructor is much more than simply being able to demonstrate technique. How will he handle it when he comes across someone who doesn't learn as fast and struggles? Something tells me he's going to have this arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude of "well I can do it, why can't you?". This will lead to resentment and hard feelings, if the student even sticks around.
Make him wait and learn to develop patience.

 

[terryl965]

Let's say hypothetically he did test and was allowed to become an instructor. How good of an instructor would he really be? Being an instructor is much more than simply being able to demonstrate technique. How will he handle it when he comes across someone who doesn't learn as fast and struggles? Something tells me he's going to have this arrogant, holier-than-thou attitude of "well I can do it, why can't you?". This will lead to resentment and hard feelings, if the student even sticks around.
Make him wait and learn to develop patience.

very well said

 

[YoungMan]

It's been my experience that the best students or the best technicians don't always make the best instructors, because they never had to struggle and they find it hard to adapt when someone doesn't learn quickly.
I'll admit, I was a gifted student who was a bit cocky. It took me a while to learn how to deal with students who didn't learn quickly and not brush them off. That takes patience and maturity, something younger hotshots tend to be sorely lacking in.

 

[Master Richardson]

I disagree. As I stated previously, being able to teach is not just about being able to do the techniques - it's about truly understanding them; otherwise you can't teach them properly. If someone truly wants to teach, they will still want to teach when they reach I Dan in due time; accelerating them simply because you want another instructor is doing that student, and those that student will teach, a disfavor in the long run.

I'm slightly stunned by your disagreement. I'm not exactly sure what you're disagreeing with.

Did I say teaching was all about technique?
Did I say an accelerated program does not give them an understanding?
Did I say that we must get them to Black Belt before they no longer have the desire to teach?
Do you know what our accelerated program consists of in order to disagree with it?

I no longer subscribe to the philosophy that you must "put in your time" if you're going to be a good instructor. A good instructor comes from within. An accelerated program merely gives this person the tools and the "understanding" to become successful.

Our intensive training program consists of this (note- this is also to become an instructor):
4 hours of 1 on 1 training per week.
4 hours of mentoring per week.
6 hours as an assistant instructor (class helper), at the appropriate class level per week.
4 hours of group training classes per week.
3 hours of Sport Fusion conditioning per week.

And, this program only allows the student to progress at a rate 2 to 3 times as fast as his/her peers. So, it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 years to get your 1st Dan in this system. We modeled this accelerated system after what is currently being done in Korea, right now.

In order to receive a 1st Dan Kukkiwon Certificate, it takes 1 year minimum. The reason they have it so low is because Korean students are earning Black Belts everyday after 1 year of training. The only difference is that they don't train 2 to 3 times per week. They train very similar to the intensive model listed above.

Kacey, don't get me wrong, I did see your point. I just didn't like the fact that you disagreed with me without knowing anything about the 4 questions I listed above.

 

[Cirdan]

Yeah, cranking out blackbelts in one year will help your art about as much as the learn TKD online thingie you got in your sig.

 

[Twin Fist]

lots of interesting responses here, and well, i thought i would chime in, hope no one minds.

There are people out there, rare, but they are there, who just learn martial arts as fast as you can throw it at them.

Call it natural skill, whatever, they can do all the techniques, learn all the karats, etc.

What these people cant do faster is learn the "why's"

Why chamber this kick this way and not that way?

I know what I am getting from my students is alot of questions about "why"

I know that if it wasnt for my 24 years of training, I wouldnt be able to answer those questions very well.

To my mind, being able to explain the why's is FAR my important than being able to show the "how's"

 

[IcemanSK]

It seem to me that the conversation has gone from the spefic (this one student in the OP) to the general (what "should" or "should not" an instructor be).

The OP only stated that the student in questions desire was to someday be an instructor. This same student wasn't showing up to class consistently enough to make his desire for BB in the next year possible. Maybe, in time, this guy would make a good instructor. Right now he's not even bordering on being a good student.

As Twin Fist pointed out, thw "WHY" of techniques is as important to be able to convey as the "WHAT." Being able to teach has a great deal to do with understanding the ART, & nothing to do with how many trophies one has on the shelf.

 

[Master Richardson]

lots of interesting responses here, and well, i thought i would chime in, hope no one minds.

There are people out there, rare, but they are there, who just learn martial arts as fast as you can throw it at them.

Call it natural skill, whatever, they can do all the techniques, learn all the karats, etc.

What these people cant do faster is learn the "why's"

Why chamber this kick this way and not that way?

I know what I am getting from my students is alot of questions about "why"

I know that if it wasnt for my 24 years of training, I wouldnt be able to answer those questions very well.

To my mind, being able to explain the why's is FAR my important than being able to show the "how's"

Twin Fist,

Agreed! Since my previous post I may have given the impression that we are "cranking out Black Belts in 1 year", I would like to add to your well said post.

A traditional Taekwondo curriculum takes 47 years to complete. I am talking from 10th kup to 9th Dan. The "why's" of martial arts come with experience. The "why's" of politics, sports, business, etc. all come with experience, and the same goes for anything else.

Understanding why is also relative. Once you learn why something is, a new why appears. The moment you quit searching for why is the moment you stop learning. Traditional Taekwondo philosophy is that a student begins at 10th kup and ends at 10th Dan. Here is what our founders have established for us... a 10th Dan is supposed to be an honorable rank, given to those who have achieved 9th Dan and have died. It was said, and said well to me by Dr. Ken Min (founder of the USTU, now USAT- and 9th Dan), once you've achieved 10th Dan (passed away), then you've truly learned all you possibly can learn. He also added, as long as you're a 9th Dan, you're capable of stilling learning (or discovering the why).

Now, I understand that we all have different schools and not everyone will recognize our structure. We teach 57 classes every week, all ranging from 4 to 6 yrs old, 7 to 12, and 13 to Adult. In addition to that, we also have different levels of classes- Orientation (6 to 12 weeks), Block 1 (1 year), Block 2 (2 year students), Block 3 (3 year students, Block 4 (Black Belts), Block 5 (2nd Dan). On top of that, we have a Competition Class, a Black Belt Class, a Masters Class and a Leadership Team.

We do have an accelerated training program, but... only 2 students in 16 years of teaching over 2,000 students have ever gone through it. Even though they knew the curriculum, their knowledge of why was limited, which dicated the class they taught. They were allowed to teach Orientation classes, and that was it. Then with time, and as their understanding of why improved, they were permitted to teach Block 1, and so on.

I would also like to add that I respect everyone's comments, including the one against me and our online program. I have done everything I can in 30 years of practicing martial arts to help people grow and learn, and to learn from other's as well.

 

[matt.m]

I will keep this brief, I know suprising eh? Well the thing is this.....I had my white belts in Judo wait 6 months before testing for yellow. I teach them that rank is a color and it is "What's inside" that matters. Now the begin the endeavor for yellow to green tomorrow. I don't believe in quick promoting and neither do the other black belts. It isn't how quickly you can pick it up. It is about character, value system, integrity, and being a decent human being. Getting a belt to me is an afterthought. I know I am "Looking" at Black Belts in Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do. But I will get there when I do. I am a brown belt in both. I have to pass red, then test for dan. I also know that I will be up for 3rd dan in a year and a half or so in Judo. However, I belt up so I can help teach the hapkido class and I want to finish that dan belt. I belt up in Judo so my students can too.

 

[Cirdan]

We do have an accelerated training program, but... only 2 students in 16 years of teaching over 2,000 students have ever gone through it. Even though they knew the curriculum, their knowledge of why was limited, which dicated the class they taught. They were allowed to teach Orientation classes, and that was it. Then with time, and as their understanding of why improved, they were permitted to teach Block 1, and so on.

I would also like to add that I respect everyone's comments, including the one against me and our online program. I have done everything I can in 30 years of practicing martial arts to help people grow and learn, and to learn from other's as well.

If your accelerated program produces instructors with flawed understanding of the art why use it??

As for your efforts to help people grow and learn I think the following shows just how serious you are.

Every quarter, students will have the option to follow the criteria set forth by our Taekwondo Black Belt instructors and provide a video based on the material learned. If the student meets our standard for promotion, then they are granted a rank (kup).

Students testing for Black Belt will actually come into our training academy to receive intensive training prior to taking the Black Belt test. At that point, our board of Black Belts will tell you whether or not you’re cleared to come back in 6 months for the actual Black Belt exam.
One thing our academy will not do is diminish the quality and integrity of a Black Belt. Believe me, our board will know whether or not you’ve been diligent in your training. So when I said, “sort of, but not really.” I’m saying getting a Black Belt requires actually visiting our training academy to do our intensive weekend training 6 months prior to testing.

You have to actually BE in the dojang for 2 or 3 days to qualify for black belt. Well I am over ****ing whelmed!

 

[granfire]

I have not read all the posts.

her is my take on the original question:

Talent gets you far, but hard work with little talent gets you farther.

As to teaching. It is a commitment. To be an instructor you have to be there, not just when the mood strikes, or rather even when it's bad and you'd rather be home watching TV. You can't pick and chose who will be instructed, most schools do not have the luxury, the untalented kids are the ones paying the rent.

I don't see the Black Belt (especially not in the more traditional setting where it takes years to get one) as a requirement to teach (though to become certified in the ITA you have to be at least a 1st degree level2 BB, have logged in 250 hours of teaching and assisting, put together a small library in lesson plans as well as have attended a few seminars and tournaments. we are talking one year plus here, all while still taking classes, too), not to mention that we have minimum attendance requirements for rank grading....which averages out to 2-3 times a week for the 2 month cycle between tests....

But lower ranked individuals are also welcome to help out in class at the discretion of the head Instructor.

Soooo, to make it short, in the original scenario, I'd insist the prospective instructor to be at the center on a regular schedule, both working out as well as assisting, as condition to step up his quest for the Black Belt.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Being some what of an *** I might let him test but I might also make sure I never taught him some of the requirements for the test.

He needs to learn that being a dedicated student comes before being an instructor.