You people were right, I should've clarified.

[PhotonGuy]

It doesn't surprise me in the least but that said, maybe it should come as a surprise that a club allows you to sign yourself up to partake in testing (at any level) and to pay a fee for such testing (above and beyond no doubt the monthly fees you are already paying).
I am glad that with my times in judo, TKD, goju ryu and, for a couple of years, wing chun, it was the trainer/sensie/sifu that decided when you were ready to test - surely it is they who are best placed to determine at what stage you are? Further there was no extra fee for the grading itself, you only shelled out for the cost of the new belt or the cost of the certificate for wing chun, in all cases quite nominal.

The fact of the matter is everybody has their opinion on whether or not a student should be told when they can test and everybody has their opinion on whether or not you should pay for a test beyond what you ordinarily pay for classes but the fact of the matter is that every dojo has their own system and one person's opinion from one dojo is not going to change the way things are done at another dojo. Besides, the point of this thread was not to debate on whether or not a student should be told they could test or if they should pay for it.

That being said, as its been pointed out on this board at lots of dojos you don't test until your sensei says you should test. And those people who claim to go to such dojos say they would never ask their sensei when they're going to test, not out of fear but out of respect. Well let me ask you this, why is asking when you're going to test disrespectful?

 

[donald1]

I'm not sure how it could be disrespectful but i assume they're are sometimes circumstances where that may be possible.

I have a similar question (I've never asked my instructor this but I've heard other students ask if they are ready) and the instructor replies "I don't know, are you? " what does that mean???

 

[tshadowchaser]

Donald1
not trying to be a smart *** here but it means if you need to ask your not ready

 

[geezer]

A respectful way to approach this question is just to ask "What do I need to work on the most for my next rank?". The response will let you know if your instructor feels you need a lot of work or just a bit more polish.

Personally, I've pretty much given up on rank. I haven't had an official promotion since the mid eighties.

 

[Zero]

The fact of the matter is everybody has their opinion on whether or not a student should be told when they can test and everybody has their opinion on whether or not you should pay for a test beyond what you ordinarily pay for classes but the fact of the matter is that every dojo has their own system and one person's opinion from one dojo is not going to change the way things are done at another dojo. Besides, the point of this thread was not to debate on whether or not a student should be told they could test or if they should pay for it.

That being said, as its been pointed out on this board at lots of dojos you don't test until your sensei says you should test. And those people who claim to go to such dojos say they would never ask their sensei when they're going to test, not out of fear but out of respect. Well let me ask you this, why is asking when you're going to test disrespectful?

To respond to your last paragraph and question firstly. There is no overarching rule I am aware of that states asking when/if you are ready to test is disrespectful. I am not sure why therefore you are even asking that question. Unless of course you feel that at your school asking this would be seen as rude? To generally ask when you may be testing, either for logistical reasons to determine your schedule or simply to ascertain whether your trainer feels you are up to it, does not seem disrespectful in the least. It may be somewhat presumptive to be asking on your second day in the club or when you are clearly still a long ways off black belt or whatever belt is next in rank for you. Or it may just be a by-product of low self-confidence or self-awareness (which exists quite a lot throughout all types of sports and activities) when you may actually be more than ready. But a genuine question in itself does not seem disrespectful.

Regarding your first paragraph, if it is indeed the fact of the matter that every dojo has its own system, that does not change the fact that some systems quite frankly suck and are not well suited to addressing the students' needs. You are right that someone else's opinion may not change the way things are done. But again, that does not alter the fact that what is being done is being done poorly.

 

[Buka]

My students run schools/clubs and run their own testing for their students. They've been training and teaching long enough to decide how to do it and only ask me a question if they have a conundrum and want some input. For the last ten years all I've had to do with was dan rankings concerning them.

As of last Saturday I turned that over to one of them. He's been doing this as long as I have and is a better martial artist and Sensei than I am. All I'll do from now on is watch the testing and smile. I'm psyched!

 

[Zero]

My students run schools/clubs and run their own testing for their students. They've been training and teaching long enough to decide how to do it and only ask me a question if they have a conundrum and want some input. For the last ten years all I've had to do with was dan rankings concerning them.

As of last Saturday I turned that over to one of them. He's been doing this as long as I have and is a better martial artist and Sensei than I am. All I'll do from now on is watch the testing and smile. I'm psyched!

 

[Instructor]

I suppose whether such a request is respectful or not for me depends greatly on the details and context of the request. I have had students that will just achieve one rank and then in the span of a week are begging me to test again. My thought is chiefly what's the hurry? Wouldn't it better if you (my student) were good and this rank than just this rank. It isn't disrespectful to me but to themselves as they are rushing through something that deserves time and I think missing the good stuff in so doing.

Like it or not some folks are just belt hunters, they want waist decoration and wall candy to hang up. I don't know why, maybe it's ego gratification or something. I just know it rubs me the wrong way.

I don't get many like this but they are out there. Now if you've been working your butt off for a year and no test than that might be different.

 

[PhotonGuy]

There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.

As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.

 

[Steve]

I really think this depends upon the culture of the school and the specific relationship you have with your instructors. There are some schools where it's perfectly okay to ask about it. There are others where it's bad form. And then there are schools where it may be bad form, but because of your individual relationship with your instructor, you can ask questions other probably couldn't get away with.

I'm just not sure what sort of conclusions we can draw here. Too many specific variables to really come to any general rule.

 

[ballen0351]

There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.

As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.

So basically you found out there is no right answer and everyone is different. I personally would never ask when I can test and if someone asked me when can they test I'd automatically tell them they are not ready. But I'm not the end all be all and others may be ok with a student asking. I don't care what color belt I'm wearing and normally never think I'm ready

 

[tshadowchaser]

AS to what a student should work on for the next test they should ( I would think) need to know everything the instructor as taught them up to that point. Past material that they where tested on should have improved and they should still know it. They should be practicing all their forms and self defense all the time. If they are only studying what they have been given since their last test they are missing out on so much and only belt hunting.
As has been said their is no correct answer to if a person should ask to test it the question has to many variables depending on the school, system, and instructors.

 

[Chris Parker]

There have been some people on this board who said out of respect they would never ask their sensei when they would test. Some of the people on this thread have made good points, a student might ask their sensei when they're going to test so that they can work their schedule around it, or a student might want to know what they need to work on to be eligible to test. If a student is not being told they can test its only proper the student should know why they're not being told. It makes sense that a student knows why they're not being told they can test so they know what they should work on, so they know what they should fix, so that they can test. A student has the right to know.

You're not going to understand this, but no, they don't have any such "right". An expectation, perhaps, but no such right. It's up to the teacher to teach in the way that they feel is best (which might involve giving information, or not), and it's up to the student to follow the instructors guidance. There's no such thing as "rights" here, particularly when it comes to information.

This is where you go wrong over and over. What you think about the way things "should" be is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What you believe means absolutely nothing, and affects absolutely nothing. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that your opinion is worthless or similar… just that it's not really anything to do with the reality.

As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful.

That's not what's meant by "shut up and train", you know… you've got two completely unrelated ideas there, and are trying to force them together.

This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.

Because it's up to the instructor how to run their class. That's it, really.

 

[Buka]

As it is, there's been people here who say students should "shut up and train," and not ask questions about rank and to do so would be disrespectful. This one person on this board even claims that any student who asks any question about rank automatically gets a six month suspension on rank advancement. So there's some people who say students shouldn't ask questions about rank, period. Im trying to figure out why they would say that.

That would be me! And it wasn't a "claim", it's the way it was. And I say "was" because, as I said a few posts ago, I've turned all that over to someone else just last week. But, see, it all comes out in the wash, if a student had kept asking, I would have kept making it six months longer.....but eventually he would have won out. It would've taken him 44 years, but, hey, it's just a number.

 

[tshadowchaser]

In all truth I knew a Grandmaster who made a student wait over 15 years to get promoted after the student get his green belt. The student kept asking and the instructor kept putting off issuing the next test. Yes the student kept coming to class and learning but he would not stop asking about testing so the instructor kept putting it off. Finally one day the instructor said in a closed meeting with some other instructors that he could not remember when that student asked about testing. He promoted the student to 1st degree black belt the next day. This happened back in 1974.

 

[Hanzou]

At my school you just don't ask about your next belt rank. It's a sure-fire way to postpone your promotion.

Asking about stripes is somewhat okay though.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You're not going to understand this, but no, they don't have any such "right". An expectation, perhaps, but no such right. It's up to the teacher to teach in the way that they feel is best (which might involve giving information, or not), and it's up to the student to follow the instructors guidance. There's no such thing as "rights" here, particularly when it comes to information.

This is where you go wrong over and over. What you think about the way things "should" be is completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What you believe means absolutely nothing, and affects absolutely nothing. Note that this is not the same thing as saying that your opinion is worthless or similar… just that it's not really anything to do with the reality.



That's not what's meant by "shut up and train", you know… you've got two completely unrelated ideas there, and are trying to force them together.



Because it's up to the instructor how to run their class. That's it, really.

I remember it was you, Chris Parker, that said I should've clarified with the sensei about whether or not I had to be told before I could sign up for a belt test. You were also, I believe, one of the people who said to "shut up and train," and not to ask questions, especially about rank. You claim that those are two unrelated ideas and that Im trying to force them together, if they're not related than explain how? Clarifying something with a sensei, including whether or not somebody has to be told before they can sign up for a belt test, obviously involves asking a question. And in this case its a question about rank. So if you're not contradicting yourself, explain how?

And before you say I am not going to understand stuff, you don't know me so you don't know what I can and can't understand. Its hard if not impossible to make claims about somebody or to pass judgement if you don't know that person.

As for how I think things should be done being irrelevant on how other dojos are run and that its up to the instructor on how to run it, that's the point I've been trying to make with other people on the board. There've been people here who say that its wrong for students allowed to sign up for tests on their own and that students shouldn't have to pay for tests. Those are people's opinions but they're not going to affect how other dojos are run any more than my opinion is. See my post at #61.

Obviously I can't change how other dojos are run but Im trying to figure out why instructors might run a dojo a certain way or why they might have certain standards or methods. I want to see where other people are coming from.

 

[Chris Parker]

I remember it was you, Chris Parker, that said I should've clarified with the sensei about whether or not I had to be told before I could sign up for a belt test.

Yes. But I wasn't saying you should ask about when you should test (to be absolutely clear here, I wasn't saying you couldn't, or shouldn't either), I was saying that, if you wanted to know how things were done in your school, and what your instructor was expecting/desiring, you needed to ask them.

You were also, I believe, one of the people who said to "shut up and train," and not to ask questions, especially about rank. You claim that those are two unrelated ideas and that Im trying to force them together, if they're not related than explain how?

No. It's not something I've ever said to anyone on a forum. I've agreed with others saying it, but I haven't said it myself.

To your question, you really seem to not understand what the phrase "Shut up and train" is actually about… it's not really about asking questions of not, it's about the issue of over-thinking, overanalysing, and focusing on the less-important associated ideas, putting off the actual training, and thereby not getting the benefit/improvement that the training itself brings. In other words, you get the answers and development by actually putting the time and effort into the training, not sitting there thinking about frankly irrelevant side-issues.

That has really nothing to do with the idea of asking questions, particularly about rank, which is very much a side-issue, because, well, it has nothing to do with it. Asking questions has it's place… being aware of the structure of assessment and grading in your school also has it's place… but none of that is anything to do with the idea of getting out of your head, and just getting down to the training… the only place where you actually do get any real development and skill.

Clarifying something with a sensei, including whether or not somebody has to be told before they can sign up for a belt test, obviously involves asking a question. And in this case its a question about rank. So if you're not contradicting yourself, explain how?

Because those are two separate questions. Asking how the assessments and gradings are handled in the school is one thing… asking if you can be graded, or if you're ready to be graded, is another. One is so you know how things work, the other can be presumptuous, depending on the school and instructor in question.

And before you say I am not going to understand stuff, you don't know me so you don't know what I can and can't understand. Its hard if not impossible to make claims about somebody or to pass judgement if you don't know that person.

Little secret here… it's actually very easy to say such things. You're not that different, you're not a unique snowflake, you're really (at the core) just the same as everyone else… which makes it very easy to see how you're going to take things and process them. And even if it wasn't, the simple fact that you've been told it again, and again, and again, and shown absolutely no understanding or comprehension of it at all is a pretty big indication that, yet again, you're simply not going to understand. And honestly? I was right.

As for how I think things should be done being irrelevant on how other dojos are run and that its up to the instructor on how to run it, that's the point I've been trying to make with other people on the board. There've been people here who say that its wrong for students allowed to sign up for tests on their own and that students shouldn't have to pay for tests. Those are people's opinions but they're not going to affect how other dojos are run any more than my opinion is. See my post at #61.

I read that post. You regurgitated what you'd been told, and put it forth in a way that showed no grasp of what had been said, or why, in a form that seemed to be telling everyone else (who had been trying to get it through to you) how it is. And then ended with a question that showed you still didn't get it (for the record, the reason it'd be seen as disrespectful is that you're seen to be second guessing your instructors judgement, putting your opinion of yourself over their judgement and assessment of you).

Obviously I can't change how other dojos are run but Im trying to figure out why instructors might run a dojo a certain way or why they might have certain standards or methods. I want to see where other people are coming from.

That's entirely up to the instructor. You'd need to ask, well, everyone… and still not have a completely thorough view of it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

To your question, you really seem to not understand what the phrase "Shut up and train" is actually about… it's not really about asking questions of not, it's about the issue of over-thinking, overanalysing, and focusing on the less-important associated ideas, putting off the actual training, and thereby not getting the benefit/improvement that the training itself brings. In other words, you get the answers and development by actually putting the time and effort into the training, not sitting there thinking about frankly irrelevant side-issues.

When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told.

Because those are two separate questions. Asking how the assessments and gradings are handled in the school is one thing… asking if you can be graded, or if you're ready to be graded, is another. One is so you know how things work, the other can be presumptuous, depending on the school and instructor in question.

OK, now that you've explained that I see what you mean.

 

[ballen0351]

Thats strange you quoted Chris but my names on the post