2 years of hard training to get yellow belt, my grandson gets belt in 6 weeks?

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,224
Location
In the dojo
The thing too is we’re only hearing @Bruce7 ’s side of the story. You know the saying: there’s 3 sides to every story - his, hers, and the truth.

No, Bruce, I don’t think you’re lying.

When we’re doing kata in class, we’re supposed to wait at the end of the count until the teacher says “naore” which is basically come back to a ready stance. It’s so the teacher can look through the dojo and make sure everyone did what they were supposed to and make any corrections if necessary. It’s certainly not like training a dog with “sit, stay, don’t move.” A teacher on a power trip could absolutely turn it into that, but that’s not the genuine reason for it.

Our kyu/colored belt katas typically have 20 counts. Many black belt katas have far more. Using an extreme example, let’s say I’m doing Seido 4 kata and a black belt is doing Kanku; Seido 4 has 15 counts and Kanku has 55. I’m supposed to hold that final technique and stance until the teacher says “naore.” If I stop when I’m done and start doing my kata over or backwards, or whatever else, I’m going to disrupt the flow of everything. I’ll distract the teacher, students, etc. In my dojo I’ll probably get in someone’s way because we’re pretty cramped in there often enough. And the teachers won’t make us stand there the whole time, they’ll tell us to stop while the others continue. Or have us do something else. And that’s when we’re doing it to the teacher’s count rather than our own count.

None of the teachers would get in someone’s face or bent out of shape over it. They’d politely tell the student to stand still until they’re told otherwise and explain why. Repeatedly doing it may get an interesting reaction, although I don’t think it would get an in your face reaction. It would get you pulled to the side and a conversation about why we do what we do.

Here’s the difference between some mature and experienced; someone who’s been around knows what’ll happen and will do things to avoid problems. They know what’s important and what isn’t. They won’t harp on things that don’t matter. They know the intent of the rules and go by those rather than just knowing the rules and blindly enforcing them to a tee. They’ll know when to relax and when to be a hardass. They know certain things bring out a BS response and will alter things whenever appropriate. And when it’s something critical that typically brings out responses they don’t like or didn’t anticipate, they don’t get rattled and lose it.

Very few 18 year olds and younger know which rules are worth enforcing and which ones aren’t. They think “that’s the way my teacher does it and I’m going to make sure it gets done.” They have that mentality that they should be given the same exact respect their teacher commands. They fail to realize no one’s going to give you that same level of respect because they haven’t earned it.

Adults absolutely act like this too. Not nearly as often and not nearly to the same extent.

And Bruce, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I’m pretty sure you’re not doing things just to piss this kid off. I’m pretty sure you’re doing things that are acceptable in other people’s classes. But different teachers expect different things and have different hang ups. And some people are just bad teachers and/or just not my type of person. I just avoid going to classes I know they’re teaching, and suck it up when they unexpectedly teach a class someone else normally teaches.

There was an assistant instructor who’s classes I avoided. Great person, and I wouldn’t hesitate to pull her aside and ask for some one-on-one help with anything. But just awful at running a class IMO. Just about every time I attended her class, I just went through the motions and got it over as quietly as possible. She was on a regular rotation, so I knew when to not go. And when she filled in for someone else, I knew what to expect.
 
OP
B

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
232
Location
Kingwood Texas
The thing too is we’re only hearing @Bruce7 ’s side of the story. You know the saying: there’s 3 sides to every story - his, hers, and the truth.

No, Bruce, I don’t think you’re lying.

When we’re doing kata in class, we’re supposed to wait at the end of the count until the teacher says “naore” which is basically come back to a ready stance. It’s so the teacher can look through the dojo and make sure everyone did what they were supposed to and make any corrections if necessary. It’s certainly not like training a dog with “sit, stay, don’t move.” A teacher on a power trip could absolutely turn it into that, but that’s not the genuine reason for it.

Our kyu/colored belt katas typically have 20 counts. Many black belt katas have far more. Using an extreme example, let’s say I’m doing Seido 4 kata and a black belt is doing Kanku; Seido 4 has 15 counts and Kanku has 55. I’m supposed to hold that final technique and stance until the teacher says “naore.” If I stop when I’m done and start doing my kata over or backwards, or whatever else, I’m going to disrupt the flow of everything. I’ll distract the teacher, students, etc. In my dojo I’ll probably get in someone’s way because we’re pretty cramped in there often enough. And the teachers won’t make us stand there the whole time, they’ll tell us to stop while the others continue. Or have us do something else. And that’s when we’re doing it to the teacher’s count rather than our own count.

None of the teachers would get in someone’s face or bent out of shape over it. They’d politely tell the student to stand still until they’re told otherwise and explain why. Repeatedly doing it may get an interesting reaction, although I don’t think it would get an in your face reaction. It would get you pulled to the side and a conversation about why we do what we do.

Here’s the difference between some mature and experienced; someone who’s been around knows what’ll happen and will do things to avoid problems. They know what’s important and what isn’t. They won’t harp on things that don’t matter. They know the intent of the rules and go by those rather than just knowing the rules and blindly enforcing them to a tee. They’ll know when to relax and when to be a hardass. They know certain things bring out a BS response and will alter things whenever appropriate. And when it’s something critical that typically brings out responses they don’t like or didn’t anticipate, they don’t get rattled and lose it.

Very few 18 year olds and younger know which rules are worth enforcing and which ones aren’t. They think “that’s the way my teacher does it and I’m going to make sure it gets done.” They have that mentality that they should be given the same exact respect their teacher commands. They fail to realize no one’s going to give you that same level of respect because they haven’t earned it.

Adults absolutely act like this too. Not nearly as often and not nearly to the same extent.

And Bruce, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I’m pretty sure you’re not doing things just to piss this kid off. I’m pretty sure you’re doing things that are acceptable in other people’s classes. But different teachers expect different things and have different hang ups. And some people are just bad teachers and/or just not my type of person. I just avoid going to classes I know they’re teaching, and suck it up when they unexpectedly teach a class someone else normally teaches.

There was an assistant instructor who’s classes I avoided. Great person, and I wouldn’t hesitate to pull her aside and ask for some one-on-one help with anything. But just awful at running a class IMO. Just about every time I attended her class, I just went through the motions and got it over as quietly as possible. She was on a regular rotation, so I knew when to not go. And when she filled in for someone else, I knew what to expect.

You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
I am done.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,224
Location
In the dojo
You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
I am done.
I wasn’t saying it like that. I’m in your side here.
 
OP
B

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
232
Location
Kingwood Texas
You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
I am done.

gpseymour, I do not enjoy this website any more please take me off your website.
 

JR 137

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 26, 2015
Messages
5,162
Reaction score
3,224
Location
In the dojo
gpseymour, I do not enjoy this website any more please take me off your website.
You’re a good guy, Bruce. I’m not sure how my post offended you. I said several times that I believed it was the teacher and not you. If you can’t accept that, then nothing else I can say will change anything.
 
OP
B

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
232
Location
Kingwood Texas
You okay Bruce? That's a bit of a 180, and I enjoyed your input here

Thank you, for your post it was helpful. Dvcochran sent me a nice email that help me get over my silly mad. I normal control anger well, just a lot of things were going on unrelated to MA, I rather not talk about.
Thank you for the support.
 
OP
B

Bruce7

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 27, 2018
Messages
607
Reaction score
232
Location
Kingwood Texas
I am happy now, I quit the school. The Tiger Rock GM told me that I rolled my eyes sometimes and I apologized, I did not realize I had been doing that, that is a total wrong thing to do. Besides my apology I told him his school was great for kids and he was an excellent teacher.
I also said it was hard for me to fit into a system where a black belt knew only one form. In my first school I had learn 18 forms over the course of 4 years and did not have a Black Belt. He said he understood , because he also had learn 18 forms for his black belt. We separated on good terms. I still believe for children they are excellent, during the belt test a student did not break his boards. I was close enough to hear the words of encouragement to the distress child from the GM. The Adult instructor at Tiger Rock are excellent.

I had not realize, I had been disrespectful. I never said or did anything disrespectful. I guess what I was thinking was on my face. The older teachers were nice enough to just give me a pass because of my age and experience. Even though I never said or did anything, I think the young instructor could tell I did not respect the way she taught. Since she is not here, I will not explain IMO her bad teaching techniques.

I will be more careful about which school I join. I do not want to be guilty of being disrespect.
 

JRMFFL531

White Belt
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
14
Reaction score
5
Location
Texas
Different schools have different ways of teaching. Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes. At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.

3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays. But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means. The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not. The black belt has learned enough to be a student. It is like getting your high school diploma. I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).
What style do you study? But yes, I am seeing some younger and younger black belts. But then I have to remind myself Black Belt means your cup is still empty.
 

J. Pickard

Brown Belt
Joined
Jun 8, 2020
Messages
403
Reaction score
394
Everyone likes to talk about how "black belt is a beginner rank in Taekwondo and always has been" but this is demonstrably false. There are several articles and books about Taekwondo pre 1988 that talk about black belt being a high level of expertise. The idea that it is a beginner rank is very much a Kukkiwon idea that came after their push to become an Olympic event. I don't have a problem with how they changed their definition of black belt, it seems to work for them but it has not ALWAYS been this way. In Duk Sung Son's book "Korean Karate: The art of Tae Kwon Do" reference to black belt being high level is prevalent throughout. It's also implied in early books by Richard Chun, Choi, Park, and others that black belt is a high skill level if not outright saying it. People like to reference the fact that the founders of TKD achieved black belt rank in a year or two (sometimes less) and compare that to today but neglect to consider the total hours trained. Getting black belt in 2 years today is usually about 2-3 hours of training per week. According to Ed Sell, who got his Master title and 4th dan in about 2 years, he and his fellow students were training at the Dojang everyday all day (I was told this personally by him, I did not read it somewhere, so I guess this counts as anecdote?). In Son's book he states that to achieve black belt level of skill a student must be training rigorously 7 days a week for 1.5 hours. If you consider this, black belts in the 60's had the same hours training in a month that most students have in a year. Additionally, Kano adopted the belt system first specifically so that high level competitors in his art of Judo would not be unfairly paired against someone with less experience and black belt was the belt chosen to represent the high level competitor. I wouldn't say black belt is necessarily an "expert" BUT it should definitely not be considered a beginner.

Just my opinion; The idea that "a black belt is now ready to learn" is a misunderstanding of terms. Consider that the higher level of expertise you have in something the easier and better you can learn something related to it.
way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?
1658261274026.png
 

Earl Weiss

Senior Master
Joined
Jan 27, 2009
Messages
3,581
Reaction score
926
..............................The idea that it is a beginner rank is very much a Kukkiwon idea that came after their push to become an Olympic event. I don't have a problem with how they changed their definition of black belt, it seems to work for them but it has not ALWAYS been this way. In Duk Sung Son's book "Korean Karate: The art of Tae Kwon Do" reference to black belt being high level is prevalent throughout. It's also implied in early books by Richard Chun, Choi, Park, and others that black belt is a high skill level.....................................

View attachment 28681
FWIW In General Choi's text ranks Dan Ranks 1-3 are labeled "Novice" and "Assistant Instructor", 4-6 are labeled "Expert" and "Instructor."
 

Latest Discussions

Top