Pushing As a Technique In Martial Arts

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 4, 2012.

  1. ETinCYQX

    ETinCYQX Master Black Belt

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    VERY common in Judo and BJJ. Especially Judo. Quite often I will push an opponent to force a reaction. Judoka do a lot of things like this.

    I also teach a push across the collarbone with the elbow/forearm. Nice method of control to put an opponent etc into a wall
     
  2. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    'Shi' Baguazhang is based on the lion system. The last master of that style to die was Di Zhao Long in 2002. He taught thousands of students from all over China especially later in his life.

    Alex's style is 'Shishi' ​Bagua. It is quite obviously different on a number of counts. According to Alex he only had two students. Some Korean guy fifty years ago, if I remember what Alex wrote, and Alex. Shi Bagua, although less popular than other styles would probably still have thousands of practitioners. I will see what I can find out.
     
  3. Haakon

    Haakon Blue Belt

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    Sumo seems to specialize in pushing.

    We use pushing in Hapkido quite often, it's just one way to break someones balance or get them to respond and commit their balance the way you want them to move or help take someone down with a sweep.

    Pushing is used in wrestling a lot, again it's a way to take balance or get your opponent to react. Even boxing has more pushing than you might think. Off hand sport fencing (as in with a foil) is about the only martial art I can think off that doesn't use pushing to some extent.
     
  4. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    Not in the least. Just exploring the range of what martial arts has to offer, and I came to the conclusion pushes are conspicuously absent. I didn't say I did pushes well, didn't I point out that though generating a lot of force, they did next to no damage apparently?
    ...I would hope anybody by their first Dan, and within their first 3 could do those techniques with high degree of technical skill. A black belt might just be a belt, but we wear it, and its color, for a reason.

    Thank you for this, I am going to ask the wing chun practitioner I train with if he can ask his teacher what he thinks of utilizing pushes. I am not sure of the Wing Chun style Vincent comes from, but I'll get that info to you, and a better response by tommorow. However, the idea of pushing outside of a way of control to then strike the person seems to me a unique mindset for wing chun. How does one generate a push like that without having to create swing? Or drag? Wing Chun is an incredibly diverse art, so I guess I really shouldn't be surprised that it can generate it too, I just don't see how.

    This is fair. When I do Moo Duk Kwan style push kicks they work. When I try doing the push kicks in Chung Do Kwan I find they don't at all. The chambering of the leg doesn't allow for enough swing and momentum like the looser styles of TKD do. I'll play with it a bit when we practice today, and see what I can figure out.



    The Spartan kick you mentioned I have heard also called an arrow kick. I am not sure if either are its actual name, but the one I have heard I think is because it is either more traditional, or trying to be. Normally a front kick acts as a hinge motion to deliver the strike. when I do a push kick it acts as a semi-hinge maneuver, but after chambering one effectively has to kick out and up. The very chambering itself mitigates all the motion generated from the swing of striking. Hence why so many MDK and WTF practitioners use push kick from their back legs mostly. It's more of a lunge kick to me, but it's to each their own.

    Thank you Oaktree, that is very invaluable insight. I have not mastered the 8 palms. The dog style Im referring to, I believe, is not like that of yin's, but moreso the actual Kung Fu art of dog, incorporated into bagua. Which is mostly rolling around on your back and knocking them over from the ground. Shishi might have been based on Yin, there is a good chance it was if it isn't older than yin (which is unlikely). That being said, the addition of dog style I think was just plain unnecessary, which is why I took it out. Lion style already does the work of bringing the person to the ground, without you needing to also... so why jump down and join them like dog forces you to do? The boxing style is... non-existant. It uses palm changes as a kind of strike to temple and kidney, but that's difficult to really call a strike when its more of a channel as you step toward, or past a person.

    I would hope it does. It is a strong art.

     
  5. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    There's actually a lot more to sumo than pushing. It's got a lot of the same throwing tactics and principles as judo.
     
  6. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    So, what is it Alex? Are they there or not? I think, after all these pages, with people saying they're there, it should be a no brainer. These 2 posts of yours sound like they're contradicting each other. As for the other comment about not getting pushed....well, lets not let ego get to you. Perhaps its the people you're fighting aren't good or don't know how to effectively make the push work. What exactly do you mean by zip? Do you mean running away, moving back? If so, I've fought people like that many times. Usually its not too difficult to get close enough. As I've said in other threads...if you know how to do it properly.....
     
  7. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi K-man
    I can not find any references to Shi Baguazhang being based on the Lion system.
    Shi Jidong studied under Dong Hai Chuan and was most likely closer to Dong than any of his other students. Dong treated Shi as his adopted son and Shi spent alot of time
    with Dong and helped arrange his funeral which means he was treated as family or very close to have that honor. Shi has its own distinct style which differs from other styles like Yin and this may be because of Shi time with Dong.
     
  8. Zenjael

    Zenjael Purple Belt

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    That's because they do. A lot of things in life contradict themselves to produce something noteworthy. My goal for my bagua is to NEVER get hit. As a practitioner of Krav Maga, I demand practicallity, or I don't use it for self-defense. Pragmatically, it is stupid to think someone will NEVER get hit. You always do, even if your art is one which emphasizes evasion everytime. Eventually you do get hit. Some might consider it failing at their art, or being in err, but I don't. My goal is to never get hit, I still do. But as I get hit less and less, as I deliberately work toward getting hit less, than one can understand that the goals isnt one to be met, but rather a guidework to help one improve. I actually like to get hit, believe it or not. I am a masochist when it comes to martial arts, but I do not enjoy hurting others.

    Its not a matter of ego that I don't get pushed. I don't get pushed because nobody tries it, ever. Not because I 'can't' be pushed, which seems to be the assumption that I'm trying to say... but I don't recall saying. I don't stand in a position to receive a flying side-kick either. They just dont tend to get used in sparring, and if they do, it'll be a freak occasion.

    I say zip because its the only wordwhich I think adequately describes my approach, tactically, in sparring. I have known many who demand you not give your ground, but I see no reason not to. Even when backing up, in relation to retaining your 'space' (a number of people I train with, especially in Chung Do Kwan, hold that one should hold the ground they are on, at all costs, almost as if they were protecting that space. That space is their life.) you eventually realize that if one has no boundaries, than even backing up is gaining space. Giving ground is also to take ground. Hence why when I back up, it is only so that I can then strategically take their ground.

    But outside the ring, in continuous sparring, there is no space to take. You spar so you get better, and you know when you get better, and where you need to improve. I find it funny to spar with people with the attitude of spacial domination, because it's a bit like trying to dominate a room. It is trying to dominate a room, it is easier to do so with a person, if you are stronger.

    I give ground to people trying to take it, because I understand their focus is split, usually. As you say at the end, if you know how to do it properly... sure. I also know how to shoot a gun and throw a knife. Doesn't mean I'll get to use any of it, given the situation, and individual I am dealing with.

    The difficulty in discussing online is the temptation to say, "I'd do this, or I'd do that this certain way against that move you brought up..." or "You do that, I would do this" because I don't know what I'd do. I know what I've been told I should do by my teacher, I know what reason tells me to do, but just because there is that, when someone advances, does not mean I will always stick my leg out to stop them. If their body is lanky, I might go for a hand strike to jam instead, as their head might be lowered.

    Techniques are situational, when employed against others, and I do not like guessing at situations which are imaginary to begin with, when the ultimate goal seems to me, most of the time, a pissing contest. Maybe you are very skilled against people who give ground tactically, but maybe not. In your mind its running away, to the person running, it might prove to be advantageous.

    Have you ever fought against somebody constantly backing up, like in kendo? I was lucky to have the weird convolution of a past in relation to the martial arts I have. It allowed me to take WTF TKD kicks, combine them with karate, and muai thai, while at the same time the footwork from Kendo opened up the ability to constantly move backward, while still striking.

    Perhaps you are very good against somebody who gives space. I am not certain that means you are still adept against someone who is using that space as the catalyst to try and rip you apart. Likewise, bagua has similar 'jumpy' tactics where they are constantly moving, bouncing, turning. Though I have much work to do, there are a number of techniques, while walking in a circular motion, when used against a linear based attack, that effectively mesh one through the opponents space, similar to how aikidoka can get so close to their attack to control them. I bring it up, because it makes me wonder what you would do against somebody who is legitimately 'running away', somebody who has moved back enough that you will move forward, and that the moving forward itself is the setup for their technique. I wonder what you would do if the person backing up never stopped backing up, forcing you to constantly follow them, and everytime you stop, they assault you without hesitation. I wonder what you would do with someone in Bagua if they were broaden their walking stance to be nearly a front stance. It gives the appearance of moving backward without actually having done so, and when people take the bait, the effectively put your front leg through theirs. You'd think it easy to avoid, it's not. And most of what I use for fighting isn't stuff I've made up. It's stuff which beat me to hell, so I added it to mine.

    I am not trying to get into a 'id do this, you respond id do that' kind of convo... cause it just isnt conducive. As there will always be people who are better, and worse, it goes without saying, when you post online, that you will one day come across someone who is so good at backing up that it is more effective than your ability to gain space. And at that point, they have won. When you can never be the best, it stops being about being better, or winning. I haven't tried to 'win' in a sparring match in years, I just want to have fun, and attempt to get better. Maybe the people I fight are bad fighters, though I do not think so. Everyone has room for improvement, and while they are not Khan's students (who are effectively about as aggressive as a Krav Maga practitioner) I think them able fighters. I might not choose them for a competition, but I would for training partners.

    In my life, I run into about 10-20 martial artists a day. I spar literally everyday, with pads, without, and most of it is unplanned. It's the, in passing, bout where we raise arms for a few minutes, talk, and then go about our way. And I take pride that I am on those good terms with so many practitioners here, and schools, because should I start mine, I would like to in the nation's capitol, and I cannot do that with ill-will dogging me. And I run into that many while out on errands, going to GMU, or just driving down the road. I have been to over 20 schools in the area, and while many might blank on my name, nobody has forgotten me once there. I have gone to competitions, random ones, and no matter where I go, in what state, and even country... there inevitable is someone I either already know, or who was trained by somebody or with someone I have met. And that's without fail. I am not famous though, or popular. No clue on the consensus out here on the latter. It's just that's what our martial arts community is like out this way in the area directly around washington. The martial arts culture is very thick, and strangely, for once most schools seem to actually get along and cooperate. It's a bit like Foshan out here, just less recognized, and we don't think each of our styles is the best. The club at NVCC I attend, for example, weekly visits a different constituent's school each month or week, when we are able to. It is not to learn other styles- good luck if that's the goal. Rather, it's so we understand the person we train with who brought us there, and their style better, but also in the same sense where a Christian might go to a Buddhist shrine, or a Jew to a Catholic priest. We see to broaden our horizons, and for alternate points of view. Until Bagua I never thought to use the elbow strikes in Krav Maga as anything other than shields or something to swing into someone's face. With Bagua now I see the point of the elbow can be used to completely control a person's arm by placing it on the metacarpals. I would never have thought of that on my own, but it was with bagua's channeling methodology, combined with techniques utilized by other styles, that I found one of the most effective ways to defend myself.

    I just hope people forget about what they think they should do to counter a specific technique or movement a person offers. Martial arts is just not as simple as you do this, I'd do that, done. Not when both people are, as in chess, trying to think 3 moves ahead... with their fists.
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Garbage.

    Complete and utter garbage.

    Not even worth pulling to pieces.

    Kid, get over yourself.
     
  10. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    But its so much fun watching You deconstruct peoples nonsense! :D
     
  11. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    So you are admiting then that you have never heard of or done Tuishou.

    I did not read that entire post, I have a short attention span today and I am in a bad mood too so. If I were to read it I likely would not be all that nice…it is just me….no offense intended

    Train Tuishou and you will find that none of that is done there... you will also find that after "years" of training...not hours, days, weeks or months but years...that based on what the other guy is doing it is generally not all that hard to not approach this with a predetermined strategy or from the POV of the “If then Statement”.
     
  12. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi ZenJael,

    Yin style Bagua does not have a dog form at least, not that I have heard of. I know about Dog boxing gouquan 狗拳 it really doesn't fit Baguazhang at all.

    You said before Shishi Baguazhang is based on Yin Lion form. Your master told you to go learn Yin to understand Shishi as you said earlier.

    Which then just leaves you with the Yin Lion form meaning you are just doing Yin and not Shishi Baguazhang, unless Shishi Bagua adds something else which in your words
    was Shishi Bagua is Yin Lion and Gouquan mixed.

    I see alot of contradicting statements in your posts concerning Shishi Bagua. From before Yin to its might have to its based on Yin. I think I will start my own Shishi Bagua thread and use your statements made on previous threads to better understand ShiShi Bagua.
     
  13. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    1. I don't know why you're confused when think others think you said you do pushes well when you typed (see above) that most pushes that move someone 3-5 feet you wouldn't call a "push" but rather a "shove" and that you seem to be able to "push" someone back 7-9 feet. You seem to be saying you do pushes well. Nothing wrong with that, but let's be genuine, shall we? If we're going to brag, then brag, don't be falsely humble.

    2. You've pointed out that some styles (or stylists?) seem to generate minimal force with a "push" whereas I would point out that there are many factors to the efficacy of ANY technique, approach, tactic, move, strike, throw, etcetera and that these nuances are what make up the "arts" part of what we term "martial arts." What you're calling a "push" (as opposed to, in your vernacular, a "shove") is the same technique but with differing results which can come from individual strength, directional approach (angle), positional approach (center balance) and all kinds of other technical crap we could get into. What I think you're trying to clarify is How To Forcibly Create Distance.

    3. You said the "pushes" you've seen don't seem to cause damage ... what did you WANT a push to do? If you're going to contact your opponent with two-hand push to his chest using enough force to cause him damage *from the technique alone* you are no longer "pushing" ... you are *striking* ... It's really rather simple and not requiring a multi-page manifesto on how great you are.

    4. If what you're interested in is Chi/Ki/Qi development, we have another subforum for that.

    5. I think? You think you know what you're talking about. Please take a moment, back off a bit, and have a little humble pie and READ what others are typing here. Take some advice - and get the hell out of your dojo and find teachers with more reputable practices.

    Oh, and when you find certificates for all these ranks you hold, I'd like to see you post them. I've very interested in who certified you.
     
  14. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Oh good Lord.....


    I think you missed the point. One minute you're saying 1 thing, then you say another. Pick one. It's like saying "Oh its 80 and sunny outside, and 2min later, you say its 20 and snowing.

    Here's what you said:

    "I almost never worry about getting pushed, but with most people I deal with, from a variety of styles, a lot of the zip in my fighting style is specifically so I wont get grabbed."

    People have said that certain kicks are designed to push. In SD situations, there are pushes. Yes, pushed exist.

    Umm...ok. So is it safe to say that you spar just like we saw in that clip you posted of yourself?

    To clarify, outside the ring, as in outside in the street? So in a nutshell, you advocate always being defensive, always moving back, running, etc.? And don't say there is no space to take, because thats not 100% correct. One of the things that dicate what you do is environment. Sometimes your environment will not allow what you're suggesting.

    Ok

    Ok.

    Ok. Just sayin that it seems like you focus on this...ALOT.

    Alot of times. And I'd do a few different things. I'd either just advance on them more quickly, which usually resulted in them not being able to do much or just hang back and force them to come to me. However, when you're constantly moving back, understand that whatever you're throwing probably won't have alot of power behind it. Again, if you're fighting like we saw in that clip...well.....

    LOL! What?!?!?!?!? Someone running away...not much of a threat there. Assaulting me when I stop....lol...umm...what? So, they're moving back, I stop chasing them, and somehow they're going to assault me? LOL...alrighty then. Once again...it is very clear that you a) don't like getting hit, b) have never been hit, c) train under someone who doesnt advocate getting hit. I suggest you find a new place to train.

    Well, you asked a question, you got answers, you countered those answers with "I know better" answers.

    Umm....what??? LOL! You have random bouts? So you're walking around, run into someone, say hi, start sparring, then say your goodbyes? LOL! Seriously?



    But as you said earlier....if all people are doing is running away, when do the fists come into play? LOL
     
  15. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Was sure I read it somewhere but quite happy to acknowledge your expertise. :)
     
  16. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi K-man
    I don't know to much about Shi Baguazhang its not as popular as Yin,Gao,Cheng,Liang. I am sure Shi learned alot from Yin since he was the most senior student. It might have been possible a student of Shi picked up some Yin and mix and match. If you find where you read that information it would be cool to know, maybe Yin being Dong's first student had more pull on other of Dong's student then previous thought.
     
  17. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Kenpo has a whole stack of techniques that deal with pushes. Different schools study it to different degrees, but it's a significant part of the curriculum. My students spend entire classes practicing pushes on a regular basis.


    -Rob
     
  18. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Apparently, I'm quite unobservant, since I'm failing to notice all these sparring bouts breaking out around me. Of course, if you watch Fame or High School Musical for the younger folks, it would seem that I also fail to notice the crowds breaking into spontaneous, but perfectly choreographed, song and dance numbers around me, too...
     
  19. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    Every system of kung fu I have trained in has had pushes as part of its basics.
     
  20. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Oh pleeeease. Don't send him there! :waah:

    BTW, the 'certification' certificates are signed by people with post-nominals MRCPsych ... if that means anything. :)123
     

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