9/11--Was it an inside job?

[elder999]

What is the ultimately the deciding factor in all cases, in all lists?.

.

.

On the 'droid, now, so:pancake bunny.

It's just a matter of scale. Look at the scale of atrocity we've perpetrated before and after 9/11 and ask yourself if people could let it happen or even plan it. That's all I meant. I'm not some supermind.

Just think about it and merge the scales of what has happened. It's not that big of a jump ahead to LIHOP or MIHOP.

It is a big jump. We're not meant to know such things. The people who know of them-if they exist- will never speak of them, never be subject to any investigation, independent or otherwise, never do anything but go on about their business until they reach a ripe old age and die, or die otherwise going on about their business. That's the nature of such things-we'll never know if elements in government let it happen on purpose, which is a truly possible scenario, or were just completely clueless. In my opinion, the years between the first WTC bombing in 1993 and 9/11 indicate that they were just completely clueless, but I'm just some guy on the internet.

Here, though, you like conspiracies. Google "George H.W. Bush, Kennedy assassination" :

9,400,000 results for
george h w bush kennedy assassination

there are some interesting facts there, but not much in the way of truth, and that's the nature of these things: you and I aren't meant to know, and so we won't, and those that do know never, ever, ever speak of it again, and live to a ripe old age of jumping out of planes, driving fast boats, and, basically, waiting to die and take their secrets with them.

 

[Archangel M]

[yt]VdRz2oTjCog[/yt]

It's my opinion that some people are more prone to this conspiracy stuff than others. Some psychologists explain it thus:

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/05/26/the-inner-worlds-of-conspiracy-believers

“Arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists tell you more about the believer than about the event,” Goertzel says.

Swami’s finding that 9/11 conspiracy believers frequently spoke with likeminded individuals supports the notion that “conspiracy thinkers constitute a community of believers,” remarks historian Robert Goldberg of the University of Utah in Salt Lake City. Goldberg has studied various conspiracy theories in the United States.

Conspiracy thinkers share an optimistic conviction that they can find “the truth,” spread it to the masses and foster social change, Goldberg asserts.

 

[Makalakumu]

Riddle me this, those of you who believe the government is benign or even benevolent. How many megadeaths was one 9/11? That is the scale that people are arguing against.

Oh, and I agree that we'll never know. We aren't meant to. I am a schlub in the eyes of the controllers. Speaking of megadeaths, ever wonder how many plans the government has that include causing your own death for the greater good?

And, btw, I'll handle my paranoia if you handle your own psychosis. LOL! That's worth a laugh isn't it?

 

[elder999]

"...choose between two admittedly regrettable, but nevertheless, distinguishable post-war environments: one where you've got 20 million people killed, and the other where you

This was the rationale behind "StarWars," the Srategic Defense Initiative-a move away from Mutually Assured Destruction towards OFF, that's Opportunity For First strike, and part of what bankrupted the old Soviet Union, when we convinced them that we were there.

It's also part and parcel of the kind of long term thinking that goes into things like Obamacare: health care for the masses, or boondoggle for the insurance companies?

I visited a slaughter house once, where they were killing sheep and pigs. The pigs just marched right into this machine that decapitates them, one after the other. The pigs, on the other hand, once they saw the first pig decapitated, began to squeal and crowded away from the ramp that led to the machine. In a world of sheep, I've become a pig, who is doing his best to stay out of the machine-or, at least, convince it of his cooperation. That's about all any of us can hope for, really....I mean, 9/11 was about 0.03% of a megadeath, wasn't it? Until we're hit with a superplague or worldwide famine, I like those odds, as long as I can keep my head down, and stay out of tall buildings......

 

[Archangel M]

Riddle me this, those of you who believe the government is benign or even benevolent. How many megadeaths was one 9/11?

A term coined by a RAND egghead and used in a Kubrick movie? That's your evidence??

 

[Makalakumu]

A term coined by a RAND egghead and used in a Kubrick movie? That's your evidence??

LOL! I think you missed the point. Megadeth is the SOLUTION!!!

:bangahead:

 

[Sensei Payne]

All other evidence of that very day aside.

After 9/11 there was a chain reaction...

a chain reaction that has cost us many of our freedoms...

The patriot act, Nude body scanners, TSA pat downs, The Constant state of fear, the war in Iraq/afganistan/Lybia, the failed search for WMDs

The Government has exibited and displayed more control and has moved toward more of a police state since the events on 9/11, and 9/11 is how the justifty walking all over the constitution.

Is this what our Founding Fathers had in mind for us...I think not.

History shows that total control is the beginning of the end for a government, getting "To big for there own britches" seems to be a steady trend in history.(IE THe Romans, The Germans, the English,etc)

The problem is, we are now the American Empire, and no longer the United States, and that American Empire is run by Corperations. Since 9/11, those Corperations have flexed that muscle through Congress and Two Horrible Presidents.

 

[elder999]

The Government has exibited and displayed more control and has moved toward more of a police state since the events on 9/11, and 9/11 is how the justifty walking all over the constitution.

Is this what our Founding Fathers had in mind for us...I think not.

We were moving towArds a police state before 9/11.

The problem is, we are now the American Empire, and no longer the United States, and that American Empire is run by Corperations. Since 9/11, those Corperations have flexed that muscle through Congress and Two Horrible Presidents.

The argument could be made that we have been an empire since Roosevelt was president-Teddy, not FDR-and yes, those corporations are running us-it's inevitable. In our lifetimes, total body scanning will be in more than just airports-it's also inevitable.

Screaming that something is unconstitutional, when it pretty much isn't, isn't going to make it go away. Like Obama's birth certificate, the body scanners and groping are a distraction from the real issues. We could do a lot more for security by implementing el Al's security measures. Many of them, though, are ,arguably unconsitutional.

The same with 9/11-the commonly accepted narrative of those events is the whole story, even if it isn't. Belief that those events occurred otherwise is, likewise, a distraction. While those events are used to justify so much, something else would have been used, inevitably, to justify those things. "9/11, the real story" is a distraction from the questions you should really be asking.

 

[jks9199]

With the volume of US air travel, El Al's security measures are impractical. They are manpower intensive, training intensive, and very time consuming. We simply cannot do it with the volume of travel. It'd be roughly the same as simply trying to have everyone riding a bus or subway pass through a magnetometer. In theory, it can be done. In reality? Nope.

 

[CanuckMA]

With the volume of US air travel, El Al's security measures are impractical. They are manpower intensive, training intensive, and very time consuming. We simply cannot do it with the volume of travel. It'd be roughly the same as simply trying to have everyone riding a bus or subway pass through a magnetometer. In theory, it can be done. In reality? Nope.

Have you ever been through Ben Gurion?

They are less intrusive than at US airports. They are training intensive. They rely on just thnn chep rent-a-cops.

But they are scalable. It's not a matter of more manpower, it's a atter of better manpower.

 

[Big Don]

El Al, of course realizes and operates on the idea that the main threat to airliners are Islamic Terrorists. The US is too hamstrung by political correctness to admit that, let alone operate on that premise.

 

[CanuckMA]

El Al operates on the premise that anyone can be a terrorist. I get questioned regularly as well. They may skew towards a profile, but I certainly won't get a pass because I'm Orthodox. And the security is not just at a checkpoint. They observe behaviour everywhere in the airport.

 

[Tez3]

El Al, of course realizes and operates on the idea that the main threat to airliners are Islamic Terrorists. The US is too hamstrung by political correctness to admit that, let alone operate on that premise.

Underestimating your enemies is never a good thing and assuming that an Islamic terrorist is going to walk up to an aircraft dressed in such a way that screams suicide bomber is ridiculous. They may as well carry a big sign that says 'I am an Islamic terrorist'.

During the height of the Troubles in Northern Ireland the IRA took to recruiting English students who were sympathetic to the IRA's cause but however had no history of support or connections to them. This made them hard to find and track down. Profiling was of no use in these cases.

Canuck is correct, El Al assume anyone can be a terrorist, they do have a few nuts who succumb to things like Jerusalem syndrome to deal with etc so need to watch out for more than Islamic dangers. There are also some criminal elements to watch out for which while they may be of no direct danger to the flight may not be welcome on board generally. Isreal survives by taking no chances and being ever vigilant, the day they start taking things for granted ie the only terrorists are going to be looking like terrorists then things will turn bad very quickly.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Screaming that something is unconstitutional, when it pretty much isn't, isn't going to make it go away. Like Obama's birth certificate, the body scanners and groping are a distraction from the real issues. We could do a lot more for security by implementing el Al's security measures. Many of them, though, are ,arguably unconsitutional.

The same with 9/11-the commonly accepted narrative of those events is the whole story, even if it isn't. Belief that those events occurred otherwise is, likewise, a distraction. While those events are used to justify so much, something else would have been used, inevitably, to justify those things. "9/11, the real story" is a distraction from the questions you should really be asking.

Standing up, when something is unconstitutional, is always the right thing to do...something isn't "Pretty much" unconstitutional..it either is or it isn't...and the events that I described following 9/11 most positively are.

The commonly accepted narrative, truely can't be the WHOLE story, or we wouldn't be having this convorsation today. So many people around the world see the holes in the "accepted" story.

The reason why we want to point out all the issues with 9/11, the real story, is because if you can unravel part of the story..you can trace it all the way back, and show the tyrants for what they are.

 

[elder999]

Standing up, when something is unconstitutional, is always the right thing to do...something isn't "Pretty much" unconstitutional..it either is or it isn't...and the events that I described following 9/11 most positively are.

Some of the events following 9/11 were unconstitutioal. The searches that occur in airports are not.

The commonly accepted narrative, truely can't be the WHOLE story, or we wouldn't be having this convorsation today. So many people around the world see the holes in the "accepted" story.

The same could be said in reference to conversations about the Loch Ness monster, the Chupacabra, Bigfoot, UFOs, the secret Nazi base in Anarctica, the Illuminati, whether or not FDR was aware of the Japanese plan to attack Pearl Harbor, the Kennedy assassinaition, the faked moon landing,the secret Nazi base on the moon, the death of Princess Diana, and our secret reptilian overlords. All conversations people are having, all wldley disproven conspiracy theories, supported by the merest shred of facts.

The reason why we want to point out all the issues with 9/11, the real story, is because if you can unravel part of the story..you can trace it all the way back, and show the tyrants for what they are.

Simply not going to happen. The story we've got is the real story, no matter how much doubt there is-even it's not the whole story, it's the only one we're ever going to have.There will be no "unraveling," no revelations, no smoking gun. In the future, individuals will come forward saying they have parts of the "real story," that Paul WOlfowitz met with Osama Bin Laden in Marakesh, or that the head of Pakitani intelligence was staying in the White House in the days before 9/11. Some of them will be true but coincidental and irrelevant, some of them ill be complete fabrications-none of them will change the story.

What youshoud be focusng on instead of this distraction, is the constitutionality of the USA PATRIOT Act. The coming infringments on the 2nd Amendment. The role of the U.N. in U.S. law. The corporate takeover of our food and water supplies. Corporate control over everything we put into our bodies-corporate contol of all medicine. Al things that the legal groundwork is being set for, or has already taken place-quietly and legally.

Instead, you'l go on about 9/11 being an inside job, while your freedoms are legally whittled away....

 

[jks9199]

The thing about 9/11 is that we want a better explanation than a group of "3rd World terrorists" pulled one over on the "mightiest nation on the planet." We want a "truth" that reinforces our view that the US is the strongest, best nation on the planet, and has no need to fear anyone else. The only people strong enough to take us down are "evil us."

Sorry. The truth is that Al Queda and Osama Bin Laden aren't "3rd World Terrorists." They're just plain terrorists, educated in more than few cases by our own military, intellegence and colleges, trained and hardened by decades of war. They think long term, and they plan meticulously. 9/11 wasn't the result of a few weeks of planning, or a "hey, let's try this." I'd have to look up -- but some of the perpetrators had been in the US for years. They had studied and planned, working around our vulnerabilities. They exploited our ignorance, our complacency, and our reactions to prior hijackings.

That's important to understand. Until 9/11, the routine response to a hijacking situation was to sit tight, and wait for the plane to land. Then, the options were either wait 'em out or storm the plane. The hijackers on 9/11 exploited that: They took control of the planes, and on 3 out of the 4, the passengers didn't expect anything but the usual scenario.

We all aided and abetted the terrorists. We assumed that "terrorism happened somewhere else", to other people. We carefully avoided labeling terrorist activities that had happened here as terrorism. We refused to acknowledge how terrorists work, and we still refuse to acknowledge that we DO NOT make friends in a lot of the ways we try to help other countries and people. Especially when we stomp roughshod over their cultures and try to make them like us. Or when we assume that we're the best and our ways are the best. (Just look at some of the heat on this forum across national lines... And that's with fairly reasonable folks.)

There was a conspiracy involved in 9/11; in fact, I'll say there were two. The first, clearly and obviously, was the terrorists. That one involved at least 20 people, probably many more. The other? That was all of us who conspired to live out a myth without accepting the reality of terrorism, and of the people out there who don't like us.

 

[Sensei Payne]

Building 7's Collapse

Features of a Textbook Implosion

[SIZE=-1]These three images (cropped from larger photographs) show WTC 7 at three different moments in its collapse. [/SIZE]
The total collapse of WTC 7 at 5:20 PM on 9/11/01 shows all of the features of an implosion engineered through controlled demolition.
Controlled demolition is the use of pre-positioned explosive charges to destroy structures. Depending on the nature of the structure and constraints imposed by its surroundings, a controlled demolition may require a great deal of precision in its planning and execution. That is especially true of tall steel buildings in urban settings, given the natural tendency of such structures to topple. Controlled demolitions of buildings in cities are designed to implode the structures, making them sink into their footprints and fold in on themselves into a small consolidated rubble piles



Observing the collapse of 47-story WTC 7 shows it to have all of the features of an implosion engineered by controlled demolition.

• The collapse of the main structure commences suddenly (several seconds after the penthouse falls).
• The building sinks in a precisely vertical manner into its footprint.
• Puffs of dust emerge from the building's facade early in the event.
• The collapse is total, producing a rubble pile only about three stories high.
• The main structure collapses totally in under 7 seconds, only about a second slower than it would take a brick dropped from the building's roof to reach the ground in a vacuum.

If there is one hole in the story...there are always others.

Lies beget MORE lies

Other Skyscraper Fires

Fires Have Never Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse

[SIZE=-1]The One Meridian Plaza fire [/SIZE]
Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things.
<A shape=rect name=onemeridian>The One Meridian Plaza Fire

One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that suffered a severe fire on February 23, 1991. The fire started on the 22nd floor and raged for 18 hours, gutting eight floors and causing an estimated $100 million in direct property loss. [SIZE=-1]1 [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]2 [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]3 [/SIZE] It was later described by Philadelphia officials as "the most significant fire in this century".
The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. [SIZE=-1]4 [/SIZE] Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

[SIZE=-1]The First Interstate Bank fire [/SIZE]
<A shape=rect name=firstinterstate>The First Interstate Bank Fire

The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss. [SIZE=-1]5 [/SIZE]
A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire:
In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans. [SIZE=-1]6 [/SIZE]
<A shape=rect name=newyorkplaza>The 1 New York Plaza Fire

[SIZE=-1]Close-up of the First Interstate Bank fire
Photo: New York Board of Underwriters [/SIZE]
1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours. [SIZE=-1]7 [/SIZE]
<A shape=rect name=caracastower>Caracas Tower Fire

The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela experienced a severe fire on October 17, 2004. The blaze began before midnight on the 34th floor, spread to more than 26 floors, and burned for more than 17 hours. Heat from the fires prevented firefighters from reaching the upper floors, and smoke injured 40 firefighters.
Lax enforcement of fire codes in Venezuela was blamed for the malfunctioning of water pumps and a lack of fire extinguishers inside of the building. Because the building was empty when the fire broke out, no civilians were killed or injured. [SIZE=-1]8 [/SIZE]
The Windsor Building Fire

[SIZE=-1]The Windsor Building fire [/SIZE]
A more recent case of a severe high-rise fire is the one that destroyed the Windsor Building in Madrid, Spain on February 12, 2005. The Windsor fire was more severe than any of the fires described above, and the incident has been widely publicized, with comparisons to the fires in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers on 9/11/01. However, the Windsor Building, unlike all the buildings mentioned above, was framed in steel-reinforced concrete rather than steel. Hence it is described on a separate page, which notes differences between the response of these different types of structures to fires.
[SIZE=-1]9 [/SIZE]

So if WTC7 was brought down by fire and fire alone...it is the only skyscraper in the HISTORY of skyscrapers, to be brought down that way. Sounds a little to implausible to me.

Even if Terrorists from a third party country had the best military training the US had to offer, and had the best planner in history...without the resources, there is no way anyone could pull that off..without of course, help from the inside, and from someone with enough authority and security access to keep every single honest Military officer and Intellegence agent, in the Dark.

 

[Sukerkin]

Those two points are ones that have tickled at my 'engineers spider sense' since I first learned of them, SP. They are indeed suspicious and, like any 'normal' alibi, once you cast doubt on one part then the whole becomes suspect.

However, my question, in all seriousness and without rancour, is what in your estimation will be gained by railing against the 'official line' when all that happens is that any query is then brushed off as 'Conspiracy Theory lunacy' by the wider media?

 

[elder999]

So if WTC7 was brought down by fire and fire alone...it is the only skyscraper in the HISTORY of skyscrapers, to be brought down that way. Sounds a little to implausible to me.

I suppose it's also the only one to be damaged by the collapse of another building, and left to burn without any firefighting for more than 6 hours, too, and that may have something to do with it being less than implausible, but hey-you're going to think whatever you want.

Oh, btw, remember what I posted up thread about spitting on the truth and the memory of those that died that day by even mentioning controlled demolition?

You just did.

 

[Sensei Payne]

However, my question, in all seriousness and without rancour, is what in your estimation will be gained by railing against the 'official line' when all that happens is that any query is then brushed off as 'Conspiracy Theory lunacy' by the wider media?

Oh, btw, remember what I posted up thread about spitting on the truth and the memory of those that died that day by even mentioning controlled demolition?

You just did.

IDK Sukerkin..I get labeled as the bad guy for asking questions. Elder has accused me several times of "spitting on the memory" of the people who died that day, but I really don't see it that way. I see it as fleshing out the facts from fiction. Asking questions is truely the only way to get to the truth. Face it Elder, the official story has holes, big ones, and I am also willing to admit that the jury is still out on a lot of the other theories that are out there...but facts are facts.

Am i spitting on God by saying I believe in Dinosuars or the Big Bang, or even Evolution?

No...and at one time or another, one could even be put to death for blasphamy...and it was all in the name of Science.

In America, in some circles, such as the one that elder is residing. Its a SIN and a CRIME to even mention that there could possiblly be a shread of evidence that our "Christ-Like" American Government could even be involved with anything like what happened on 9/11...the problem is, our Government is involved with a WHOLE lot of 9/11 like events all around the world and through out History.

All in all, me asking questions and presenting evidence that the official story has holes, and those holes point fingers at our American Government. Doesn't make me a bad guy, doesn't necessarily make me a good one either, but what it does make me, is a truth seeker, and when undeniable evidence is presented, my mind will be made up completely.

Faith is for God, not for Governments.