Rear Bear Hug Defense

[MJS]

On another forum, there is a discussion on a self defense technique against a rear bearhug from behind, arms free. Although the technique in question is from Kenpo, I wanted to post it here, in the General section, so as to get feedback from everyone. For reference sake, I'll post a written description as well as a video clip.

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1. An attacker at 6 o'clock grabs you in a bear hug; yet leaves your arms free.
2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock into a horse stance as you execute right and left outward overhead elbow down onto your attacker's forearms.
3. Squat down onto your attacker's right knee. Bend over and with both hands, grab your attacker's ankle. Shift into a concave stance as you pulls up on your attacker's right ankle to force them to fall onto their back. Note: The pull and squat could break your attacker's knee due to the counterforce prior to the fall. In addition, the concave stance is used to protect yourself from pulling your attacker's leg into your groin.
4. Twist your attacker's right ankle clockwise as you have your right leg circle clockwise (preferably striking them in the face if possible) landing to 7:30 into a right reverse close kneel stance.
5. Pivot into a right forward bow as you complete the twisting of your attacker's right ankle.
6. While maintaining your grab on your attacker's right ankle with your right hand, step your left foot to 4:30 into a left close kneel stance parallel to your attacker's body as you have your left hand grab your attacker's left wrist.
7. Support your weight on your left leg as you cock your right leg high.
8. Pull up on your attacker's wrist and leg as you execute a right heel stomp to your attacker's lower spine. 9. Sweep your attacker's left arm out as you go into a right front crossover to 4:30 and cross out.

On the other forum, there of course, are mixed thoughts, with some Kenpoists saying that in a street scenario, they'd never do this, while some of the Kenpo die hards, say that its not that the technique itself is bad, just that there're bad teachers, and unless you're learning it under someone who really knows how to do it, of course, it'll appear to be a poor technique.

 

[wildcat91]

Certainly depends on the size of the attacker. I always think in Self defence you should go over plan A, Plan B and Plan C.

Plan B migh be the sprawl forward with a kick to the groin.

 

[Cyriacus]

It has Weaknesses.

Good Concept, I will certainly tweak it around a bit and make something to slot away in My Tertiary Memory Banks.
Poor Execution.
1: Its too unlikely someone would Grab You under Your Arms. But hey, Ill roll with that.
2: The Attacker Steps into a Long Stance, which is what makes this Possible. Were He in a Shorter Stance, it would be less effectual, by far. Find Me someone who will step into a Long Front Stance and Bearhug You under the Arms and Ill be Impressed. Kinda.
3: He assumes He will react immediately. There is a moment of Hesitation when an Engagement commences if You do not see it coming. But, ASSUMING this worked immediately, even with the delay itd be fine.
4: This is the big one. If someone does this, its because either A: Theyre BIG, or B: They have a buddy or so waiting to Hit You from the Front, and so spending time Takedowning the Grabber is wasteful, and self-condemning. Particularly since Your Whole Body is Immobilised doing the Takedown.
5: He assumes the Attacker wont pull back, taking them both to the ground. Then back to Issue 4. Becuase either A: Hell just pull You into His Mass, and Compress You. Or B: Youll get a few Kicks/Bashes from a Weapon/A Guy mounting You.


Thoughts?

 

[mook jong man]

Sink your weight down as you stamp on his foot .
The end.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut. Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin. Restomp the groin. Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.

 

[MJS]

Certainly depends on the size of the attacker. I always think in Self defence you should go over plan A, Plan B and Plan C.

Plan B migh be the sprawl forward with a kick to the groin.

Definately agree with the size of the other guy. Some of the concerns from at least 1 other guy, was that against a grappler, this tech. probably isn't the wisest one out there. To be honest, I agree with that...lol.

 

[MJS]

It has Weaknesses.

Good Concept, I will certainly tweak it around a bit and make something to slot away in My Tertiary Memory Banks.
Poor Execution.
1: Its too unlikely someone would Grab You under Your Arms. But hey, Ill roll with that.
2: The Attacker Steps into a Long Stance, which is what makes this Possible. Were He in a Shorter Stance, it would be less effectual, by far. Find Me someone who will step into a Long Front Stance and Bearhug You under the Arms and Ill be Impressed. Kinda.
3: He assumes He will react immediately. There is a moment of Hesitation when an Engagement commences if You do not see it coming. But, ASSUMING this worked immediately, even with the delay itd be fine.
4: This is the big one. If someone does this, its because either A: Theyre BIG, or B: They have a buddy or so waiting to Hit You from the Front, and so spending time Takedowning the Grabber is wasteful, and self-condemning. Particularly since Your Whole Body is Immobilised doing the Takedown.
5: He assumes the Attacker wont pull back, taking them both to the ground. Then back to Issue 4. Becuase either A: Hell just pull You into His Mass, and Compress You. Or B: Youll get a few Kicks/Bashes from a Weapon/A Guy mounting You.


Thoughts?

All valid points. Of course keep in mind, were some of the 'die hards' to hear this, they'd be defending this move 'til they're blue in the face...lol. But thats why I posted this here...to get the feedback from others. As a Kenpoist myself, I'm one of those that often questions many things. Sorry, but some stuff just doesnt make sense...lol. As for your reply:

1) Agree. One would assume an over the arm grab would be the #1 choice to limit what the victim can do, but may as well be ready for anything.

2) Agree

3) IMO, I think dealing with what I'll call the 'initial attack' is important. What I'm talking about is what happens right after the grab....the push forward, the pull back, the lift, etc. Were this guy pushed, he probably isnt going to be in the best position for the rest of the move.

4) Yup.

5) Yup, yup, yup!!! I can't help but think back to some of the UFCs with Dan Severn, and Mark Kerr and Coleman. Severn did more suplexes than I can count...lol. Yes, I know, not everyone we face is going to be a highly trained killer, but wrestling is taught in many highschools/colleges, in addition to MMA being very popular.

 

[MJS]

Sink your weight down as you stamp on his foot .
The end.

Amen!! K.I.S.S.....thats what its all about.

 

[MJS]

Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut. Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin. Restomp the groin. Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.

Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!! While its not the same thing, well, here ya go.

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[Bill Mattocks]

Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!! While its not the same thing, well, here ya go.

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Yep, same thing. I was joking around, but in our dojo, we practice several techniques for dealing with rear bear hug. One is as described by the O/P, reach under and grab attacker's leg. One is stomp the foot, also described above. One is the higi no ato tsuki elbow strike I described. Another is the 'dusting off the hips' that I saw in the Krav Maga video you posted. There are lots of options. Basically, anyone grabbing you in a bear hug is beyond stupid. It's like the worst thing ever. Even when I was in high school, I remember seeing a guy grab someone like that in the hallway. The guy who got grabbed immediately dropped his center of gravity and ran backwards into the nearest wall. Then he did it again. The attacker was going 'oof, oof' with every hit. Then the victim jerked his head back into the attacker's nose, turning it to mush. By this time, the attacker had let go and was laying on the hallway floor, crying and bleeding. Victim walked away. He forgot to stomp the groin before he left, though.

 

[mook jong man]

Agreed, agreed, agreed!!!!! While its not the same thing, well, here ya go.

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With one like that , we would stamp on the foot , pivot and then do a back elbow strike into the solar plexus or gut.
Sometimes just the pivot alone will be enough to off balance the attacker.
We will not bend over though like in the video , we try to keep the back straight so that we can pivot on our axis and get a good sharp rotation of the whole body.

 

[MPC1257]

Check the 1st minute or so to see another way to defense against rear bear hugs.

 

[mook jong man]

Also with the arms free bear hug sometimes the attacker doesn't use proper grips and you can manage to peel a finger off of his grip and bend the crap out of it .

 

[Xue Sheng]

Also with the arms free bear hug sometimes the attacker doesn't use proper grips and you can manage to peel a finger off of his grip and bend the crap out of it .

Yup, way back in my jujutsu days that would be a great way to get a couple of broken pink fingers...or any other available finger for that matter.

 

[rlobrecht]

Arms free? He's about stupid to do that to anyone. T-stance, elbow to the gut. Backfist to face, turn and attack, knock down, stomp the groin. Restomp the groin. Drive over him with your car as you leave. Come back and restomp the groin.

Master Ken would be very proud.

Of course I agree completely.

We teach a similar technique as in the video, except with arms pinned. Drop into a low stance (we call it a sitting stance.) Grab one or both legs, depending on the stance of the attacker and pull up. You might need to throw your weight back, so you fall on the attacker, and he cracks his head on the ground.

Rick


Rick

 

[DarkShadowfax]

Seems like it works. If the attacker intends to move on to another move (double nelson, perhaps) however :/ I don't know.
Coming from a Krav Maga background, I'd lower my weight and pin the arms to my side to prevent the attacker from lifting me/moving his arms for a double nelson.
Few backward elbow strikes, another whack to the groin and if the attacker still holds on, break a finger or two.

 

[punisher73]

Too many people practice bear hugs from a static position and don't understand the attack as it would happen in real life. Someone isn't just going to hug you from behind, and I agree if someone does they are stupid. Also, if this is a two on one situation where the guy behind is just attempting to hold you for the frontal assault, you wouldn't want to do this counter either.
During my time in the jail, I would see this type attack all the time. A person would come up behind someone with a good amount of momentum as they grabbed driving the person forward and many times bending them at their waist. After the grab they would pick up the person and then slam them on the ground. I think of this counter as that type of attack. You get hit and go forward and their weight and momentum bend you at the waist also, to counter you bend down to prevent being picked up and then do the takedown. If you can't deal with that initial body hit and loss of balance the other options aren't going to work. When you start thinking about this attack as a skilled grappler and not clueless Joe who is just going to hold you, but is getting ready to take you down or slam you it gives you more options to deal with it. Is it ideal? Probably not, but if you find yourself in that position and bent forward, you better have a tool in the toolbox to fix it.

This takedown is also taught in Gracie JJ and BJJ and several other grappling arts (including the Marines in their MCMAP training). Here is a video from the grappling perspective, notice the hands slapping the ground to counter any possible pick up attempts.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay, when someone does a bear hug what do they want to do?

Almost always they will want to lift you up and slam your *** down. (except if it is a friend just trying to control you)
That is the big issue with the defense here is that the attacker because of the leg going so far forward is not trying to
lift and slam. Hence why the leg is so far forward which allows for the attack to work.
The attackers attack because of that is fairly unrealistic!

What is very important when being bear hugged whether arms in or out is that you establish a solid base and sink your weight down so that you are more
difficult to be thrown or taken down. Notice in these BJJ video clips how a solid base is established.

Arms out

Arms in

From the front arms in

Establishing your base is essential. Numero uno whether a rear or front bear hug. With no base you are going for a ride!

 

[Buka]

Great input to this thread.
Bear hugs are a funny thing. I find them to be defended in more different ways than most other attacks. I think maybe the size, and, more importantly, the attitude, of the attacker has a lot to do with it. As well as the size, strength, attitude and agility of the defender.

But I like the ones Punisher posted. I like slapping the ground and scrambling for the foot, because I'm agile in a low position. And I love the MCMAP method of dealing with the hold, but practicing it over and over makes for a really long day.

Some ways that don't work well for me work great against me. I know that's probably true for any technique/attack, it just seems more to me in bear hugs.

 

[thegatekeeper]

if your hands are free, isn't it more effective to rear elbow him in the face? or rear headbutt?