A "hypothetical" question for anyone

[Twin Fist]

While i understand Shadows point, it is unethical to let a studfent test that you KNOW doesnt know all the material.

but it is a fun thought.....LOL

 

[zDom]

OK, so here is the hypothetical:
And I would like responses from everyone, even if you aren't yet an instructor.

There is a student at your school who has been training for about a year. He is mid 20's and is athletic and picks techniques up easily. At a recent tournament he did very well, medaling in all events even against people who were two belts senior to him. He trains about 4 hours a week, however about 30% of the time it is less than that (and sometimes he goes a week without any training). He does take a 30-60 min private lesson about one or twice a month. Over all his training is going very well. He is not amazingly committed but he is there and he is pretty naturally gifted.
Now the question is:
He wants to test for 1st Dan in October of next year (after two years of training). Average for our school is 3-4 years. His reasoning is: He really wants to be an instructor, he feels he is really committed to his goal of black belt, and he thinks he is better than many students who are higher ranked than him (who will most likely test for Black Belt next year).

Note: The "non-hypothetical" situation has already been resolved and I am happy with the outcome.
I have tried very hard to give you just the facts. So what is your opinion?

I would absolutely NOT test him any sooner than any other student.

(And after TWO YEARS of training? You've got to be kidding ...)

It would not be to his benefit.

I, too, was talented student (if a bit older, mid-20s).

Did well against upper belts, even sparred on near-even terms with a lot of black belts.

I trained something like 12-16 hours per week. Hard. (Ask Kwanjang — he was there for most of those same hours )

It took me FOUR YEARS to get my TKD black belt — and I don't regret it. I learned ALL SORTS of things in that time period. My technique improved on a physical level and my understanding got deeper on a cognitive level.

Not to mention at this age there are maturity issues.

Are there not assistant instructor opportunities? Being an assistant instructor WOULD benefit him.

Handing him the "keys to the kingdom" so soon may ruin him.

 

[Twin Fist]

it all goes back to:
is the BB a measure of skill
is the BB a measure of teaching ability
is the BB a measure of both combined?

if the BB is just skill, test the guy
if the BB is teaching ability, dont test him
if the BB is both, dont test him

since the student in question voiced a desire to become an instructor, the answer is simple

 

[Flying Crane]

It's not uncommon practice for a student to be placed in an intensive accelerated program. In fact, it's one of the best ways to develop a good instructor.

honestly, I'm having difficulty reconciling these two sentences. An excelerated program, in my opinion, is most likely to produce poor instructors. If they don't take the time to really digest the material and understand it intellectually as well as physically, and develop an effective teaching style, the results just can't be good. These are things that take time, and you cannot cut corners or push it thru quickly and expect good results. Sure, you can increase the intensity of the training, but that is no guarantee. Students need time to digest the material, and you cannot shortcut that, even thru increased training.

If a student wishes to increase his intensity, I'd respect it more if he does it outside of class, on his own. That shows initiative and drive, and a real commitment to training.

As a school owner, we have a difficult time hiring instructors because we are extremely selective in who we choose.

why are you in a position to hire instructors? Sounds like you've considered outsourcing the teaching duties. Does the owner of the school (yourself?) not teach? Why run a school, only to hire out the teaching duties to others?

I can understand having some of your own students do some of the teaching if they have reached an appropriate level. But the whole idea of looking for instructors to hire is really kind of strange to me. Seems that it ought to happen naturally and organically thru the student body, as the school grows.

It takes 4 years, in our program, to cultivate a 1st Dan. Now, what are the chances that 1st Dan has a desire to teach. To take it a step further than that, what are the chances that person is the person we are looking for to help our students learn and our school grow.

It kind of looks like you have a very "business results" focus in your school. The desire to grow and expand and have personnel in place for it. Again, I don't feel this is the right way to approach it, but that's just my opinion. I think it ought to be a natural progression. As the school grows, some students will be ready to help with teaching duties, but the owner/head guy should still be doing the majority of it. If nobody is ready to help with it, then it doesn't grow. It doesn't make sense to me to try and force it to happen.

Once we find the right person, we may not wait 4 years until they're a Black Belt. We're going to intensify their training with a special program that accelerates them.

Then you get someone into a teaching position who probably isn't really ready for it. if I was looking for a school and I knew a teacher had gone thru this kind of program, I would probably look for a different school.

 

[MA-Caver]

What I'd really like to know is the answer to Carlin's question... "What if there were no hypothetical questions??"



sorry, couldn't resist when I saw the title of the thread...

 

[zDom]

Another thing to consider is,

martial arts is, in my opinion, more than just "learning" the technique;

it is also about TRAINING the technique with thousands of repetitions.

You could teach anybody the entire curriculum in a couple months, but it takes years of time on the mat to get the reps in so your BODY knows the technique, not just your brain.

And that was one of the many benefits I received by NOT having my program "accelerated." I got plenty of reps in — and I am still reaping the benefits of getting those reps in today.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello. I am new to the forum and I appreciate reading everyone's response. I hope to learn as well as offer, hopefully, some helpful suggestions and ideas.

To give my opinion on the topic of a student wanting to advance faster-

It's not uncommon practice for a student to be placed in an intensive accelerated program. In fact, it's one of the best ways to develop a good instructor. As a school owner, we have a difficult time hiring instructors because we are extremely selective in who we choose. In the martial arts, we can't just put an add in the paper and hire an instructor that can start teaching our curriculum, method, and philosophy.

It takes 4 years, in our program, to cultivate a 1st Dan. Now, what are the chances that 1st Dan has a desire to teach. To take it a step further than that, what are the chances that person is the person we are looking for to help our students learn and our school grow.

Once we find the right person, we may not wait 4 years until they're a Black Belt. We're going to intensify their training with a special program that accelerates them.

Was this enlightening at all?

Respectfully,

Duncan Richardson
Chief Master Instructor
Learn Taekwondo Online

I can see two sides to this. One, you've presented very well, which is that an exceptional student with the desire to teach presents a potential boon to the school.

The other is that when a student is promoted ahead of schedule, they sometimes receive a rank that they're not ready for. Expectations of them are higher because of their rank and sometimes, it goes to their head, which generally impedes their ability to instruct. Also, you will have some of the students who will grumble that another student was promoted ahead of them, no matter how deserving they are of the promotion.

Daniel

 

[matt.m]

I would absolutely NOT test him any sooner than any other student.

(And after TWO YEARS of training? You've got to be kidding ...)

It would not be to his benefit.

I, too, was talented student (if a bit older, mid-20s).

Did well against upper belts, even sparred on near-even terms with a lot of black belts.

I trained something like 12-16 hours per week. Hard. (Ask Kwanjang — he was there for most of those same hours )

It took me FOUR YEARS to get my TKD black belt — and I don't regret it. I learned ALL SORTS of things in that time period. My technique improved on a physical level and my understanding got deeper on a cognitive level.

Not to mention at this age there are maturity issues.

Are there not assistant instructor opportunities? Being an assistant instructor WOULD benefit him.

Handing him the "keys to the kingdom" so soon may ruin him.

The man is not kidding. If you are very talented in Moo Sul Kwan you may get to test for dan in 4 yr. the better average is 5. In hapkido it is longer. The thought process is this: 10,000 reps and you begin to understand the technique. I made it to the 2nd round in the olympic trials in Greco Roman Wrestling and Judo, however if I didn't have the 10.000 rep rule then I would not have gotten that far. I was injured, (Shoulder, Ribs, Knees, and Back.)

But to reiterate, Scott was exceptional as a gup rank. When he competes in sparring, a crowd gathers just to watch him. That says a lot for him. He got nicknamed "The Dominator" by my father when he was a white belt. It was at a tournament in 1992. I was standing right there, pop was impressed that a white belt was aggressive and not gun shy.

 

[miguksaram]

OK, so here is the hypothetical:
And I would like responses from everyone, even if you aren't yet an instructor.

There is a student at your school who has been training for about a year. He is mid 20's and is athletic and picks techniques up easily. At a recent tournament he did very well, medaling in all events even against people who were two belts senior to him. He trains about 4 hours a week, however about 30% of the time it is less than that (and sometimes he goes a week without any training). He does take a 30-60 min private lesson about one or twice a month. Over all his training is going very well. He is not amazingly committed but he is there and he is pretty naturally gifted.
Now the question is:
He wants to test for 1st Dan in October of next year (after two years of training). Average for our school is 3-4 years. His reasoning is: He really wants to be an instructor, he feels he is really committed to his goal of black belt, and he thinks he is better than many students who are higher ranked than him (who will most likely test for Black Belt next year).

Note: The "non-hypothetical" situation has already been resolved and I am happy with the outcome.
I have tried very hard to give you just the facts. So what is your opinion?

He contradicts himself. He says he is committed to his goal yet, is inconsistent in his training habits. Being naturally gifted does not exempt anyone from a process. Being an instructor is more than winning medals and doing good techniques. He may have the physical but it seems he is lacking the mental.

Keep him going through his training as you would any other student. Perhaps give him chances to help instruct other students or lead a class. That way you can observe his teaching skills and help him in that goal. A black belt doesn't automatically mean someone can teach. I have seen some purple and brown belts who made better instructors than a black belt.