A good read on Ryu. CMA questions

Flying Crane

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There may not be a clean equivalent. I suspect there are big cultural differences that make for a ryu in japan, but not in china.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I didn't really get that much from the link. A meandering treatise without an actual point as far as I could tell.

I don't get too excited about terms like ryu and ryuha. Those words are too often, in my opinion, used to bludgeon others.

I train in a particular style, which has ryu as part of its name. That's all. What does it mean? To me, it simply denotes the 'style'.

Having said that, I've already had too many people in my life insist that I have it all wrong, it doesn't mean that it means this, blah blah blah. To be clear, I don't care.
 
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TSDTexan

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There may not be a clean equivalent. I suspect there are big cultural differences that make for a ryu in japan, but not in china.
Thank you

How about a rough and dirty one?
 
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TSDTexan

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I didn't really get that much from the link. A meandering treatise without an actual point as far as I could tell.

I don't get too excited about terms like ryu and ryuha. Those words are too often, in my opinion, used to bludgeon others.

I train in a particular style, which has ryu as part of its name. That's all. What does it mean? To me, it simply denotes the 'style'.

Having said that, I've already had too many people in my life insist that I have it all wrong, it doesn't mean that it means this, blah blah blah. To be clear, I don't care.


download (1).jpg
 

Bill Mattocks

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You may not have seen some of the scolding that takes place around here. I get tired of it. Ryu is a word. I am sure it has many meanings to many different people, but the pouncetrifles would have it mean one thing and one thing only, and they are the guardians of that one definition. That's fine, but it's not something I spend much time worrying about. That's all.
 

Flying Crane

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Thank you

How about a rough and dirty one?
I'm not an expert on either culture, but perhaps in Chinese systems it would be the Lineage Holder and the students who are disciples, vs. just a student. But there can be a lot of disagreement, and not everyone accepts this or that person as the rightful lineage holder, and there are often many splits in the lineage, each with a lineage holder, of head of lineage. So it's messy, at best.
 
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TSDTexan

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You may not have seen some of the scolding that takes place around here. I get tired of it. Ryu is a word. I am sure it has many meanings to many different people, but the pouncetrifles would have it mean one thing and one thing only, and they are the guardians of that one definition. That's fine, but it's not something I spend much time worrying about. That's all.

I get it.
The reason I asked this question in the first place, is I am trying to research and work out something that I came across while I was researching something else.

The meta level... this is about nihanchi kata... and the many permutations. And what each variation can teach.

On the lower level...
As I was referencing something from a book called
" Tang Soo Do, the ultimate guide to the Korean martial art " (written by Grand
Master Kang Uk Lee.)
In it he asserts that:
"Naihanji Hyung was devised 950 years ago, during the era of the Song Dynasty, by the founder of the Kang Woo Ryu school of martial arts.

Although the exact origin of this form is unknown, the form is thought to have originated in the Ha Buk region of Northern China during the Song Dynasty (circa 1100).

The form comes from the Kang Yu Ryu (hard and soft style) system. It is speculated that it may have been created by Jang Song Kye, the founder of this system.

My dilemma is this... I am reading this in English. It may have been written in English, but it was probably written in Korean and translated afterwards.

At any rate, the Korean Kang UK Lee's book used the word Ryu... which I know is not the correct word. But what Word or phrase in Korean was he using for the expression.

Because if I can figure it out, I can chase down another nihanchi trail.


At present I have two stories... one story says ancestral Nihanchi is southern Chinese. The Koreans, are saying it's northern.

I was talking with Dan Djurdevik recently about nihanchi kata origins...so I am trying to flesh out a thesis to share with him
 
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Xue Sheng

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What is a 'Ryu'?

Kwoon is a school, but after reading link what Chinese word best represents a concept like Ryu?

Could be wrong, but if we are talking Ryu as this 流 then it appears the Chinese equivalent is this 流程 Liúchéng which means 'process' And somewhere in the deep dark areas of my memory I seem to remember a discussion between a Japanese martial artist and a Chinese martial artist at some seminar this many many years ago. But as Crane said, culturally speaking I do not think it has the same usage of meaning in China. Although one could argue that a style is a process.
 
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TSDTexan

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Could be wrong, but if we are talking Ryu as this 流 then it appears the Chinese equivalent is this 流程 Liúchéng which means 'process' And somewhere in the deep dark areas of my memory I seem to remember a discussion between a Japanese martial artist and a Chinese martial artist at some seminar this many many years ago. But as Crane said, culturally speaking I do not think it has the same usage of meaning in China. Although one could argue that a style is a process.
Screenshot_20170509-190149.jpg


to flow / to disseminate / to circulate or spread/ to move or drift / to degenerate / to banish or send into exile / stream of water or sth resembling one / class, rate or grade

Per the mdbg.com Chinese English dictionary.

Yes, I agree that cultural differences between Japanese thought and Chinese thought probably means there is no static equivalent.

I suspect the northern origin of Naihanji Hyung is a very remote longshot. But other than Korean nationalism in TSD doctrine and dogma under the MDK wanting an historical revision of events... I can't reject their account of hand.
 

clfsean

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Naihanchi/Tekki/Naifanchin ... look south to Fujian. Northern CMA styles don't really move like that. Southern Shorthand styles however do resemble those kata. OMA, given their roots in Southern China, are a pretty dead shot to link to something along that line.

TSD ... I've watched all the videos I can, including their version of Tam Toi and a set named Long Fist. I honestly, don't see much CMA in TSD except for Tam Toi choreography that brushes resemblance to CMA, but without core (obviously).

I like TSD as it is. Good stuff there!
 
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TSDTexan

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Naihanchi/Tekki/Naifanchin ... look south to Fujian. Northern CMA styles don't really move like that. Southern Shorthand styles however do resemble those kata. OMA, given their roots in Southern China, are a pretty dead shot to link to something along that line.

TSD ... I've watched all the videos I can, including their version of Tam Toi and a set named Long Fist. I honestly, don't see much CMA in TSD except for Tam Toi choreography that brushes resemblance to CMA, but without core (obviously).

I like TSD as it is. Good stuff there!

That's my gut too. But... one story is a lot of southern came from Hakka, which came south.
 

clfsean

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That's my gut too. But... one story is a lot of southern came from Hakka, which came south.

Oh indeed. Hakka is IMHO the granddaddy of Shorthand. But the term "Hakka" doesn't necessarily mean Northern. It just means visiting families. They were largely middle China, the central region ... Hubei, Henan, Shaanxi ... the area in & around the Yellow River. If you look at orthodox Songshan Shaolin, there's a resemblance to Hakka stuff that is undeniable. Not saying they're the same or even related, but given the age & development of the Hakka arts, coming from the Middle Kingdom area and orthodox Shaolin you can see where/how the Middle Chinese arts share a common midsized frame.
 
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TSDTexan

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Oh indeed. Hakka is IMHO the granddaddy of Shorthand. But the term "Hakka" doesn't necessarily mean Northern. It just means visiting families. They were largely middle China, the central region ... Hubei, Henan, Shaanxi ... the area in & around the Yellow River. If you look at orthodox Songshan Shaolin, there's a resemblance to Hakka stuff that is undeniable. Not saying they're the same or even related, but given the age & development of the Hakka arts, coming from the Middle Kingdom area and orthodox Shaolin you can see where/how the Middle Chinese arts share a common midsized frame.

Some say Jang Song Kye was in Hubei !
 
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clfsean

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Some say Jang Song Kye Jang Song Kye was in Hubei !

Eh ... I can't speak to that. I'm really not up on Korean/Chinese medieval period exchanges and such.

There's a lot of room to discuss this idea on multiple sides. But as a long time TCMA practitioner & former KMA (MDK TKD) practitioner, I'm not catching the Northern Chinese connection there. Southern ... that's a bit different, but that's a whole other set of characters & discussions. :eek:
 

Xue Sheng

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View attachment 20694

to flow / to disseminate / to circulate or spread/ to move or drift / to degenerate / to banish or send into exile / stream of water or sth resembling one / class, rate or grade

Per the mdbg.com Chinese English dictionary.

Yes, I agree that cultural differences between Japanese thought and Chinese thought probably means there is no static equivalent.

I suspect the northern origin of Naihanji Hyung is a very remote longshot. But other than Korean nationalism in TSD doctrine and dogma under the MDK wanting an historical revision of events... I can't reject their account of hand.

Interesting thing here, it might be flow, or it might not, it could also be Liúchéng. Japanese usage of Chinese characters do not necessarily have the same meaning or translation between those cultures/counties.
 

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