My mistake and I have seen them in korea wear them as well under the age of 18 so I do not understand that statement. Sorry about the mix up
5 year old black belts?
- Thread starter Calhoun
- Start date
My mistake and I have seen them in korea wear them as well under the age of 18 so I do not understand that statement. Sorry about the mix up
jim777
Master Black Belt
wayofhandandfoot
White Belt
yeah that's true i've seen jr bb's from korea as well. This is something that he told me. I've also seen in korea kids wearing red/black belts with a red black collar. I think that he was referring to these.
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2006
- Messages
- 712
- Reaction score
- 17
I do not accept students until they are at least five, thus to reach a Black Belt at age five with me is not going to happen. This was touched on before. It takes an adult at least 3 years to legitimately reach Black Belt. It should take children longer in almost every case. A five year old would have to start training at age one or even two. What kind of training is this - - Black Belt training? My sons have been receiving some exposure to training since they were born. One did a perfect roundhouse at age 1. I did not enroll them until they were almost five. My twins are eight now and are purple belts. What is the rush? So many people over the years, in various Martial Art systems, wanted to hold the record with the "world's youngest Black Belt," but are they really qualified?
I don't know what everyone is doing in Korea, but when I was there in '96, I did not see one Taekwondo student under age 15 who wore a solid Black Belt. Every single one that I saw had the half red & black poom belt and collar. When the Korean Jr. Eagle team (younger version of the Korean Tiger Demo team) toured the U.S. in 1995, they worked out at both of my Dojang and demonstrated at a couple of local venues with us. All of them wore the poom belt and collar. If Koreans have started to change this in recent times, then it is because of the western influence, which I believe would be a shame!
A child is not fully mentally or physically matured. In the U.S. (and most places) they can not vote, drive cars, drink alcohol, be emancipated, join the military, work in factories, get married, etc., etc. A child who passes the physical requirements of each of the color belt grades (geup) usually does so with some consideration for their age. They are not held to the exact same standards and requirements of adults. Over my career, I have seen some children (9 - 12 years old) who were phenomenal, but they were the exceptions, and still, they could not match with most adults of the same rank.
The proper designation for a child under the age of 15 who completes the geup curriculum is a "Poom." This is a jr. rank, and is "similar" to what an adult Black Belt Dan rank represents as far as the stage of training, but is not equal to a Dan. Some organizations will print the word "Dan" on their certificate. I do not believe the Kukkiwon does. They might be allowed, by their instructor, to wear a solid black belt, but their KKW certificate should state that it is a Poom (Junior Black Belt).
Even if other instructors let the "poom certified" child wear a solid Black Belt, I never will. A child is a poom and wears the proper insignia, and my students know this. They also know what they might be sacrificing in quality of instruction if they choose to go to another school simply because that instructor will let them wear the Black Belt. If an instructor provides quality teaching and lets them wear the Black Belt, then good for them, but I won't do it. :mst:
Personally, I believe the Kukkiwon age limits are too lax. In particular, I do not like the notion that a 3rd or 4th level Poom may transfer rank comparable to a 3rd or 4th Dan at such a young age (even age 16 to 21). I don't mind that children who have been 1st poom for a while could advance to a senior grade of 2nd or 3rd Poom, but I do not consider this the same as what is required between the Dan ranks. I would prefer that higher poom must first test for the 1st Dan, and then are simply allowed to test for a 2nd or 3rd Dan at shorter intervals than those who were not poom as a child.
What do you all think about that?
CM D.J. Eisenhart
I don't know what everyone is doing in Korea, but when I was there in '96, I did not see one Taekwondo student under age 15 who wore a solid Black Belt. Every single one that I saw had the half red & black poom belt and collar. When the Korean Jr. Eagle team (younger version of the Korean Tiger Demo team) toured the U.S. in 1995, they worked out at both of my Dojang and demonstrated at a couple of local venues with us. All of them wore the poom belt and collar. If Koreans have started to change this in recent times, then it is because of the western influence, which I believe would be a shame!
A child is not fully mentally or physically matured. In the U.S. (and most places) they can not vote, drive cars, drink alcohol, be emancipated, join the military, work in factories, get married, etc., etc. A child who passes the physical requirements of each of the color belt grades (geup) usually does so with some consideration for their age. They are not held to the exact same standards and requirements of adults. Over my career, I have seen some children (9 - 12 years old) who were phenomenal, but they were the exceptions, and still, they could not match with most adults of the same rank.
The proper designation for a child under the age of 15 who completes the geup curriculum is a "Poom." This is a jr. rank, and is "similar" to what an adult Black Belt Dan rank represents as far as the stage of training, but is not equal to a Dan. Some organizations will print the word "Dan" on their certificate. I do not believe the Kukkiwon does. They might be allowed, by their instructor, to wear a solid black belt, but their KKW certificate should state that it is a Poom (Junior Black Belt).
Even if other instructors let the "poom certified" child wear a solid Black Belt, I never will. A child is a poom and wears the proper insignia, and my students know this. They also know what they might be sacrificing in quality of instruction if they choose to go to another school simply because that instructor will let them wear the Black Belt. If an instructor provides quality teaching and lets them wear the Black Belt, then good for them, but I won't do it. :mst:
Personally, I believe the Kukkiwon age limits are too lax. In particular, I do not like the notion that a 3rd or 4th level Poom may transfer rank comparable to a 3rd or 4th Dan at such a young age (even age 16 to 21). I don't mind that children who have been 1st poom for a while could advance to a senior grade of 2nd or 3rd Poom, but I do not consider this the same as what is required between the Dan ranks. I would prefer that higher poom must first test for the 1st Dan, and then are simply allowed to test for a 2nd or 3rd Dan at shorter intervals than those who were not poom as a child.
What do you all think about that?
CM D.J. Eisenhart
Last Fearner you are correct certificate for anyone under the age of 15 read poom rank and not dan rank also in Korea now some org. let there students wear a solid BB, still do not know why but they do. At my school I opted for the solid BB but every single parent and child knows it is a junior BB and at age 15 we can send off paperwork to change it over to a dan ranking.
My son is 13 years old (will be 14 soon). He started taking TKD when he was 5 years old. He became a black belt (now I know it is actually a poom..we were never told that) when he was one month shy of his 8th birthday. So it took him about 3 years to obtain his black belt. Over the years his focus on TKD has changed but he is absolutely dedicated to martial arts. When he was younger he was more into the competitions. He went to junior olympics once. He was on demontration teams. He still goes to competitions every once in a while but he is more focused on the actual art now. He enjoys helping the younger kids in class. His younger brother recently started taking TKD so he is helping him out too. He earned his 2nd poom in 2005. However, we moved so now he has to essentially start over. It will take him another 2 1/2 years to be able to test for 3rd degree at his new school. It might work out though because once he tests he will actually be testing for his third degree and not another poom. In the past he has always said he would love to teach TKD when he is older. He is also a very talented musician so he is unsure of his future. However, he does believe that TKD will always be a part of his life. If he misses his workouts he said he just does not feel right. Anyway, I do think 5 is a bit young for a black belt. However, I do think children can be as dedicated as an older person. We never pushed my son to continue with TKD. He continued because he absolutely loves it. I'm so happy that we decided out of the blue to put him in TKD years ago because of disipline issues. It has truly helped him become a wonderful, disiplined person.
Welcome to MT, allboyz. You should go to our "
Meet & Greet" section & introduce yourself formally.
I'm glad your son has had a good experience in TKD. The thing that a lot of us here are lamenting about is that so many kids are not well trained & yet are BB's because their folks check cleared. It doesn't seem as though that was an issue for you.
Meet & Greet" section & introduce yourself formally.
I'm glad your son has had a good experience in TKD. The thing that a lot of us here are lamenting about is that so many kids are not well trained & yet are BB's because their folks check cleared. It doesn't seem as though that was an issue for you.
Cirdan
Senior Master
I like one of the two following definitions. Guess which one.
Black Belt (1): A piece of cloth a five year old can earn the right to wear in two years.
Black Belt (2): Someone who knows the basics of a fighting system and with a level of fighting spirit.
Hint: it is not this:
(breaking my soap box into pieces and watching it burn on the fireplace)
Black Belt (1): A piece of cloth a five year old can earn the right to wear in two years.
Black Belt (2): Someone who knows the basics of a fighting system and with a level of fighting spirit.
Hint: it is not this:
(breaking my soap box into pieces and watching it burn on the fireplace)
diamondbar1971
Green Belt
I agree with you 100%......anyone can learn forms......but for all of these
instructors that think a five year old black belt is a black belt,,,,then i suggest that they teach their own 5 year old, give him/her a black belt,
then drop them off downtown LA and see how it goes.....get real people,
they are kids, and kids are just that, kids.......
instructors that think a five year old black belt is a black belt,,,,then i suggest that they teach their own 5 year old, give him/her a black belt,
then drop them off downtown LA and see how it goes.....get real people,
they are kids, and kids are just that, kids.......
No.
jim777
Master Black Belt
My six year old just started, and he definitely has the fire (at the moment) to go as far as he legs will take him. We have a new visitng Master who is absolutely phenomenal, and at age 30 he's been in TKD for 25 years. I'd love to see my son do something similar, but I don't have to worry too much about it now. At the fastest pace available to him he'd be 11 before he could test for black, and that's too far away to really worry about now. I also have 8, 9 and 12 year old Orange belts, but honestly they don't have the drive required to get to 2nd Dan at the moment.
But we'll see.
But we'll see.
Balrog
Master of Arts
Don't get me started on this. It's a hot button issue with me.
The problem with ATA's Tiny Tigers program is that they award rank to the little weezers. IMNSHO, kids in that program should officially stay as White Belts until they are old enough to move into the regular classes. At that time, they would start earning rank, which would put them at 1st Degree at around age 10 or so. That is the bare-bones bottom line age for me; I'd like to see an age guideline that sets it at 12, but I don't think that will ever happen.
As an outsider looking in...is there no differentiation between the black belt that a child earns and the one an adult earns? Junior black as opposed to the black that an adult would get? I'm an aikido-ka not a TKDer so this is a legitimate question. My style does not issue black belts at all to children.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
I think it's just pretty much in name Jeff.
The child poom then tests for adult rank etc, so maybe a 'crossover' test? But yeah it's pretty much saying adult rank/child rank, yet I haven't yet seen any differences that weren't simply semantic.
The child poom then tests for adult rank etc, so maybe a 'crossover' test? But yeah it's pretty much saying adult rank/child rank, yet I haven't yet seen any differences that weren't simply semantic.
I personally feel that for a 5yr old to recieve a black belt discredits the arts. Myself and others have worked hard to earn legitement black belts and to see a five yr old wearing a bb really bothers me because they just can't physically do some of the things requiered to earn the rank. It's rediculous really.
I feel really bad for the students and parents of students who earn their blackbelt at such a young age. A boy in my Cub Scout den recently received his "black belt" at the ripe age of seven. His parents were so proud that he had worked so hard for two years to earn his belt. They were confused when my son of the same age said he had been in TKD for three and a half years - since he was four - and had just graduated from the "tyke program" and was now a high white belt (at age 8). I asked his parents how he did at his test and they said that the instuctor worked them hard for the whole two hour test.
Later I had to explain to my son why he (my son) was not yet a black belt when his friend was after just two years. I explained the difference about wearing a blackbelt and being a blackbelt. I told him I could order him a blackbelt online and put it on him so he could wear a blackbelt. At first he thought that was a GREAT idea!! I then said "Son, you can wear that blackbelt but does it mean you ARE a blackbelt?" It took about a week before he fully grasped it. We discussed it every day we went to class on the drive over. Finally he said he wants to earn his blackbelt rather than just wear it. I figure he will test for his Poome at around age 12. The other boy and his parents will never know the difference...
Later I had to explain to my son why he (my son) was not yet a black belt when his friend was after just two years. I explained the difference about wearing a blackbelt and being a blackbelt. I told him I could order him a blackbelt online and put it on him so he could wear a blackbelt. At first he thought that was a GREAT idea!! I then said "Son, you can wear that blackbelt but does it mean you ARE a blackbelt?" It took about a week before he fully grasped it. We discussed it every day we went to class on the drive over. Finally he said he wants to earn his blackbelt rather than just wear it. I figure he will test for his Poome at around age 12. The other boy and his parents will never know the difference...
Yesterday I went to a belt test for 2 young teens that were testing for 2nd Poom. Both have been training since they were about 4. They were talented, respectful, & carried themselves well.
When I see that, I'm reminded of what the poom rank is designed to be: A mark of acheivement, not of "time in or money paid."
When I see that, I'm reminded of what the poom rank is designed to be: A mark of acheivement, not of "time in or money paid."
Iceman some school do it right and then another 10000 miss the boat and pocket the money.
It is my goal to start a Tae Kwon Do program for at-risk youth shortly as part of my college internship field work. I have pretty much decided not to teach anyone younger than 12 years old. I just don't think young children would be in a position to handle what I teach. I also don't want the class to degenerate into a babysitting service.
SageGhost83
Brown Belt
That is a really great idea, and I hope that your program succeeds. I agree with the not teaching anyone younger than 12 years old sentiment. If you teach kids, then parents will just take advantage of you and dump their parental responsibilities on you. Then there is the possibility of them using what they learn on the playground whether playfully or more seriously:ninja:. Taekwondo is a very deep discipline and a large number of adults wouldn't be able to handle what you teach, so anyone under the age of 12 would have very little hope of doing so.
