9/11--Was it an inside job?

[Archangel M]

Lies to cover bureaucratic asses because they were caught asleep at the switch is different in scope and scale compared to "They hid the presence of thermite" which implies the "controlled demo" argument once again. Of course the comission was probably lied to, we are talking about politicians and political appointees here. It's a false dichotomy to imply complicity/conspiracy simply because some bureaucrat lied to cover his *** or point the finger at another gvt org.

 

[Sukerkin]

Good point, Angel.

I do concur that 'conspiracy' to cover negligence is apt to appear to the investigative eye as indistinguishable from 'conspiracy' to commit (or permit) an act of terrorism on American soil.

Simply put, lies breed mistrust and, where there is no 'incontrovertible' truth to see and, therefore, counteract the lies, alternative explanations are apt to flourish.

I admit that certain aspects of the official line have always made me uneasy tho', for they are points that are not augmentative to simple "*** covering" for a mistake e.g. the rapidity with which debris was cleared and interprative evidence destroyed (such as shipping the beams of the WTC to India (IIRC) for re-smelting).

 

[Makalakumu]

Lies to cover bureaucratic asses because they were caught asleep at the switch is different in scope and scale compared to "They hid the presence of thermite" which implies the "controlled demo" argument once again. Of course the comission was probably lied to, we are talking about politicians and political appointees here. It's a false dichotomy to imply complicity/conspiracy simply because some bureaucrat lied to cover his *** or point the finger at another gvt org.

I agree. I guess my main objection now, so long after the event, is that so many people are claiming a level of certainty that just isn't there. No matter what you believe might have happened, no one really knows the full picture of what actually did. I say let's stop pretending that we are certain about this. There is plenty of reason to doubt many of the main points in the narrative of the story.

 

[elder999]

I agree. I guess my main objection now, so long after the event, is that so many people are claiming a level of certainty that just isn't there. No matter what you believe might have happened, no one really knows the full picture of what actually did. I say let's stop pretending that we are certain about this. There is plenty of reason to doubt many of the main points in the narrative of the story.

Here's the full picture:

Looked an awful lot like a goddam plane to me, ten years later and it still looks like a goddam plane. :angry:

 

[Big Don]

Here's the full picture:

Looked an awful lot like a goddam plane to me, ten years later and it still looks like a goddam plane. :angry:

Come on Elder, you know fire doesn't melt steel, don't you? [/Rosie o'fatness]

 

[Big Don]

There is plenty of reason to doubt many of the main points in the narrative of the story.

Really?

 

[Makalakumu]

Here's the full picture:

Looked an awful lot like a goddamn plane to me, ten years later and it still looks like a goddamn plane. :angry:

Thank you Captain Obvious...LOL!

 

[Makalakumu]

Really?

No, not really. I was just kidding. :seppuku:

 

[Big Don]

No, not really. I was just kidding.

I had hoped you were.

 

[elder999]

Thank you Captain Obvious...LOL!

And, sorry-irreverent as I am, ten years later and I still have a goddam hard time with this:



and I'm not about to goddam "LOL" over it, and goddam anybody who does. :angry:

Every "truther" spits on the truth, that was there for all of us to see that day, and diminishes that truth, and minimizes the real lessons that should be learned from that day to focus on-what?

 

[elder999]

On the other hand, I did get a chuckle out of the ad at the top of this page:



..sorry, though, John. As I've posted elsewhere, I lost a few friends that day.........

 

[Sensei Payne]

Listen, no one here is doubting the actual happenings at the WTC.

People died. It happened..and it was a very sad day.



WE "truthers" Are NOT spitting on those who lost there lives that day... We are seeking JUSTICE and CLOSURE for the families.

We want Truth, we want the REAL story.

BUt don't paint us up being disrespectful and in denial...we well know what happened...we just want to know why.

 

[CanuckMA]

Listen, no one here is doubting the actual happenings at the WTC.

People died. It happened..and it was a very sad day.



WE "truthers" Are NOT spitting on those who lost there lives that day... We are seeking JUSTICE and CLOSURE for the families.

We want Truth, we want the REAL story.

BUt don't paint us up being disrespectful and in denial...we well know what happened...we just want to know why.

And of course that HAS to fit your version of the events.

Because the one that has 19 terrorists doinf the deed simply cannot be true.

 

[elder999]

Listen, no one here is doubting the actual happenings at the WTC.

People died. It happened..and it was a very sad day.



WE "truthers" Are NOT spitting on those who lost there lives that day... We are seeking JUSTICE and CLOSURE for the families.

We want Truth, we want the REAL story.

BUt don't paint us up being disrespectful and in denial...we well know what happened...we just want to know why.

You are being disrespectful. You are in denial. By even going anywhere near the words "controlled demolition" you are doubting the actual happenings.

As for why it happened, you can look at this thread:

The first question you should ask about your enemy is why he is your enemy in the first place.
—Joseph Sobran, writing about Sept. 11th just hours after it happened.


In 1973 I went to boarding school fresh from a suburban home in Peekskill, N.Y. Up to that time the only foreigners I’d ever met were my family’s friends from Portugal and Canada, my best friend’s parents from Holland, my friend’s Italian relatives, and a few Japanese and Korean martial arts teachers, but almost none of them count because by the time I met them they were all naturalized citizens and not foreigners anymore. In school I’d also met some Puerto Ricans, but they weren’t foreigners at all because as the song says, “Nobody knows in America, Puerto Rico’s in America.”

The first real foreigners I met were some Middle Eastern students when I was a freshman. They came from a place I’d never even heard of before. Just a a little more than a decade earlier, in June of 1961, their country had achieved its independence from the same country we’d won our independence from—Britain. We did it with guns. Theirs was peaceful.

I’d been invited into a dorm room to participate in a political discussion. The Kuwatis were nice, well-dressed, and congenial. They weren’t poor, disenfranchised camel drivers. They came from well-to-do families rich from oil revenues. The conversation, when I got there, was why they didn’t like Americans. The one who spoke the most made it very clear: he didn’t hate Jews, he hated Iraelis; he didn’t hate us, but he hated the American government. He and his friends hated us because we were over there and because we were meddling in their affairs.

They said Europeans and Americans had moved in there and taken the best land and had moved the Arabs at gunpoint into camps where they were now refugees. I didn’t believe it for a minute. I knew our country would never stand for that. He likened what we had allowed happen to the Palestinians to what the U.S. did to the Indians, which is why I'd been brought into the discussion. They took the Indians land and expected them to do nothing about it. Of course, from the time Europeans first set foot in the New World, there were four centuries of Indian wars. I felt uncomfortable when he pointed this out, but I didn’t give in. I continued to argue with them. This was more than 30 years ago.

Over the past five years we kept hearing the question, in reference to 9/11: ” why? why? why did they do it?” The official line is that they did it because they hate our freedoms and our democracy. Mortimer Zuckerman, Editor-in-Chief of U.S. News and World Report, refers to “...the so-called root causes of terrorism, alleged to be poverty and despair.” This, despite the fact that many of the hijackers came from middle class or wealthy families—and even Osama bin Laden is himself a multimillionaire.

While we’re trying to figure out why they did it, is anyone listening to what they’re saying? They keep telling us why again and again, but no matter how many times they say it, we keep trying to guess what their real reasons were.

Here’s what they have been saying since at least 1973 when I started boarding school: They did it because we support Israel, because we meddle in their affairs, and because we’re over there. (It may have been Ken Burn’s series on the Civil War where I heard this, but a Yankee soldier is reputed to have asked of a Rebel soldier, “You don’t own any slaves, so why are you fighting?” The rebel’s reply: “Because you’re down here.” Sound familiar?)

Even our so-called friends are trying to tell us why they did it, but when they do, we rebuke them. Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal tried to give $10 million to New York, but because he indicated that part of the reason the terrorists attacked us was because of our policies toward the Palestinians and suggested we change them, Mayor Giuliani of New York City turned the gift down saying, “I entirely reject that statement. There is no moral equivalent for this [terrorist] act. There is no justification for it. The people who did it lost any right to ask for justification for it when they slaughtered 4,000 or 5,000 innocent people.”

Of course, the prince wasn’t justifying the act. As a friend, who is willing to help out, he was telling us the reasons the terrorists did it, but for saying something we don’t want to hear, we figuratively slapped him in the face.

There is not one politician in this country who is publicly willing to entertain the notion that the act was retribution for our foreign policy (though I wonder what they say privately). In fact, any suggestion the attacks came about as a response to U.S. policy is met with immediate censure that borders on censorship. It’s considered unpatriotic to suggest that perhaps the United States government helped bring this on, but the rest of the world knows this is true.

 

[Sensei Payne]

And of course that HAS to fit your version of the events.

Because the one that has 19 terrorists doinf the deed simply cannot be true.

I never said Terrorists didn't do it...thats all splitting hairs. Why it had to happen..who on our side of the fence knew it was going to happen...why are they covering up WTC7, "Pull it" situation. The list goes on and on.

FYI, you are aware that the CIA DOES in fact set up Terrorist groups, recruit and set up plots and the say "arrest" them in a supposed sting operation...they do it with American Milita groups today as well.

 

[elder999]

I never said Terrorists didn't do it...thats all splitting hairs. Why it had to happen..who on our side of the fence knew it was going to happen...why are they covering up WTC7, "Pull it" situation. The list goes on and on.

"The list" is largely b.s., concocted by people who have no real understanding of the mechanics-they are either too specialized, or completely out of their depth. WTC7 is a perfect example of this.

As for how much our government knew, etc. Well, nearly 70 years later, people continue to speculate about how much Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbor beforehand, and whether or not he permitted it to take place and get us into the war. Fact is, you don't get to know what "the government knew," not about Pearl Harbor, or Roswell, or the JFK assasination, or the RFK assasination,or the MLK assassination, or the Malcom X assassination, or about Bigfoot and the Loch Ness Monster, for that matter.

You just get to waste air, Bob's bandwidth, and my patience by babbling on and on about it.

 

[Sensei Payne]

You just get to waste air, Bob's bandwidth, and my patience by babbling on and on about it.

Keeping the matter closed is whats disrespectful. The families and the dead deserve more than what petty story that you and our government has fooled themselves into beliving.

Don't try and demonize those who are after the truth..instead of rolling over and taking the spoon fed story the government wants to give you.

 

[CanuckMA]

Keeping the matter closed is whats disrespectful. The families and the dead deserve more than what petty story that you and our government has fooled themselves into beliving.

Don't try and demonize those who are after the truth..instead of rolling over and taking the spoon fed story the government wants to give you.

But why can't the truth be what the investigation came with.

The problem with 'truthers' is that they are coonvinced that only their version of events can possibly be the truth.

 

[Big Don]

I never said Terrorists didn't do it...thats all splitting hairs.

No, you implied the US government was complicit, which, IMO is worse. If you were one of those loons who claimed they were Extra terrestrial aliens, you'd be nuts, just not malevolently so.

Why it had to happen..who on our side of the fence knew it was going to happen...why are they covering up WTC7, "Pull it" situation. The list goes on and on.FYI, you are aware that the CIA DOES in fact set up Terrorist groups, recruit and set up plots and the say "arrest" them in a supposed sting operation...they do it with American Milita groups today as well.

First, kindly refer to this BRILLIANT post.

Apparently you did not. Nor did you read this, from this thread...

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

FYI, you are aware that the CIA DOES in fact set up Terrorist groups, recruit and set up plots and the say "arrest" them in a supposed sting operation...they do it with American Milita groups today as well.

Yep, sure they do. They assisinated Santa Claus in 95 and the Green Berets have been delivering gifts the past 16 years so no one will suspect the TRUTH...

In conclusion, Oh for ****'s sake, not this stupid **** AGAIN.

​

 

[Sensei Payne]

Again, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Alls I ask for is further investigation by an independent group.

Putting all conjecture aside, all theories, etc

What happened on 9/11 was horrible, and if the 9/11 Commission report is 100% correct then the Government has nothing at all to fear by having a third party look into it deeper.

There are plenty of non profit groups out there ready to do hard research on the events.

So really the question is, why not have someone else take a look? Get more info on the situation, more points for view...more in depth research. It won't hurt anybody will it? If anything it will give more closure to the families. The only people it would possibly hurt are those who are living the lie of the commission report and the NIST reports(Government run research company, that researched why the towers fell at free fall speeds.)

If we catch them in a lie, then we have found our culprits...and if I and other "Truthers" are wrong, what happens.....Nothing at all, except maybe we will shut up about it.