Wrist Grabs

[kickcatcher]

What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.

Thoughts?

Mike

My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.

Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.

 

[shesulsa]

My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.

Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.

I'm wondering if you watched the footage I posted upthread where a girl was abducted using a wrist grab?

 

[Brother John]

What do you think about this type of attack? I've heard views from two sides, one saying that its not a worthwhile attack and others saying that it is an attack worth knowing a defense for.

Thoughts?

Mike

I don't know, one way or the other, that it is or is not a "Worthwhile" attack. Intuitively I'd say it's worth it...
BUT: I don't think that the value of the techniques that deal with this attack find their greatest value in just "How To" defend against a grab, but they work as a find beginning point, a point of reference from which to learn good joint manipulation work. It's just a position from which to gain more quality vocabulary of motion, in my opinion.

Your Brother
John

 

[kickcatcher]

I'm wondering if you watched the footage I posted upthread where a girl was abducted using a wrist grab?

Shesulsa

Yes, I’ve read your post but the video clip link didn’t work. Either way I’ve taken the scenario you’ve mentioned on board. It makes relevant reading/viewing for people involved in self-defence training.

However, I do not believe it to support the training of wrist escapes in the manner typical in martial arts clubs (I’m talking the wrist locks etc). This is for several reasons not least that I am not a believer in the effectiveness of the moves against a determined and/or larger aggressor, and I believe that most are too complex in terms of alignment for an average student to pull off under the pressures of a live situation.

In my humble opinion, I’d expect punching the attacker to be a better initial defence than attempting some form of wrist escape. Sorry if you don’t feel the same way.

The answer is in pressure testing.

 

[MJS]

My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.

Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.

Shesulsa

Yes, I’ve read your post but the video clip link didn’t work. Either way I’ve taken the scenario you’ve mentioned on board. It makes relevant reading/viewing for people involved in self-defence training.

However, I do not believe it to support the training of wrist escapes in the manner typical in martial arts clubs (I’m talking the wrist locks etc). This is for several reasons not least that I am not a believer in the effectiveness of the moves against a determined and/or larger aggressor, and I believe that most are too complex in terms of alignment for an average student to pull off under the pressures of a live situation.

In my humble opinion, I’d expect punching the attacker to be a better initial defence than attempting some form of wrist escape. Sorry if you don’t feel the same way.

The answer is in pressure testing.

While punching the face certainly is an effective method, taking someones eye or knee is also effective, however, it does not always mean that this is the best defense. Knowing how to control someone, is IMO just as important as knowing how to escalate your defense. The defenses should be able to be applied on a larger, aggressive person, adding in that 'aliveness' that is often talked about. If one can't apply their techniques under those conditions, I'd think it would be a good idea to go back to the drawing board and find out how you can apply them.

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.
Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.

I know a fairly small Korean gentleman that if you tried any of this it would get you hurt and he trained and taught wrist locks and escapes. I also know an average sized Chinese gentleman that a wrist lock and/or attempted punch in the face would not be in anyone’s best interest.

However, I do not believe it to support the training of wrist escapes in the manner typical in martial arts clubs (I’m talking the wrist locks etc). This is for several reasons not least that I am not a believer in the effectiveness of the moves against a determined and/or larger aggressor, and I believe that most are too complex in terms of alignment for an average student to pull off under the pressures of a live situation

I also know a Chinese Qin Na master that is fairly slight of build that would probably not agree. And I know a small Chinese Yang Style Tai Chi master I would not want to try any of this on either and he also has trained in escapes from locks of all types and applying them as well, he however is not big on punching, Tai Chi is most decidedly defensive, not offensive. But then I also have meant a Chen style master that would put a serious hurting on anyone that tried to punch him in the face, most likely with a Qin Na, fajing, kicks, strikes or any combination thereof. And then there is a Wing Chun person of my acquaintance...but I think I have said enough

To an incredibly well trained Martial artist size of opponent or attacker is fairly unimportant.

 

[shesulsa]

While punching the face certainly is an effective method, taking someones eye or knee is also effective, however, it does not always mean that this is the best defense. Knowing how to control someone, is IMO just as important as knowing how to escalate your defense. The defenses should be able to be applied on a larger, aggressive person, adding in that 'aliveness' that is often talked about. If one can't apply their techniques under those conditions, I'd think it would be a good idea to go back to the drawing board and find out how you can apply them.

Mike

Not all recipients of a wrist grab can take out a large man's knee nor effectively punch him in the face, either.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

My personal view is that learning grab escapes beyond "punch them in the face hard" (-the Universal defence, lol) is a waste of time. Fights and pre-fight confrontations are dynamic situations and very rarely involve wrist grabs in anything remotely resembling the typical MA drill most of us here have practiced. Grab scenarios seem to exist only in martial arts clubs where people want to pass wrist locks or similar defences as particularly relevant in self-defence. It's a case of trying to make 'reality' fit your art rather than vice versa. it's contrived drivel.

Sorry to sound so negative towards those twisty-wristy party trix.

May I ask what your size and weight are? If you are a woman, than you should know that many assaults and abductions are initiated via wrist grab. Also, I have taught young women (teens) grab releases to the point of real proficiency. Now they are more likely to be able to ESCAPE. BTW, teaching a twelve year old to punch a 6 foot 2 inch attacker in the face as their first and last defense against a wrist grab is irresponsible and suicidal, IMO.

Just because YOUR experiences have not shown you any need for such training, does not mean that it is not valuable ore even ESSENTIAL.

 

[still learning]

Hello, If you are not training to escape from wrist grabs? You may want to find someone who knows how?

From the singe hand grabs,double hand grabs, to learn how to escape,to strikes, and locks. Even with your arm/wrist is bent to the back of your body...do you know how to escape this?

Being grab is very common by wrist. (this is a must learn for our kids class!).

We have many different choices of moves for escaping and striking and is one of the first things we teach our new students. (Escapes and controls) and (Advance Grabs). Ten of each.

So many things to learn..so little time...they say it takes two thousand to three thousand times doing the escapes before it becomes a part of you naturally. ........got the numbers? .............Aloha

PS: The shake hand moves? .....do you practice them?

 

[Carol]

I wear a steel bangle on my right wrist...as do most Sikhs.

There is a spiritual reason for this, as well as a traditional reason...which are beyond the scope of the topic.

However, I consider it to be one of my "weapons", as it nearly prevents an attacker from getting a secure hold of the wrist on my dominant side.

It can also (potentially) inflict a bit of pain on the attacker....the tighter the attacker's grab is on my right wrist, the more likely it is that the attacker's skin will be pinched by the bangle as I free it from the grasp.

Regrettably, I learned this by unintentionally injuring a fellow student.

 

[MJS]

Not all recipients of a wrist grab can take out a large man's knee nor effectively punch him in the face, either.

Very true! We have many tools available to us, but hitting the face or the knee may do nothing except make the person on the receiving end of that more angry than they already are. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the biggest fan of the one punch-one kill mentality.

 

[MJS]

Just because YOUR experiences have not shown you any need for such training, does not mean that it is not valuable ore even ESSENTIAL.

Well said! Thank you!

 

[7starmantis]

Very true! We have many tools available to us, but hitting the face or the knee may do nothing except make the person on the receiving end of that more angry than they already are. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not the biggest fan of the one punch-one kill mentality.

Thats a good point, but the reality is that if you can't attack the attacker in an effective way, I dont know that a grab release is going to be very effective either. Taking out a knee is all about strategy and angles as is most attacks. I'm am most certainly not a fan of the "one hit kill" mentality as thats pretty much opposite from my systems principles, but it doesn't have to be just one hit or punch. If you can react to the grab you can effectively throw 6, 7 or 8 attacks (strikes, knees, kicks, shoulders, etc) within the time it takes to release a grab. Also, you have acomplished two things, you have released the grab and (hopefully) ended the engagement.

In a real self defense situation you can't worry about the attacker, you just worry about yourself, and "flipping the switch" to fighting for your life can be quite effective even agaisnt bigger attackers if you train porperly.

Now, as has been pointed out, there are times you dont want to attack (friedn, customer) and grab releases are quite effective. But in a true life or death self defense situation, if they put their hands on you and attempt to move you or control you, simply releasing their grip may just open you up for some devistating reactions.

7sm

 

[scottcatchot]

In my training and experience, the wrist escape is just the initial response leading into other techniques or locks/submissions. It is true that in self defense I lean toward the "whatever it takes' mentality.

 

[DavidCC]

I think many child abductions that take place could not have happened even 20 feet from where they did happen. That is, if the child could break free, run around the corner or out the door or whatever, where they can be seen and heard (yelling for help) they will have successfully prevented their abduction. This is not true every time but I think many abductions do happen near crowded places but just in an isolated spot. So if an 8 yr old girl has learned a wrist release that gives her a couple of seconds to run towards other people, it is well worth teaching.

Also I think it is worthwhile to practice escaping them so that you will become better at applying them.

 

[kickcatcher]

There are too many specific counter-arguments to my post presented so I cannot respond specifically on each point. However there is a general theme which I can respond to.

I appreciate that my viewpoint on wrist locks goes against the grain in mainstream martial arts where so many people spend so much time practicing and place so much confidence on wrist escapes. I am not trying nor hoping to convert people.

However, I will present my reasons for thinking that typical grab-escapes is all a load of silliness:

When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone – yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions. Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive.

If someone is being abducted then they are REALLY in DEEP danger, they are almost certainly going to have an adrenaline dump which is likely to significantly reduce their dexterity among other things, and they are almost certainly weaker than their attacker. And people want them to apply sophisticate grab escapes.

In a similar vein, it doesn’t concern me if some far eastern master of some twisty-wristy art is highly proficient at grab escapes. Such people are not the typical student nor the typical victim. Should we say that if someone grabbed Mike Tyson’s wrist and he could just punch them lightly and escape therefore validation the “universal escape” concept? Of course not, same logic applies.

 

[shesulsa]

When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone – yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions.

The escape from a wrist grab and the application of a wrist joint lock are not the same thing. The escape from a wrist grab involves the science of biology and of simple levers and fulcrums. Will it work 100% of the time? No, but it works more often than most people would have you believe. And a small person striking a larger, stronger person in the face, gut or nuts will only serve to piss that person off more, hence the response must be quick, violent and specific. Moreover, once the grab is on, it's on and quick releases must be that - quick and early before the grab is totally on. This works most of the time. My stick-thin girl scouts can escape my full wrist grab and I'm stronger than some men.

Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive.

Fighting back is most assuredly the way to survive and an abductee needs many tools - one is escape from grabs and not just wrist grabs.

If someone is being abducted then they are REALLY in DEEP danger, they are almost certainly going to have an adrenaline dump which is likely to significantly reduce their dexterity among other things, and they are almost certainly weaker than their attacker. And people want them to apply sophisticate grab escapes.

Wrist grab escapes are hardly sophisticated, they are, again, the simple science of levers and fulcrums and when practiced often, easier to pull off than an effective punch to ... anywhere, really.

In a similar vein, it doesn’t concern me if some far eastern master of some twisty-wristy art is highly proficient at grab escapes. Such people are not the typical student nor the typical victim. Should we say that if someone grabbed Mike Tyson’s wrist and he could just punch them lightly and escape therefore validation the “universal escape” concept? Of course not, same logic applies.

Does it? I think you oversimplify some important points: 1. that the typical victim is likely to be an expert at anything and 2. that everyone can punch more effectively than they can escape.

 

[kickcatcher]

Shesulsa, we clearly come from martial arts/combat viewpoints which are extremely different and I appreciate that neither of us is likely to convince the other any time soon.

I am familiar with typical grab escapes and agree that they can work within a compliant setting. I do view them as joint manipulations (by and large) but am not confusing them with other locks etc. We are both talking about circling towards the thumb/forefinger gap etc.

The question is are they effective in a real situation and secondly, are they the optimum response, particularly in cases of attempted abduction where the abductee is far weaker than the abductor.
?

I have no desire to subject 6 year old girls to the trauma of pressure testing that would be reasonable for adults. However, I believe that the physical act of abducting a child, at least for the average grown male, is easy. Hypothetically, if I were to walk into a room (such as a dojo) and attempt to abduct one of the children, starting by grabbing an arm, it would be easy (assuming no one came to their aid, lol). With or without grab escape training (sorry). That is the harsh truth.

The question then becomes what methods the child should attempt in order to stop the adult abducting them. I’m sure we both agree that they should do something.

The question becomes very hypothetical – we cannot test this within acceptable social boundaries. But my feeling is that the victim screaming, lashing out, struggling etc is far more likely to result in an aborted abduction than attempting those typical grab escapes. Sorry.

 

[TigerWoman]

When I say that the universal defence (lol) is a punch in the face, by which I really mean lots of strikes/screams/flailing etc, people counter by supposing situations where the person being grabbed is somehow too weak to strike someone – yet the same argument supposes that that same weakling is able to apply a joint manipulation and that in doing so they will not escalate the situation exactly as striking out does. That is not logical IMO and goes against some studies of abductions. Most abductions by strangers result in death. There simply should not be the worry of escalation. At least one study which I saw reported said that fighting back at the initial abduction attempt was the surest way to survive.

I agree with what you stated. The best defense is to incapacitate your attacker from doing any further harm as quickly as possible. The best defense is to strike him first. I wouldn't worry about the arm grabbing my wrist. I train the women as I have been trained, to strike first when you first feel the wrist being grabbed. We do a sidekick to the knee. We train positioning on the knee with pressure, train focus and striking on the bag. Then we block for a possible incoming punch from the other arm of the attacker and knee the groin. We train the knees on the bag. Then we go through the whole action alot on each other until it is ingrained. We have wrist release ie a collar grab, for higher level (TKD) but it also involves an arm lock/elbow break and on a larger guy not too practical.

I would think that a wrist release may not lead to where I would want to be in a conflict. It would give the attacker time to do something else, why do that? I tried to release the wrist of my master once, granted he has strong wrists, and couldn't. It does give me pause though, as a first defense. He is actually a smaller build, and unlike the guy on the street has martial arts training but how many men have stronger wrists than myself? I would venture a good many and I'm stronger than the average woman. I would rather kick the knee out/knee groin as I have been trained that way. Even for a child, a wrist release could result in a further grab. I have seen children break boards easily and could break a knee or they could be taught to stomp the instep. I just wouldn't put all of their marbles into a wrist release to be able to run away. TW

 

[bydand]

You have to make up your mind Kickcatcher, your first post said that "wrist grabs seem to only exist in martial art clubs" and that they are "contrived drivel", then in this latest post you say that if you walked into a room and attempted to abduct a kid, "starting by grabbing an arm, it would be easy." Do you really have some valid point to bring up, or are you just trying to stir the pot in the forum?

You keep making reference to sophisicated grab excapes. Nobody is saying that they are training people (or are in training) to use the more complex moves, they don't have to be complex OR sophisicated; very simple gross motor moves work well, no need for high dexterity. Yes, I have used them, yes they work! Do I advise that it should be the ONLY thing taught to not only kids, but adults? NO, that would be utter foolishness, but they are a very valid start. punching somebody in the face that has already crossed over that social line and grabbed you is just going to get you hurt worse by ticking them off.