'Okinawan Karate'

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Earlier it has been said that I made up a style when referring to okinawan karate. I am posting this so I can re-explain what exactly I meant when I made that statement, and supply information as to my background. When Master Murray first began teaching us karate, it was selectively from basic techniques across both Shorin-ryu, and jiujitsu. When he began instructing us, because at the time he was not teaching the entire ryu, only a portion thereof, and combined with jiujitsu, turned out a style which was nor shorin-ryu. Recently however he has begun to teach shorin-ryu in its entirety to TKD Academy (ironic name, I know). However, I have since relocated and do not attend that location anymore, though I taught there when the style of that school's focus was in learning chung do kwon. So, while TKD and its current students practice shorin-ryu, I left when Master Murray was still only teaching elements of both shorin karate, and jiujitsu, and as such, have only practiced karate (in relation to his teachings) which are from Okinawa, but not the entire system which he is currently teaching. As such, that form of karate I have practiced, while yes it is a part of shorin, is better relegated to being considered very generic, basic karate techniques. He chose these because of the similarity between chung do kwan and that particular karate style, and it would make it easier. The term acujutsu is both a shortening of the word acujiujitsu, and the origin of the term lies with master Hayes, who instructed master Murray. At first I thought I'd snafu'd, and was using a term a fellow brother practitioner had created, but it is acujiujitsu, which is just as it sounds, jiujitsu which focuses on acupuncture points, in regards to fighting. It's essentially jiujitsu combined with aikido, designed to target nerves to create locks. It hurts, and can last between a minute to an hour from what I've felt first hand. Later on, while teaching at TKD academy, he shortened the name for sake of simplicity, so that rather than teach a philosophy of acujiujitsu, he would only teach the techniques which targeted the nerves, and caused locking. In essence, he took everything but the strikes out, and passed that on to us. From what I understand, with shorin-ryu, he has branched out considerably with TKD academy. Compared to several years ago, their throws are formidable. I try not to let them within my bubble long enough to be grabbed.

    Here is a more clear summary of his own background;
    I would like to note also that Jody Paul was among the initial SEAL teams formed. Which is kinda cool in my opinion. Just a fun fact.

    The Karate I consider myself to know best is Shotokan, and while there are many techniques of Shorin I have learned, I do not consider myself knowledgeable in it, as the techniques were also blended with Aikido and other throwing systems. I would go so far as to say between the similarities of chung do kwan and Shotokan you can kind of create a shorin-ryu style, but there are still certain things which come off as just offish. I have practiced shotokan, and karate from the area of Okinawa, which hailed from the shorin-ryu school. Given how things may go in the next 6 months and whether I enlist or not, I may return to resume my training in that art so I can stop saying Okinawan karate. However, for those of you interested, here is a page
     
  2. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    In your opinion what are the characteristics of a Shorin-ryu style? What are the parts of Chung Do Kwan TKD and Shotokan that one could blend together to get a 'shorin-ryu style'? How would you go about doing it?
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    N o o o o. . . .
     
  4. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Getting popcorn... this should be as entertaining as a collision between a freight train & a full cattle car stuck on the tracks....
     
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    poor cattle...
     
  6. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Alex, Shotokan is a Japanese style of karate developed in Japan by Gichin Funakoshi. Funakoshi came from Okinawa where he had learned Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu. I don't believe Funakoshi actually called his karate 'Shotokan' but I think it was the name of his dojo. So to take his karate and blend with other systems to come back to Shorin Ryu is a bit far fetched.

    If I might ask. You claim to be knowledgeable in Shotokan and not so knowledgeable in Shorin Ryu. For how long have you studied these styles of karate?
     
  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    :popcorn: Anybody want some?

    It's like watching a train wreck. You just can't look away.
     
  8. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Shorin Ryu, from what I understand, has raised stances, emphasizes chambering of leg, and quick strikes to nullify the attack. Rather than overwhelm, they seek to deconstruct. Unlike my preferred style of Bagua, but like Chung Do Kwan, it is linear, and emphasizes use of one's hands. This kinda makes sense since it's handwork was incorporated from Chinese Kempo and shotokan respectively, while Chung Do Kwan's were essentially wing chun punches converted to the korean horizontal strike which has existed since even before subak as a style did. Jhoon Rhee created Chung Do Kwan, as a style heavily influenced by his time training with Bruce Lee, to whom he taught how to execute TKD's powerful kicks. I can only imagine what would have happened if Bruce Lee did Muai Thai. Maybe the sun would explode with awesomeness?

    You must understand that the word 'traditional' for TKD is a misnomer, as the art itself has only existed for at most 75 years. Chung Do Kwan is among the oldest of the schools, but even then it has been radically modified in its relatively short time. For example, Chung Do Kwan originally followed a curriculum of the forms of Tang Soo Do because Won Kuk Lee who founded it, was both a master of Taekyyon (the kicking art which would become what we know of as WTF style, or moo duk kwan affiliated technique) and a 4th dan in shotokan. Hence, chung do kwan. However, at some point my teacher or his, Master Khan, ditched the Tang Soo Do forms, while retaining their name, and incorporated other elements. There is a form practiced in Shotokan, which is far older than TKD, known as Heian Shodan. In this video. . between 40 seconds and 48, the practitioner executes 4 knife-hand techniques, which is identical to techniques found in the form we learned as ki cho hyung, the second form of our system of chung do kwan in NOVA. Essentially he kept the names, and took forms from other systems, changing their moves from the original to one's which would do the same thing, with movements based off chung do kwan. The fact no one has really caught onto that is really something to marvel about. I have always wanted to ask how many of the 'traditional' forms we learned were just made up, which might explain why we were still doing warrior shield so late as the 2000s, but I digress.

    TKD which is not affiliated with WTF style is basically karate with deeper stances, and somewhat alternate methods of chambering. Even in Tae Kwon Do, you can find across the styles people who chamber their hands at their chest, their solar plexus level, or hips, and some from raised hands in fighting stance, like boxers and chinese kempo, while others dont use their hands at all. None of it is wrong, but good luck figuring out not only what your teacher taught you, but where on earth it came from. I would say 100% of what is known as TKD contains elements of both Subak, Yusil and TaeKyon, with elements from karate heavily influencing the earliest styles. But it really makes sense, if you look at chung Do Kwan, and consider that all won kuk lee did was deepen shotokan stances, and raise the kicks, while keeping the handwork. This would later be altered again and chambering the hands would be removed when Jhoon Rhee befriended Bruce Lee and they taught each other. Some Chung Do Kwan schools still chamber when advancing in stances, not unlike Isshin-ryu at the chest, while out here in NOVA we learned to not chamber our arms- they already are if they're raised.

    When you understand the history of TKD, and that it's just a made up martial art drawing from other unique styles, and mashing them together (which explains why half of the people who practice TKD look one way, while the other half look like karate) it should become clear to how the transformations were made. Korean arts were slammed together with Shotokan, with how one generates torque shifted away from full body momentum, and back to the earlier practice in Subak of using torque from pivoting, twisting from one's waise, and using torque with strikes. If anything... it's kinda like saying SHOTOKAN THANK YOU FOR TKD.


    Shorin-ryu and shotokan are independant styles. I apologize if I came off saying you can take one unique style and morph it into another. What I am saying, however, is that certain movements in one art, when tweaked, sometimes begin to look like movements from another. At times, they even stop being the movement they originally were, and have become one found in a completely different style. You cross inside when you block below the waist in chung do kwan, yet in tang soo do the block originates from the shoulder if the block is below the waist. Chung Do Kwan very briefly utilized the full body momentum of Isshin Ryu but later abandoned it, and for good reason. I stopped practicing Isshin ryu for the same reasons. You need to have bulk to really get the effect you want from that art, and it can completely jam Taekyons style of high kicks. In fact it's next to impossible to perform the Taekyon kicks without awkwardness (imbalance and instability) from a deep- (somtimes called long-) stance when combined with the forward momentum of Isshin-ryu-like arts which strike through the target. The art has changed and evolved a lot, which can be a problem. Elements have been ditched on both sides of the TKD tree. WTF and Moo duk Kwan practically abandoned the use of hands at all in fighting, ignoring their own tang soo do roots, and therefore shotokan and the plethora of hand techniques they offered.

    Won Kuk Lee, the founder of Chung Do Kwan, and therefore ultimately what would become TKD, received his 4th dan from the founder of shotokan you mentioned, and combined that training in shotokan with his previous training of Taekyon he received back in Korea. He apparently learned Shotokan while he was studying abroad in Japan, at the chuo university he met Funakoshi. The rest is history and wikipedia.

    Im loving how people who do not practice TKD, but do these very styles of karate, are considering this article a trainwreck, when Im actually talking about the kind of history which honors your own arts. Hence why I posted about it. It's relevance is to clarify my earlier use of 'Okinawan karate' as being elements of shorin-ryu, through someone who had learned shotokan, shorin-ryu, and shorein-ryu, among jiujitsu, aikido and other styles, while I myself learned chung do kwan. In essence, without meaning to, I made a full circle migrating from Moo Duk to Chung Do Kwan, and later practicing Shotokan.

    TKD would not exist without Karate... so I do not understand how it is a trainwreck. Surely many have noticed the similarity between the movements and techniques of Mantis style, Bagua, and Aikido. The similarities between Shotokan and Chung do Kwan are so stark when next to each other, that Shotokan, a system so different it hailed from across a sea and country, looks more like the first TKD than what is now, today, considered the traditional view of TKD, which is Moo Duk Kwan, and kick kick kick. Think about that. The oldest style of TKD doesn't look like what is performed in the olympics, for the world theatre, it looks like karate.

    A lot of TKD forget that TKD is essentially karate augmented with longer, deeper stances, while retaining hand use and a stable base. The only way this was made possible was by mixing the styles, and altering how one chambers, and executes their techniques in relation to their position in a stance. For chung do kwan, the solution of shotokan not having high kicks, while desiring to do high kicks (because of Lee's background) mitigated this by realizing if he both lowered and deepened his stance, it would provide the leverage to execute very powerful, high, and chambered techniques. I.E., Lee figured out how to fuse the kicks from Taekyon with the chambering movement in Shotokan, to produce a new kind of kick, which you see really only with Chung Do Kwan, and it is quite noticable, even though it also retains noticeable similarities from the techniques of Taekyon and shotokan (the leg chamber is unmistakable to me). Im not saying you should do this with martial arts, but it's what I have in inadvertantly learning the styles in the inverse order of their origin. And you really notice this kind of thing, when you do it *** backwards, come into a chung do kwan school from moo duk kwan and tang soo do, realize the form names are the same, but totally different. It wasn't hard to put the pieces together once I began practicing with, and learning from shotokan practitioners.

    I'd major in history for martial arts, but GMU doesn't offer it. Luckily martial artists, at least when it comes to the interwebz, takes a lot of the stuff on here very personally, and thus seriously. Wikipedia is a great resource for the history, and basic information about any of the arts, just make sure you back up your info with second-hand to ensure accuracy.

    I come from the entangled web theory of martial arts; there is no one single progenitor of it all. combat is something innate toward humanity, and as such, it can be in every human. It is within any of us to act in a fashion which is combative. Martial arts forms when you take that fighting, and give it a philosophy and focus, such as say clubbing strikes, or grabbing, or to get high kicks. There is a reason, and it is relative to the people, their culture, and what they had to deal with day to day. Hence how we supposedly got nunchuka and sais, which are among the most noticeable icons now of martial arts. Laws ban weapons, peasants learn to use everyday items as weapons. When you consider a weapon to really just be anything utilized to harm others, you begin to see how any item can become a part of a martial art.

    A lot of what is considered 'traditional' today was overhyped nonsense fed to Americans to get their kids in the early 90s to take up the style. to a lot of asians America=easy money. Proof of point? The Red Power Ranger when the series first took off at the beginning of the decade, features a martial artist using Chung Do Kwan. Who happened to be taught by the same person who taught me. This hype is how I began with WTF TKD... like a lot of other people did back then. Just how a lot of people in early 2000 migrated to Krav Maga, and now, to MMA. Back in the 70s it was karate, for Americans, while asians hit their fad in the 30-40s... when coincidentally Japan kinda occupied everything, with their military. I cant imagine the military might, at times, teach some parts of the population the art of their homeland, when they thought their culture superior, and had also outlawed all the native Korean martial arts.

    If not only a person came up to you, but the army of an entire country, and told you that if you kept praciting your style you would be shot, or if you were even suspected of it, wouldnt you get smart and learn their art just as a decoy so you can practice yours in private?

    I apologize if I am coming off rude, but TKD is something both under appreciated, and overhyped respectively. Its history is misunderstood and convuted, because people don't know their origins, and haven't seen how their worship of founders and previous masters has effectively neutered WTF from being an art, and is why even though WTF=Moo Duk Kwan, WTF has become a sport, always will stay a sport, while Moo Duk Kwan (which despite abandoning hand techniques in fighting, still taught them as a rote part of the forms they had hijacked from either shotokan, or the native Tang Soo Do). When you consider they just morphed their forms to look like Karate, if they were particularly brave, than they could pretty much get to practice their style, in addition to practicing the Japanese, so long as they could consciously differentiate between the two. But that takes a lot of determination and love of your art. It's how I can practice multiple styles at once. I have done, in all my styles, all the techniques I have learned at least a thousand times each. Perhaps two or three times that, and that is a small amount compared to how many I will have done decades from now. When I punch with a horizontal fist, I never forget about the other knuckles I could have used, how I could have re-oriented my hand, and so on. The reason we drill is to attain muscle memory, once you have that, it becomes an intellectual game in regards to how you play with what has been memorized. You could do it how you memorized it, but what if you were to say change one particular part. If you were aware you had changed it, you would see how it was different. You can do this with differing styles.

    Please excuse the bolded text which was contained earlier. It was just fail. Let's leave it at that :D.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  9. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    You admit you do not know Isshin-Ryu, but you continue to tell Isshin-Ryu practitioners what it is and what it is not. Amazing gall.
     
  10. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Knowing what something is, as being able to define it, does not equivocate toward having level of skill in the subject being identified. That is how dictionaries work. It lets you know what something is, if you dont already, and add on a basic level what is lacking to one's knowledge of said subject. Knowing how to shoot, does not mean one can. I say that as someone with family in military as a captain of a shooting team, and a member who almost went to the olympics in 1980, as well as shooting my own first budweiser when I was 6, to another person who appreciates firearms. A lot of people know theory, it does not mean actualization. I hate speaking to someone like that, but you're telling someone of nearly 2 decades they can't differentiate between two martial art styles which originated more than the width of California apart in distance. It's insulting to me at that point.

    There is a difference between being able to tell what something is, and what something isn't. I can tell the differences between all 9 styles of TKD, and I can certainly differentiate between how shotokan and other forms of karate differ... when they are actually different. I may not be a master, so there is always room for doubt, rectification, and improvement, but please really think about what I posted in relation to the history of TKD and its roots in Karate. Considering Chung do Kwan, especially among TKD (at least out here, and in chung do kwan schools as well) often joke how we are karate, but with tae kwon do kicks. And considering more than half the techniques are grounded in shotokan, this means that over 50% of the movements are actually karate in nature. I hate playing the card of experience, but I do have it in karate, though I have no rank. I freely admit- it is not my forte. But TKD, and Chung Do Kwan especially, are, and considering Chung Do Kwans utilization of techniques from karate, that might make me in a tiny bit knowledgeable about how those karate techniques are used. I also have no rank in jiujitsu, it doesn't mean I don't know how to use the techniques or their application, it just means I didn't bother to test, and had teachers, who honored my request that I progress at a rate of per technique, instead of by belt. Except... that would be rude to ask for. I have never asked for that, though, at every school I go to the only exam I was expected to pay for was their dan exams. I would have paid white through black, but I have never been expected to... let alone asked. I am highly selective in where I choose to train, in that I expect integrity, and honor in the people who will train and teach me. As I will render to them, in kind. And that seems proper to me, and when I have a school, and an outsider from a different art comes, I hope to extend the same generosity.

    But if you are really going to ignore what my background is grounded in, what's the point in answering? It makes me wonder if you would ask somebody who has practiced shotokan for over a decade if they cannot differentiate between the styles... when you have less experience than them. It isn't something to assume. I have practiced a style which by more than half is composed of okinawan based karate techniques... and you tell me that after practicing it nearly a decade, and the roots of TKD from its original kicking style from 19 years, is a bit like me telling you you don't know a shirt from your shoes. When it comes to art, appreciation is something integral, otherwise it'd just be something we do, not something we consider beautific. You think, in appreciating arts, I can't see how one art blocks this way, while another an alternative, but just as effective way? Or how one system might have certain techniques which work better than other system's counterparts do? It makes me want to ask you if after 20 years of experience with alcohol, you cannot tell the difference in taste between white and red wine.

    If you honestly consider me that ignorant, stupid, or mentally challenged that I cannot differentiate between karate styles... while currently training with a member of Wing Chun, Chung Do Kwan, Shotokan, and Isshin-ryu at the same time, in the same location, than you sir, can eat your hat, while I eat my gi.

    Ultimately I did nothing different than say telling someone Wing Chun specializes in handwork, Tae Kwon Do in feet, and so on. When it comes to karate, most of them are fairly well balanced, and you actually have to get more specific otherwise it can be confusing which style you are talking about. A real life example is to put somone who does shotokan next to someone who does Chung Do Kwan. Without prior knowledge of them hailing from different styles, would it really be logical to think they are different styles, when that similar, or that one person is perhaps more flexible, so goes deeper, and that their stylistic differences intrinsic to their individuality might be responsible for the differences which might be apparent. I can't with confidence say I can... because Chung Do Kwan IS Shotokan. It just isn't the complete system, and the kicks have been adjusted, and the stances to provide a better base for said kicks.

    Rest assured Bill, I think you much more skilled than me in Isshin-ryu, but you can also keep it, just like TKD can keep its Oh Do Kwan, and Sumo wrestlers can keep their method of wrestling. Some things, in terms of the art, just don't work with certain body types, especially if the body is weakened through injury. Height and body size normally isn't such an issue, but how short people fight in Ba gua, is different than how tall people do. And though you might know how the other might operate, that doesn't mean you're going to do it... for practical reasons. For me, Isshin is too slow, even if it generates a lot of power. I favor speed over pull or push.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2012
  11. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Better get some more popcorn. This will take some time. :)
     
  12. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    I'm just surprised he actually got a couple things right. And that he listed a verifiable person as his instructor.

    http://www.murrayskarate.com/id,303...22267_Instructors.pml;jsessionid=qaln8yy5e12s


    Well, Mr. Murray calls it Okinawan karate. Can't really fault the kid for calling it the same, can we?
    Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk
     
  13. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Sorry to take your turn Bill. Just couldn't help myself!
     
  14. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Yep. He trained in Issin-Ryu (can't put my finger on the post) but gave it up for Shotokan. Then in post#10 is still training with Issin Ryu.

    As for Okinawan karate. Sure it's Okinawan karate! The same way I call my style Okinawan karate to differentiate from the Japanese forms. His style is Shorin Ryu. Alex just didn't recognise it as such! Perhaps we could email Mr Murray to find out more .... mmm.
     
  15. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Yeah, saw that, and edited my post to take out that line. Too late!
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  16. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Hoooooold on there mate. Knowing something is not the same as training. I have done Isshin exercisizes for about the last 3 year now. There is a large school in the area, and so we have a few people who come in now and again and train with us once a week, and they teach, using the format, and techniques of isshin ryu karate. Have I done some drills? Sure. Have I seen the kata, and learned one or two, I did, at one point two years back. While I enjoy the insight the Nidan who practices Isshin brings, the art just isn't one which jives how I operate in both fighting and self-defense. I mean no disrespect toward it, just that it is one of those I am not interested in, and don't feel is for me.


    Currently a person practicing with us is testing for their shodan in Shotokan at the end of spring. He heads our martial arts club. As I am a student at GMU, my participation is on an advisory role, though I oft assume instruction. In the last few weeks, with spring break, and my recent illness, I've had to step back on instructing. Can't do a decent split stretch while puking, let alone a flying tornado roundhouse lol. He has been training for close to that time, though one year less. His instructor is a sandan, and is not a master. I have had prior experience with shotokan karate from Mortal Kombat. Just kidding, we had a number of people who when they went to college and came back during the holidays, took up shotokan at one of the schools in Virginia (but still a ways a way) which had a shotokan club so they could at least still train. When they returned, usually with a higher rank each time (One was a 2nd dan in Chung do Kwan, and a Shodan in Shotokan about a year before Master Khan retired) they were happy to pass on the teachings. At one point I used to be able to perform every kata from Shotokan save the kata to pass to shodan. Then Khan's closed when he retired. I was incredibly dissapointed and didn't continue training in it. Much to my surprise a few years later at NVCC, the person who leads the martial arts club is also a practitioner, and it is also the martial art the university offers to teach for 1 credit.

    I think I would like to spend some time actually furthering my knowledge of shotokan, and actually practice it in the sense of focusing on it and just it until about nidan. I feel it has become so widespread because of its success in offering an incredibly good balance. Tae Kwon Do has great offense, while Aikido has superb defense. Karate, specifically Shotokan, I think has the perfect balance.


    I would welcome that. He is very close to the people at TKD, though sadly I have only gotten to meet with him on occasion, and train with him even less so. It's been 3 years, I doubt he'd recall me from TKD Academy, where he teaches their current master, Mr. Frasier.

    Master Murray is a phenomenal teacher. I highly advise anybody interested in the arts he teaches to contact him if interested on his insight. I have heard he CAN be hard to reach at times, but he gives many seminars between here, NYC, the west coast, Japan and the UK. We're lucky if we get to have him come in twice a week, and I say that just now returning to that particular school.

    The history I listed isn't off, there are just elements which are still debated today, and will be debated until the art dies.
     
  17. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Sounds good

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  18. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Got to head off for training. Watch this space! :)
     
  19. Josh Oakley

    Josh Oakley Senior Master

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    Maybe I'm missing something. Alex, you talk about Master Murray as one of your instructors, but also say you've only met him a few times. Am I missing something?
     
  20. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I do not care what your background is when you do not state facts.

    You said "Chung Do Kwan very briefly utilized the full body momentum of Isshin Ryu but later abandoned it, and for good reason. I stopped practicing Isshin ryu for the same reasons. You need to have bulk to really get the effect you want from that art, and it can completely jam Taekyons style of high kicks. In fact it's next to impossible to perform the Taekyon kicks without awkwardness (imbalance and instability) from a deep- (somtimes called long-) stance when combined with the forward momentum of Isshin-ryu-like arts which strike through the target. The art has changed and evolved a lot, which can be a problem."

    Only one statement in that is true with regard to Isshin-Ryu. Shimabuku Soke weighed maybe 140 pounds, a very short and slender man. Why would he develop an art that he himself would not be good at? So much for your claim that Isshin-Ryu requires 'bulk'. I have no clue what you mean by "full body movement," but I am not aware of any martial art which does not move the entire body. As to "jam Taekyons style of high kicks," I have no idea what you mean by that either. I certainly like to jam kicks when sparring, but it's a personal preference and suited to my body type; it is not a particular trait of the art. There is no specific 'blocking high kicks' curriculum. I don't know if you're referring to 'Taekyon' or Isshin-Ryu when you mention the 'long deep stances', but Isshin-Ryu doesn't have any. I also don't know which art is the object of your statement about it 'changing and evolving' but if you mean Isshin-Ryu, that's also incorrect.

    About the only statement you make which is correct about Isshin-Ryu is that we strike through our targets. If that is the extent of your knowledge of Isshin-Ryu (which it appears to be), you have no basis to lecture us on the merits of it. The very reasons you claim to have rejected it are not correct at all. I'm particularly glad you don't practice Isshin-Ryu, so the reasons are immaterial, but I'd prefer you not spout off about subjects about which you know nothing.

    And yes, I am discounting your years of training, because your statements on the subject prove to me that they amount to wasted time; like a wastrel spending decades in college because they don't want to graduate and get a job as long as mommy and daddy pay the bills, drifting from subject to subject, learning a little about a lot and a lot about nothing. Years of experience? If your statements about Isshin-Ryu are any indication, you need a refund, because you know precisely dick.
     

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