6 Year old BB to join our school (Just a rant/story I need to tell--long)

[jks9199]

Quite simply, the issue is "what do you consider a black belt to mean?"

In the case of the parents of the 6 year old -- and the school the girl attends -- it apparently means showing up consistently over a couple of years, and (I presume) participating in the material taught. The OP doesn't seem to believe that there was even any real testing of the material. In that sort of a case... the black belt is little more than a participation trophy.

In other cases, it's an advanced beginner, ready for the real instruction in a system -- or that you consistently & reliably beating the brown belts and some of the black belts in the school or otherwise have demonstrated attainment of a certain level of skill and depth of knowledge. A black belt may or may not be a teaching rank; in some cases, the two things are completely separate, and in others, first degree/level black belts aren't considered ready to teach on their own yet.

To me... it doesn't really matter. I know black belts who typify just about every approach to the belt. Mine simply is an outward recognition that the senior members of my association (especially the chief instructor at the time) felt that I had met the standards to become a full member, in skill, knowledge, maturity, and personality/persona. I don't expect it to carry special weight to someone from another system, nor does it automatically make me an expert on any sort of armed/unarmed combat!

 

[igillman]

I think the issue stems from charging money for testing. People assume that because they have paid their money they should pass the test. Instructors, fearing that the people will go elsewhere, feel that they are pressured to pass the student because the parents are there, it is a big ceremony and because the parents have paid the fee.

Not charging for testing and not making a big deal out of testing day would get rid of some of the pressure to pass them just because they showed up. The best sort of testing is the one where the instructor asks you to stay behind after class and then they present you with a new belt. Your test consisted of being able to do what was asked of you in class.

Black belt testing can stay the same (but a bit cheaper wouldn't do any harm) because the requirements for the belt before black were sufficiently hard that anybody who gets that far is not likely to fail the step up to black.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:

Are you gonna sell tickets? Let me be first in line.

 

[jim777]

To paraphrase Kacey from about a year ago, "You shouldn't have a black belt if you need to hold your mommy's hand to cross the supermarket parking lot". I thought that was brilliant at the time, still do. 6 year old black belts...:lol:
We accept students at 6, but I think our youngest ever junior BB was 12, and he's a very, very talented 17 year old 2nd Dan now.

 

[Cirdan]

They just let her skim through her classes and gave the belt ever 2 months. She then corrected me that it was ever two months up until the last 3 ranks then it was every 3 months.

Oh my, a whole 3 months to learn the stuff for a Black Belt test :lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

A word of advice: if the number of $`s you pay for grading is greater than the number of hours you trained... you might have been McDojang`D!

 

[Earl Weiss]

You are more than welcome to stop by. I'm sure Sensei Sharkey would love to feel your slap. :mst:

Are you gonna sell tickets? Let me be first in line.

Sorry, Should elaborate. Sharkey was a force to be reckned with on the open tournament circuit. Caught him in action back in the 1970's . I hear he has remained active so I expect that like all of us he has lost a little over 30 years, but there is no substitute for experience. Well, maybe some...

 

[rmclain]

I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS

I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them

I saw an ATA school in my area does that. They had in their advertisement at one time, "3.5 years old and up." I should probably get a commission for the number of potential student's parent's that call asking that their 3 & 4 year-old get enrolled with us, then I refer them to that ATA school.

R. McLain

 

[StuartA]

I saw an ATA school in my area does that. They had in their advertisement at one time, "3.5 years old and up." I should probably get a commission for the number of potential student's parent's that call asking that their 3 & 4 year-old get enrolled with us, then I refer them to that ATA school.

R. McLain

Hi Robert,

Thats interesting.. I usually tell parents equirying about such things to be very cautious of schools that "claim" to teach students that young, as more than likely its simply day care, not martial arts!

Stuart

Ps. Regarding the OP - I had a similar experience with a 6 year old BB that I recounted in my book. My thoughts are is to ask yourself if your school really needs the money that bad, as allowing a 6 year old BB into your school will tarnish its reputation, so I would simply state your rules and be done with it. Problem is, with the schools that offer such things is they play to the parents ego and that is the hard thing to change, the kids probibly dont care at that age!

 

[just2kicku]

I want to know what the hell kind of school takes 3 YEAR OLDS

I want to find that instructor and slap the ever loving crap out of them

Well TF, there's an ATA school here that has a class for the 2-4 year olds. And I ran across another school that takes 2-4 year olds also. They teach them stuff that I teach my 2 year old at home.

My child is a dojo baby and when he's old enough and his attention span is good enough, I will start training him at our dojo. But I'll be damned if he'll be a black belt before he's 18.

 

[miguksaram]

Sorry, Should elaborate. Sharkey was a force to be reckned with on the open tournament circuit. Caught him in action back in the 1970's . I hear he has remained active so I expect that like all of us he has lost a little over 30 years, but there is no substitute for experience. Well, maybe some...

Well, he still has speed and now he is sneaky as hell. ha.ha.haha. He still travels the AKA and the NASKA circuit as a coach and mentor to a lot of kids out there. He has been president of the AKA since 1974. He is a great instructor with some awesome knowledge in training methods and Chicago MA history. He is does a great job in keeping tradition an implementing different innovations in sport martial arts.

BTW Earl, did you call our school in reference to the Illnois Boxing Commission fisascal going on?

 

[miguksaram]

Hi Robert,
Ps. Regarding the OP - I had a similar experience with a 6 year old BB that I recounted in my book. My thoughts are is to ask yourself if your school really needs the money that bad, as allowing a 6 year old BB into your school will tarnish its reputation, so I would simply state your rules and be done with it. Problem is, with the schools that offer such things is they play to the parents ego and that is the hard thing to change, the kids probibly dont care at that age!

It is not a question about money. However, given the opportunity to "right" some wrongs, wouldn't you take the chance in having her come in and train her correctly?

Sensei has been around long enough that people know if they say a 6 year old BB in the class that she was definitely an implant (That's what we call people who become students at our school and have had previous training.) So we are not worried about our rep in that sense.

 

[miguksaram]

I think the issue stems from charging money for testing. People assume that because they have paid their money they should pass the test. Instructors, fearing that the people will go elsewhere, feel that they are pressured to pass the student because the parents are there, it is a big ceremony and because the parents have paid the fee.

I don't believe it is the money aspect, it is the aspect of telling parents that their kid is just not ready to test or, if they do test and don't do well, that their child didn't pass.

I have a fun story of asking this question at the Martial Arts Industry Association convention a couple of years ago: "How do you handle telling the parents and student that they did not pass their belt test?" I might as well asked "How do you explain to the parents that their child sucks" because the panel was ready to crucify me for even asking the question.

Bottomline is we have had kids test and not pass. We simply tell them what they need to work on and that we will retest them in a couple of weeks.

 

[miguksaram]

My child is a dojo baby and when he's old enough and his attention span is good enough, I will start training him at our dojo. But I'll be damned if he'll be a black belt before he's 18.

Both of my kids are dojo babies as well. My oldest started formal classes at 5 (he's now 14). He will be testing for his jr. BB in September after being with Sensei Sharkey for 5 years. Prior to that he was in TKD where he earned his Purple belt (4th gup) and he was training in kumdo as well. My youngest started at 4 years and just did his 2 hour test for his Jr. brown belt last week and passed though he doesn't know it yet.

My deal with them is they have to stick it out until adult BB which can't be achieved from the school until they are the minimum age of 16.

 

[StuartA]

It is not a question about money. However, given the opportunity to "right" some wrongs, wouldn't you take the chance in having her come in and train her correctly?

I get what your saying, but by accepting the 6 year old as a BB, how much wrong are you righting compared to verifying the BB in the kids parents eyes! You can tell by her response to you that she has been reeled in hook, line & sinker and any less than joining as a current BB is unacceptable!

Sensei has been around long enough that people know if they say a 6 year old BB in the class that she was definitely an implant. (That's what we call people who become students at our school and have had previous training.) So we are not worried about our rep in that sense.

At your school perhaps.. not elseware. I dont know you, others dont know you and wouldnt ask if that 6 year old BB is a implant or one of your own.. just food for thought! But TBH.. I think most would frown on anyone who allows a "implant" 6 year old BB into their school without a major down-grade and see the $$$ making side rather than any righting wrong type of thing, even if that was their way of thinking! Because no school should have a 6 year old BB, let alone a reputable one!

Stuart

Ps. In answer to your (first) question.. no I wouldnt, not as a BB!

 

[miguksaram]

I get what your saying, but by accepting the 6 year old as a BB, how much wrong are you righting compared to verifying the BB in the kids parents eyes! You can tell by her response to you that she has been reeled in hook, line & sinker and any less than joining as a current BB is unacceptable!

Actually it is almost a perfect scenario in our eyes. Now that she has the black belt she won't be focusing on the belt anymore and will actually focus on the material that she is learning. I've mentioned this before, but one of the things Sensei semi-joked about was to give every person who signed up at our school a black belt. That way they would be motivated to learn for the sake of learning.

At your school perhaps.. not elseware. I dont know you, others dont know you and wouldnt ask if that 6 year old BB is a implant or one of your own.. just food for thought!

Well you are right, that you don't know us or our reputation, but Sensei is well known in the Chicago MA community as well as the open circuit community of NASKA, AKA, NBL, WKA. So, again, reputation is never a factor in our decision making. We have raised enough regional, national and world champions as well as just great martial artists and "citizens" that we are not going stress on what other think about us taking in a 6 year old bb. I understand what you are saying, but it is just not an issue with us.

But TBH.. I think most would frown on anyone who allows a "implant" 6 year old BB into their school without a major down-grade and see the $$$ making side rather than any righting wrong type of thing, even if that was their way of thinking!

I guess I'm confused on this statement, because not downgrading here is not going to put more money in our pocket in fact we would make less because she would not be paying for any color belt testing. Our mentorship program we have for the "implant" is a one on one lesson that they do to get them up to speed with our curriculum. We don't charge for that, unless they choose to do private lessons outside of regular class times.

 

[StuartA]

I guess I'm confused on this statement,

Sorry, what I meant was people would simply see a 6 year old BB in your class and think you were a money-making McDojang ie. the two come togethor like 'bread & butter'.. even with the sincerest intentions at heart, from the outside, no one would see that!

Rest of your points noted, but remember, reputations can be easily tarnished no matter how strong you may feel they are - Ive seen it happen loads of times!

Still.. your call of course. I still wouldnt!

Stuart

 

[miguksaram]

Sorry, what I meant was people would simply see a 6 year old BB in your class and think you were a money-making McDojang ie. the two come togethor like 'bread & butter'.. even with the sincerest intentions at heart, from the outside, no one would see that!

Ahhhhh...I see what you mean now and I would agree that it could have the presence about it.

Rest of your points noted, but remember, reputations can be easily tarnished no matter how strong you may feel they are - Ive seen it happen loads of times!

Still.. your call of course. I still wouldnt!

Yes, reps are like are easily tarnished. We just have to do our best to keep it alive. Who knows...like one of the posters said, they may not even come back anyway.

 

[Nomad]

Yes, reps are like are easily tarnished. We just have to do our best to keep it alive. Who knows...like one of the posters said, they may not even come back anyway.

My personal preference would be to congratulate the girl on her achievement, let her and her family know that not all dojos evaluate the same way and that your studio has differing requirements for the various belt levels. If she was interesting in continuing her training with you, I'd insist that she be evaluated for her technique, and wear the appropriate belt in your classes (would not make her start over at white belt; that's too harsh, and no doubt she has learned some good skills and basics from her prior training).

Letting her wear an inflated belt (by your standards) in your dojo sends a bunch of wrong signals to many people (other students, parents, passersby, new prospects), and I think can only lead to negative things. The worst that could happen by your insistence that she meet your standards is that she doesn't train with you. Too bad, but overall a very minor loss.

 

[SJON]

The more I read, the more I realise what a considerable body of water the Atlantic is ...

 

[Kwan Jang]

If I may chime in with a few rather long comments. It is always a difficult situation when another school has created a problem by giving away belts to students that are far from ready for what that level represents. While I DO believe that junior black belts ARE a good idea for those that earn them, I don't believe that the belt should be watered down so that ANY six year old should be capable of it. I treat my jr. bb's like warrant officers in the military, they are recognized for their accomplishments and their ability, but they don't have the responsibilities or authority of an adult black belt which they can reach at 18.

My current policy for "imports" (people coming in from other schools, styles, ect) is that I did not give them their belts so it is not mine to take away from them. However, in our school, they will wear a white belt for a "break-in period" of 6-8 weeks for them to learn our curriculum (though it can be longer if they request more time) and then we will test them up to the level that they belong at. There are no test fees (I'm not fond of them anyway and only charge what our assn. requires) and most "real" black belts coming in from other schools end up at brown, though I had a Isshin ryu 3rd dan who also had a BJJ brown belt make it to black belt candidate this month (she's really good). Since our curriculum is a mix of TKD, BJJ, MT and the FMA's (and all systems must be at a high level by the standards of that system), it's hard for someone coming in to just jump right in at a high level. For example, even many of the best TKD black belts that have come in have a lot of trouble sparring muay thai or doing submission grappling with our brown belts which for us is fourth gup and two years out from their black belt(or jr. bb) test, so after they get in there for a few weeks, they pretty much understand.

We used to give people from other schools an option of wearing their old belts, but we found that always ended up creating problems. Virtually all of the people who took this option came from the "McDojo's" and I can't ever recall a single one, from my school at least, ever making it all the way through to black belt with our higher standards. The only ones who ever made it were the ones who had enough of a work ethic and had enough drive were the ones who chose to take the option that is now the only option we give. That's why we finally took the other option off the table. The only "good" that ever came out of the other method was letting our other students see the difference in the quality of our black belts and that of the imports from other schools. Like Mr. Sharkey, we did it with good intentions rather than ego, assuming that it was an oppurtunity to give the new student the value in their training that their old school did not, but should have. However, like I said before, I've never had ANY student come in who took that option that stayed through the long haul. OTOH, I have had many black belts who took the other option that have grown into fantastic black belts, even ones that have come in from McDojos, because they had the right mindset and were less concerned about rank and just wanted to learn and grow.

A quick comment about Mr. Sharkey's school's reputation if I may. His IS one of the top tournament schools in the USA. While tournament karate is not a major focus of my school (though some of our guys, including me, have been quite successful at it), I do recognize quality and people who have achieved excellence at what they do. Even though I am personally much more of a MMA, submission grappling, and full-contact/kickboxing guy, I still occasionally do open forms at the point tournaments and some of my students compete in forms, weapons and (even...egad) point sparring. Sharkey's people are a powerhouse on the open circuit and they have a high level of quality among their competitors;among the highest on the national circuit. Therefore, I really doubt that his generous approach towards the "imports from the McDojos" will do much to tarnish his rep.

One final comment regarding one posters suggestion that there should be no test and just to quietly move the students up. IMO, the real reason to have a belt system is to give the students something to shoot for and an incentive to grow. I believe that it really needs to be something that they must grow in to, otherwise it really has little to no value. I do use the lower belts to help build confidence and help beginners learn "yes, I can". In the early phases, as long as they are training and trying, they are going to pass. However, I will NOT let them test until I know hey are ready to blow that test out of the water. At this level, if they were to fail a test, it's my failure or that of my staff for putting them into that position that they were not ready for. At intermediate levels, I'm looking more at details and building the real skills and a strong foundation. Once again, I will delay a test rather than flunk a student. If they are weak on something and they they don't pass that particular part of the test, we will work with them hard with some private lessons and re-test them when they get it down. At advanced levels (brown belt which is roughly the two year mark in our system in a four year min. to bb), play time is over and now we are starting to train a student to become a black belt. What was encouraged before is now required and enforced. I will still try not to put a student up for a test until I am convinced that they are ready to pass, but sometimes the lesson that they really need to learn at this point is that failure to prepare is preparing to fail and I would rather them quit than compromise our standards. To me, the quality of our product as instructors is the quality of our advanced students, especially our black belts. If we are not producing a high quality product, then what we do and what we teach is of little value IMO.