Unique scenerio

SahBumNimRush

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I teach Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo. I had a WT 3rd Poom candidate stop by my class last night. She is 9 years old, and preparing for her 3rd poom. Her KJN has agreed to test her via zoom for her 3rd Poom, as she and her family moved last week from TX to OH. I am the only TKD school in the area, and we do not teach the WT/Kukkiwon curriculum.

She is requesting time in our dojang to get her required hours of training prior to her zoom test. Has anyone encountered situations like this in the past? How did you handle them, how did it all work out?

I imagine it would be a scenerio, where she would spend time on our floor training alongside other students, but she would not be getting so much instruction as just time on the floor with others. After her test, if she enjoyed the experience, she could then join our school as a white belt.

Personally, I don't agree with a 9 year old 3 dan/poom, but that's not my organization, not my school. However, I don't want to be a hinderance for her achieving her goals, as she had no say in her family moving. It could be a good opportunity for my students to train with someone with a different background and perspective.
 

Flying Crane

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Im not sure how her spending time on the floor of your school, if she isnt getting instruction from you, is relevant to her training requirements for her next test. Would you need to somehow sign off on her participation, to satisfy her instructor? And if you DID give her instruction but your curriculum and system are different, still not relevant. Maybe she should just train at home and log the hours?

Or maybe she should just join your school under your requirements, and be done with it.

People sometimes want to do a bunch of contortions to satisfy a requirement when perhaps its simply time to move on.
 
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MadMartigan

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I see an opportunity to show her and her parents how much more there is to learn. Let's face it, where she came from clearly in only interested in her parent's checkbook. It's unlikely she has been taught much of anything up to this point.

If she's 9yrs old and going for 3rd, that sounds like she would have been given her 1st 'junior black belt' at what, 5? (Sure, she could be that 1 in 10 million student who is actually a prodigy... but those are steep odds).

I'd welcome her in to train alongside your students as a guest. I see several possible outcomes (none of which has a downside for you):

- 1: She's exceptional, and can be an inspiration for your students around her age to work towards;
- 2: She's abysmal, and reminds your students how lucky they are to be receiving real quality instruction;
- 2a: She and her parents see how much better your green belts (probably) at her same age are than her and leave (further burying their heads in the sand); or
- 2b: She and her parents see how much better your green belts are than her, realize they've been swindled up to now by a belt mill, and sign her up to begin actually learning something.

In all these, you don't have to say a negative word about her previous school... let them watch your students and see it for themselves.
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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Im not sure how her spending time on the floor of your school, if she isnt getting instruction from you, is relevant to her training requirements for her next test. Would you need to somehow sign off on her participation, to satisfy her instructor? And if you DID give her instruction but your curriculum and system are different, still not relevant. Maybe she should just train at home and log the hours?

Or maybe she should just join your school under your requirements, and be done with it.

People sometimes want to do a bunch of contortions to satisfy a requirement when perhaps its simply time to move on.
I hear you. Her previous school ran 45 minute classes, that consisted of calisthenics, forms, drills, and sparring. It appears to be a sport focused school.

My curriculum is as traditional as my Kwan Jang Nim trained back in the 50's and 60's, and then passed down to us. I'm not commenting about better or worse, but it is different.

She apparently needs to log hours sparring, as her previous school spends quite a bit of their 45 minute class sparring. Her KJN did some searching online, and noticed that we are the only school in the area that her family was relocating to. If she is preparing for 3rd poom, again, I'm not commenting on the validity of such, she wouldn't benefit from trying to learn the curriculum that I teach. That being said, I told her that we could come to some arrangement for her to participate in the class. At the very least the sparring portion of class.

I am confident that she would become a student, after she achieves her 3rd poom. She has 4-6 weeks left before her virtual test.

As my organization does not offer Poom rank, and we are not a modern TKD school. That being said, we are all taekwondo. I'm trying to find a solution that supports a young martial artist on her journey, not imposing my way, as she is not my student, and at the same time not taking away from my school/students time.
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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I see an opportunity to show her and her parents how much more there is to learn. Let's face it, where she came from clearly in only interested in her parent's checkbook. It's unlikely she has been taught much of anything up to this point.

If she's 9yrs old and going for 3rd, that sounds like she would have been given her 1st 'junior black belt' at what, 5? (Sure, she could be that 1 in 10 million student who is actually a prodigy... but those are steep odds).

I'd welcome her in to train alongside your students as a guest. I see several possible outcomes (none of which has a downside for you):

- 1: She's exceptional, and can be an inspiration for your students around her age to work towards;
- 2: She's abysmal, and reminds your students how lucky they are to be receiving real quality instruction;
- 2a: She and her parents see how much better your green belts (probably) at her same age are than her and leave (further burying their heads in the sand); or
- 2b: She and her parents see how much better your green belts are than her, realize they've been swindled up to now by a belt mill, and sign her up to begin actually learning something.

In all these, you don't have to say a negative word about her previous school... let them watch your students and see it for themselves.
This is pretty much how I'm looking at this situation. Thanks for the input and support.
 

Flying Crane

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I hear you. Her previous school ran 45 minute classes, that consisted of calisthenics, forms, drills, and sparring. It appears to be a sport focused school.

My curriculum is as traditional as my Kwan Jang Nim trained back in the 50's and 60's, and then passed down to us. I'm not commenting about better or worse, but it is different.

She apparently needs to log hours sparring, as her previous school spends quite a bit of their 45 minute class sparring. Her KJN did some searching online, and noticed that we are the only school in the area that her family was relocating to. If she is preparing for 3rd poom, again, I'm not commenting on the validity of such, she wouldn't benefit from trying to learn the curriculum that I teach. That being said, I told her that we could come to some arrangement for her to participate in the class. At the very least the sparring portion of class.

I am confident that she would become a student, after she achieves her 3rd poom. She has 4-6 weeks left before her virtual test.

As my organization does not offer Poom rank, and we are not a modern TKD school. That being said, we are all taekwondo. I'm trying to find a solution that supports a young martial artist on her journey, not imposing my way, as she is not my student, and at the same time not taking away from my school/students time.
The problem is, you become an accomplice to something that you fundamentally disagree with. That third Dan/poome thing at such a young age, she is just going through the motions and you are signing off on it. And a virtual test to boot, for this rank? Wow.

maybe she needs to make trips back to TX to work with her instructor until she completes this.

Honestly, I think this puts you in an awkward position and really isnt fair to you. They should have just left you out of it. You can only give her what you feel is the best. You cant get dragged into something you feel is deeply inferior. In my opinion, she either joins you school under your standards and practices, or she is on her own to figure out a way to complete her test.

I think you can explain to the parents that you simply do things differently, and just because you and her school are TKD does not mean they are the same and interchangeable so it is a poor fit. That is the honest truth.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Theoretically, at 3rd Poom/Dan, they should be more than capable of doing their own workout/training. So there should be no issue with her doing her forms and training on the side until time for sparring, then joining in as a guest "sparrer" for that section of class. If she's unable to do that, have a call with her and her old instructor to discuss why.

Or just leave it alone; not everyone can always progress at the rate they want to-life happens. Being forced to accept a setback is part of that. Especially if the issue is simply that she won't be able to grade when she otherwise would have, and not that she can no longer participate (as you said she could if she started as a white belt in your school).
 
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SahBumNimRush

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The problem is, you become an accomplice to something that you fundamentally disagree with. That third Dan/poome thing at such a young age, she is just going through the motions and you are signing off on it. And a virtual test to boot, for this rank? Wow.

maybe she needs to make trips back to TX to work with her instructor until she completes this.

Honestly, I think this puts you in an awkward position and really isnt fair to you. They should have just left you out of it. You can only give her what you feel is the best. You cant get dragged into something you feel is deeply inferior. In my opinion, she either joins you school under your standards and practices, or she is on her own to figure out a way to complete her test.

I think you can explain to the parents that you simply do things differently, and just because you and her school are TKD does not mean they are the same and interchangeable so it is a poor fit. That is the honest truth.
I hear and respect your opinion on the matter. I guess, as much as I disagree with what the modernization of TKD has become, I can also recognize that rank in one doesn't mean the same as another. There was a time in my life, that I was disgusted with such a thing as a 9 year old 3rd dan. That is me judging my rank standard on someone else's art and journey, and I've tried to reconcile that perspective.

If what she is studying is at a standard for what is being presented by her organization (Kukkiwon), I'm trying to be considerate of that. It's not what I teach, but I'm the only show in a small town. I am tempted to "help her out" and let her come into my class to spar with my students. It could be a great learning experience for all parties involved. I want nothing to do with her test; not my circus, not my monkey (yet).

On the other hand, I understand your perspective of the validation I may be placing on her previous training, school, rank, and organization. That is something that I have to keep in mind for my organization, KJN, and myself.
 
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SahBumNimRush

SahBumNimRush

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Theoretically, at 3rd Poom/Dan, they should be more than capable of doing their own workout/training. So there should be no issue with her doing her forms and training on the side until time for sparring, then joining in as a guest "sparrer" for that section of class. If she's unable to do that, have a call with her and her old instructor to discuss why.

Or just leave it alone; not everyone can always progress at the rate they want to-life happens. Being forced to accept a setback is part of that. Especially if the issue is simply that she won't be able to grade when she otherwise would have, and not that she can no longer participate (as you said she could if she started as a white belt in your school).
Thanks, in my mind, this is what I envision happening. That being said, I've never done anything like this in the past, so I figured I'd throw this one out to the MT crowd for some conversation.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I hear and respect your opinion on the matter. I guess, as much as I disagree with what the modernization of TKD has become, I can also recognize that rank in one doesn't mean the same as another. There was a time in my life, that I was disgusted with such a thing as a 9 year old 3rd dan. That is me judging my rank standard on someone else's art and journey, and I've tried to reconcile that perspective.

If what she is studying is at a standard for what is being presented by her organization (Kukkiwon), I'm trying to be considerate of that. It's not what I teach, but I'm the only show in a small town. I am tempted to "help her out" and let her come into my class to spar with my students. It could be a great learning experience for all parties involved. I want nothing to do with her test; not my circus, not my monkey (yet).

On the other hand, I understand your perspective of the validation I may be placing on her previous training, school, rank, and organization. That is something that I have to keep in mind for my organization, KJN, and myself.
Something else to keep in mind is the perspective of your students. If they see someone of their age, with the same amount of training, getting a third degree, while they are stuck at blue/green belt, how would they feel and react to training with that individual? And keep in mind, even if you or I may know that you are not ranking her, to other 8/9/10 year olds, all they are seeing/understanding is that someone came in at a rank way higher than theirs (presumably with the same skill level), and 'you' promote them even higher shortly after they arrive. How involved you are with feedback to her will have some impact on that perception, but I can see it souring the attitudes and journeys of some of your own students.
 

Flying Crane

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I hear and respect your opinion on the matter. I guess, as much as I disagree with what the modernization of TKD has become, I can also recognize that rank in one doesn't mean the same as another. There was a time in my life, that I was disgusted with such a thing as a 9 year old 3rd dan. That is me judging my rank standard on someone else's art and journey, and I've tried to reconcile that perspective.

If what she is studying is at a standard for what is being presented by her organization (Kukkiwon), I'm trying to be considerate of that. It's not what I teach, but I'm the only show in a small town. I am tempted to "help her out" and let her come into my class to spar with my students. It could be a great learning experience for all parties involved. I want nothing to do with her test; not my circus, not my monkey (yet).

On the other hand, I understand your perspective of the validation I may be placing on her previous training, school, rank, and organization. That is something that I have to keep in mind for my organization, KJN, and myself.
Ok, you are in a small town. This girl is new in town, she will be in school with any of your students who are of a like age. I think this is a bit dangerous, if you take part. There is no anonymity. Your students will know what your participation was, they will be in school with her and may judge and resent her. There are no secrets in a small community.

Maybe best to not get involved with this. I really think they put you in a bad position, where you could end up looking like the bad guy, no matter what you do. Better to be loyal to your students and your teaching, and risk disappointing this one girl. But keep your doors open to her to join properly when she is ready.
 

Buka

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SahBumNimRush, the best things about all this is what you said in the OP....

"After her test, if she enjoyed the experience, she could then join our school as a white belt."

That and the facts that you care, and you are trying to help people. Good on you bro.
 

Earl Weiss

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Personally, I don't agree with a 9 year old 3 dan/poom, but that's not my organization, not my school.
Sir, it would seem you are not the decision maker and unless or until you call the shots at that school you would have to follow what the school owner says.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Sir, it would seem you are not the decision maker and unless or until you call the shots at that school you would have to follow what the school owner says.
I think you might be confused about the situation (unless I'm misunderstanding your response). SahBum is the school owner at his school, so he does not have to follow what an outside school owner says. What he is debating is whether or not to give an outside school owner's student the ability to train at his school, in a different style, to help her be promoted to 3rd poom. He is more than able to refuse and not agree to the outside school owner's request.
 
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SahBumNimRush

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I think you might be confused about the situation (unless I'm misunderstanding your response). SahBum is the school owner at his school, so he does not have to follow what an outside school owner says. What he is debating is whether or not to give an outside school owner's student the ability to train at his school, in a different style, to help her be promoted to 3rd poom. He is more than able to refuse and not agree to the outside school owner's request.

Yes, exactly this.
 

MadMartigan

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What he is debating is whether or not to give an outside school owner's student the ability to train at his school, in a different style, to help her be promoted to 3rd poom. He is more than able to refuse and not agree to the outside school owner's request.
That sums it up nicely.

In another area of this thread, it was mentioned that 'you're both Tae Kwon Do'. While I guess this could factor into the decision (depending on an individual's mindset); I don't see the relevance to be honest. Karate, TKD, Kickboxing, Kenpo, or whatever. As long as they respect the rules of whose house they're in, come get some training in;

I'm a serious proponent of cross training. Any exposure I and my students can get to other methods and skillsets, only benefits us. Either we learn something new that's good... or we learn what not to do from someone's example.

I have confidence in the general intelligence level of my students; and believe them capable of understanding that someone they've never seen before, wearing a different uniform, and doing movements differently, is not from 'round here.

1 caveat that I must admit others in this thread have changed my mind on is due to the age involved however.

- If this 9 year old was placed with the teens/adults... no problem.
- If she was training wearing her black belt beside other 6-9 year olds (who in my school would almost all be green belts or below) this could create confusion around the nuance of what a black belt is supposed to represent.

On reflection, you guys were right. It's no easy answer. I'd still probably let her come practice and help as possible... but I'd probably insist she train with older student and not her own age group (until she joined as a white belt later).
 

dvcochran

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I teach Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo. I had a WT 3rd Poom candidate stop by my class last night. She is 9 years old, and preparing for her 3rd poom. Her KJN has agreed to test her via zoom for her 3rd Poom, as she and her family moved last week from TX to OH. I am the only TKD school in the area, and we do not teach the WT/Kukkiwon curriculum.

She is requesting time in our dojang to get her required hours of training prior to her zoom test. Has anyone encountered situations like this in the past? How did you handle them, how did it all work out?

I imagine it would be a scenerio, where she would spend time on our floor training alongside other students, but she would not be getting so much instruction as just time on the floor with others. After her test, if she enjoyed the experience, she could then join our school as a white belt.

Personally, I don't agree with a 9 year old 3 dan/poom, but that's not my organization, not my school. However, I don't want to be a hinderance for her achieving her goals, as she had no say in her family moving. It could be a good opportunity for my students to train with someone with a different background and perspective.
Sir, first let me say I commend you for being thorough in your consideration of the matter.
It is a quandary I have experienced a few times, two of which did not go well at all. I had no problem treating them as a visiting student but they essentially thought I would change the curriculum to fit their needs when they were in class. It lasted
2-3 weeks and they left in frustration. The third was a recent adult who knew they would be moving again and gelled very well while at our school.
I admit I am perplexed with a 9 year old 3rd poom/dan. Unless you can vet the person I would be leary.
Would you make exceptions for this person In class or does she just need raw but certified hours?
Lastly, going from 3rd poom to white belt is a big jump. If they are willing to do this I would take it as a good sign.
FYI, we are also MDK.
I am anxious to hear how this works out.
 
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dvcochran

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I hear you. Her previous school ran 45 minute classes, that consisted of calisthenics, forms, drills, and sparring. It appears to be a sport focused school.

My curriculum is as traditional as my Kwan Jang Nim trained back in the 50's and 60's, and then passed down to us. I'm not commenting about better or worse, but it is different.

She apparently needs to log hours sparring, as her previous school spends quite a bit of their 45 minute class sparring. Her KJN did some searching online, and noticed that we are the only school in the area that her family was relocating to. If she is preparing for 3rd poom, again, I'm not commenting on the validity of such, she wouldn't benefit from trying to learn the curriculum that I teach. That being said, I told her that we could come to some arrangement for her to participate in the class. At the very least the sparring portion of class.

I am confident that she would become a student, after she achieves her 3rd poom. She has 4-6 weeks left before her virtual test.

As my organization does not offer Poom rank, and we are not a modern TKD school. That being said, we are all taekwondo. I'm trying to find a solution that supports a young martial artist on her journey, not imposing my way, as she is not my student, and at the same time not taking away from my school/students time.
That last paragraph is freaking beautiful.
 

dvcochran

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Theoretically, at 3rd Poom/Dan, they should be more than capable of doing their own workout/training. So there should be no issue with her doing her forms and training on the side until time for sparring, then joining in as a guest "sparrer" for that section of class. If she's unable to do that, have a call with her and her old instructor to discuss why.

Or just leave it alone; not everyone can always progress at the rate they want to-life happens. Being forced to accept a setback is part of that. Especially if the issue is simply that she won't be able to grade when she otherwise would have, and not that she can no longer participate (as you said she could if she started as a white belt in your school).
Yes, but we are talking about a 9 year old.
 
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