Pushing As a Technique In Martial Arts

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    As much as the FMA are known for their stabbing, slicing, and whacking, most of the close-quarter controls involve unbalancing by forearm pushes and body bumps, you usually don't push the person away because you are usually trying to control their weapon or apply yours. That said, I've been damn near hurled through a wall by a combination of a foot trap and a body bump that was apparently a silat technique.
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    The Bando Monk System makes extensive use of pushes in lieu of strikes -- but the Monk is a rather unique non-violent martial art. Where most martial sciences emphasize Hurting, the Monk is all about Harmonizing and Healing. A Monk practitioner will accept some punishment rather than injure their attacker, and avoids striking to vulnerable areas, using pushes or locks/holds instead in order to control their attacker. Monk practitioners develop outstanding self-control and self-discipline to control their emotions.

    Yeah -- I ain't a Monk. I'm a little too much of the HULK SMASH! school right now. Maybe in a few more years...
     
  3. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Dr Dolittlefu..pushmepullyouquan :D
     
  4. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Taekwon-Do has several pushing techniques. Most common among them are pushing blocks. There is also the side pushing kick. Besides these more well known techniques there are also pushes used with the shoulder against close-range opponents. Lastly, there is a variety of pushes used in tandem with foot tackling to unbalance or sweep an opponent.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    At jits class tonight, I'm going to try sparring with all the white and blue belts without pushing at all... seems like a curiously fun challenge. I will use grips and pull only.

    Is using just bodyweight and gravity pushing? In other words, would pressure from a top position count as pushing?
     
  6. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    I think we have consensus that all MA styles utilise pushes. I even teach the areas of the body to push to achieve maximum effect. Alex, it truly amazes me that you have mastered so many styles of MA over such a long time yet have not been shown the humble push except in the style of Shishi Baguazhang you are the head of. Then there is your friend whose style obviously doesn't teach them either. Is your friend a Bagua master also or is he still learning?

    I am confused by the last para. "But I think all martial arts utilize some kind of push ..." If you that thought that, why did you say "... pushes are conspicuously absent from most martial arts. ( I can't think of any which utilize or specialize in it) ...
     
  7. RobinTKD

    RobinTKD Blue Belt

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    As Chris said above, loads of pushing in Taekwondo, pushing blocks, pushing kicks, pushing palms.

    Judo? Osoto-gari? Ouchi-gari? Kouchi-gari? In fact any throw to the rear?
     
  8. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    According to Alex, kouchigari is done by applying pressure to the knee area, so there is no pushing involved. You must be mistaken on the application of that throw.

    Ps. Try doing Happo no kuzushi with pushing.
     
  9. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Any training I have in Isshin Ryu is rudimentary at best. You know that. I am happy to be able to recognize it, but I also feel it is not the art for me, having tried elements of it.

    I wouldn't say an entire martial art. It is arguable hapkido specializes in grabbing, throwing, and joing-locking specifically, I meant it in that fashion, as part of a greater art.

    lol. Just because some schools of TKD classify grandmaster simply, as the most experienced person in the art, obviously doesn't mean jack. Reigning? I can't be, as I've pointed out before, whatever I teach, even trying to teach shishi, will end up being more of me, than shishi. Hence why I've removed the dog style techniques and replaced them with TKD and Muai Thai kicks, elbows, and knee strikes.

    Shishi baguazhang, in hindsight, died with my master. His advice was to learn Yin-style lion bagua, as oaktree posted a video of, not forget what I had learned, and once having mastered that particular yin style with the other 7 palms, to then go back to shishi and refine it through that lens. The worst kind of training is that which is incomplete, and it is something which feels like your heart is broken, though in a manner you can handle. As somebody who is a brown belt, preparing for your shodan, your path has been a short one, regardless your life experiences when it comes to martial arts. I hope that you do not ever have to experience an incomplete training as I have.

    Shorin-ryu is a great system. Kempo uses similar pushes with both arms to the midsection, but enough to label it as an art which specializes in the kind of push which can hurl person 5-10 feet from the person who executed the technique. I wish I could answer why he was confused, maybe I asked the question wrong to him.

    This is very true about Bagua, but I think I neglected it in my OP because I am so used to it as an art for redirecting, rather than reapplying force. It is true that some forms do this, Lion notably, though to be honest every animal style in the yin branch of bagua has a kind of push. However, the shishi bagua I practice practices a form of throwing where you carry a strike through to drag the person to the ground, combined with low kicks aimed to control and sweep. It also has a number of stepping turns which can generate a very powerful push. I believe though that some styles of bagua have very limited pushing. I am blanking on the name, but there is a bagua style which draws from yang style, and incorporates xing-yi as strikes.


    I was hoping someone might be able to identify the more obscure techniques or styles they may know of. This thread has already been a great book, as Oaktree posted another video of his own teacher. He is a fantastic practitioner and from his videos, looks to be a fantastic teacher too. I am very grateful to Oaktree for that. This thread was for anyone interested in developing their push techniques.

    Mastered? I haven't mastered anything. I've only been practicing for 18-19 years. Takes a lot longer than that. My friend's style is jiang, which from what I'm told is fairly rare on the East coast, so I'm lucky to get to practice with him, when he does come to the club.

    Perhaps where we are having a problem in communication, and not just with you and myself, but everyone reading, is that I am not talking about the kind of shove which reorients, or moves a person under, say 3 feet, from where they were. The farthest I have pushed someone, and measured, was 9 feet, and it took a lot to do from me. While practicing another push, it occurred to me that I couldn't really recall any techniques which achieved this result in other arts, and wondered why, when I have seen so many arts sharing many techniques. When you move a person under 3 feet, I'd prefer to call that a shove rather than a push. When you push someone, they are moving as if they were hurled, in the direction you oriented. Though there are 'push-kicks' I have never seen it executed to the effect the person is moved backwards at a distance in excess of 5 feet. I understand that feels like a generic number, but to me it really is a significant amount of space. Most kicks which are push kicks, when applied with power, I've noticed tend to either significantly injure the other, or just knock them right over. 800-1000 pounds of force is a lot of energy. If not aimed properly, it's like kicking a loose heavy bag, or improperly held heavy target. I'm sure im not alone on the board in having accidently knocked the holder of the pad over by aiming too high with a push kick.

    When most styles have say (random number) 10 kicks, 10 punches, 5 grabs, 5 throws, and 1 push, I would say the latter is a bit absent compared to the rest. Compared to most other types of techniques I have come across, the kind which generate the push Im talking about (moving the target 5-10 feet from the person) are fairly rare. I've seen it mainly in bagua, as others have pointed out, some in Aikido, a little in karate, tkd, and kempo. Next to none in muai thai and krav maga, though a heavy amount in kendo.

    As an external art I am dubious toward the posts of pushing in TKD, though I would like to hear more. It is true there are push kicks and blocks, but they do not move the opponent. Many martial arts make use of a small push, or shove, to relocate or reorient the individual around themself, but few actual employ techniques which completely disrupt the center of balance, off a single point, as Bagua oft does. And this strikes me as odd, for while the philosophy behind bagua is unique, the palm strikes in it can be found across virtually every other martial art style, even if its spins, nerve-locks, and throws are quite unique. I just found it odd that something which can literally move a person in what feels like a second a rings width away isn't employed more often. I imagine somebody quite large could easily get past the 5-10 foot standard im using. 8-9 feet is what I usually achieve, and I had a lot of difficulty at first when executing a push in that I would aim too high, and just teeter them over. Among my favorite bagua techniques is the application of a tai chi technique, snake in the grass, where you step through the opponents legs, and then shift to a very low front stance, and then raise the stance level. This tends to knock most people completely over, but this is not the push I am talking about. I am talking about one where the entire body is used, or at least arms, and the energy transfered moves them back FAR, deliberately.

    The people I practice with tell me when they feel it that it's like a jolt of electricity, and water going through them. There are a lot of pushes in ba gua both utilizing stepping, reversing, raising, and turning, but I am speaking about those techniques like I just described above, in other arts such as say TKD and Karate. I agree that in TKD the push kick can push, but from what I've found it tends to either knock them over, or they run into and over it, or just avoid it entirely rather than actually move them back.

    But then again the push-kicks I do, at least with my back leg, can move a 275 pound individual in a shotokan front stance. I worry if I execute it like I do on a bag, it might cause injury. Any-time I try to do control with this particular technique it just comes off feeling stilted, wonky, and all around awkward. Anybody have any tips for the MDK guy?
     
  10. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Never mind.
     
  11. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    You're doing them wrong.

    You also ignored the other types of pushing I described in my previous post. Maybe you didn't learn them, I don't know. But they are there.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  12. Never_A_Reflection

    Never_A_Reflection Blue Belt

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    Pushes (and there are more of them in karate than are evident) can be applied in different ways--to move a person that far you need to have an upward angle to the push, rather than a horizontal push, that's all. I've seen it done with pushes from karate, but it's just for show unless you happen to push them while they are already off-balance in the direction you are pushing (or they are in the air). Pushing someone's body that far is a waste of energy (in my opinion, anyway) when I could push their head with a quarter that much energy and put them on the floor hard enough to end any threat that they were to me.
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Pushes may not have been broken out of the systems -- but that's far from saying that they're not there. One difference between a punch and a push is duration or explosiveness. You may not, in your training, have been made privy to the roles or uses of pushes within other systems, but that, again, doesn't mean that they weren't there.
     
  14. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Logically I think you are correct, and just because I have not seen them does not mean they are not there. But it doesn't explain why, giving a rough statistical overlook in my memory (its not so bad) I almost never worry about getting pushed, but with most people I deal with, from a variety of styles, a lot of the zip in my fighting style is specifically so I wont get grabbed. Throwing someone who's my size is eeeeeeasy.

    Absolutely. It's amazing how the smallest degree of angle change can result with them stumbling backwards... or them colliding into the ground two feet away. What I've found most surprising is that though impressive in the distance it puts between you and them, it does hardly any damage. I've seen people collide into shelves, the ground, poles, walls and so forth, and just bounce off. Most stunned, but I've never seen an injury from any push I've done.

    I am afraid I did not see your earlier posts on the matter. Could you provide a link? My apologies. If I am doing them wrong, don't you think it a bit base to say so, but not offer a means to correct it? True, you don't know how I was taught, but if you are doing it correctly, could you explain how you perform the technique? I'm not trolling; this is what I love most about martial arts, learning actual differences between the styles, and what works for people, and how to improve myself. Thank you for reading this, also.
     
  15. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I think you are a prolific typist specializing in overkill on minutiae you seem to magically miss throughout your 19+ years of training.

    A push.
    A punch.
    A kick.
    A kiai.
    A heelpalm.
    A backfist.

    How many moves are we going to examine how uber awesome you perform them and why they seem to be absent from other arts?

    Sorry to be trite, but it just seems as though you're trying to come off as the be-all-end-all martial artist, though you miss basic moves. Help us out here.
     
  16. Tames D

    Tames D RECKLESS

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    Wing Chun uses pushing very effectively. Gary Lam can push you through a damn wall. Trust me on this one :uhyeah:.
     
  17. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...chnique-In-Martial-Arts&p=1478021#post1478021

    No, because you make no mention of how you perform them or how you were taught them. The fact that you said they didn't move an opponent demonstrates that you're doing them incorrectly. But it doesn't tell me why.

    Depends on which technique you mean. There were several that I mentioned. The best thing to do would be to find a qualified ITF instructor and train with them since you haven't specified which ones don't work for you. There are several and I'm not going to guess which ones and describe how to do them all over the internet.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  18. frank raud

    frank raud Master Black Belt

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    On the long Mixed martial arts Sparring thread, you said you were doing kouchigari. I said no, and provided video of the technique. No response from you regarding if that is how you do the technique. From your various descriptions, it is obvious you are not doing kouchigari, and I asked at least twice for a description of how you do the technique you call kouchigari. So, here is an example of you being shown via video how to properly do a technique, yet no response from you as to whether you understood the difference, or accept that you do something different than what is done in judo.
     
  19. Kenlee25

    Kenlee25 Green Belt

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    Well okay, firstly I'm a black belt in TKD and I can tell you this, quite a few of the techniques can be used as a push. Firstly the push kick. There are PLENTY of variations. you can use a sidekick but use it a pushing rather than striking manner ( aka, use it at close range and extend your leg fully during the strike ). This is the same way you would throw a sidekick towards the knees or stomach as well....actually it's basically how YOU SHOULD BE THROWING A SIDEKICK. it was never meant to just hit like a round kick.

    secondly there is the front kick. instead of bringing your knee up and snapping at the face or chest or groin, you bring your knee up to your chest and thrust it forward. I call this the spartan kick ( THIS IS SPARTA ).

    Also, take the square block for a second. now no one in their right mind is going to be using this move in a fight ( naturally anyway. you would have to force yourself to use it ) but take it and change it into a pushing move. deliver a punch to the opponent's gut and a open palm to their face or upper chest and you have yourself a simultaneous strike and push. you think this is complicated but really you are just repositioning your hands from a basic push and closing one into a fist.

    or you know...just use the basic push or should push. you know, the same kind that everyone knows how to do naturally just by playing around.

    BUT I DO GET YOUR POINT. Although there are pushing techniques and many martial arts, most don't focus on training them as much. that is because quite honestly...what is a push going to do and why exactly do you need to train it? if a guy is about to fall over an edge, most people already know that they can just push them off of it. a push, unless combined with the force of gravity, does little damage, it only gets the opponent off of you. considering that most martial arts teach elbows, knees, and at least basic sweeps, close range is actually a martial artist's friend, so why push them back unless you are just trying to NOT fight them. which in that case I completely understand. block and push. block and push
     
  20. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi ZenJael
    I thought Shi Shi Bagua is based on the Lion system of Yin style Bagua and Dog boxing? If you mastered all 8 palm changes from Yin Baguazhang then you have Yin Baguazhang with adding Dog boxing not a new art
    I would be like to know which styles. But there are so many Baguazhang offshoots that it could be possible one might have very limited pushing and focusing on something more. I have yet to encounter that.

    Maybe this: http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/baguatjq.html

    He is not my teacher but a very skilled Yin stylist. You can contact his training group and learn Yin Bagua from them.
    Alot of the guys in Chen Taijiquan like to push people, but I think its because if they punched them they would turn into dust.:uhyeah:
     

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