Wing Chun Boxing

[Juany118]

^^^^^ Absolutely Ip Man taught things differently throughout his career. Anyone that says otherwise is delusional. What he taught in his younger years in Foshan is different from what he taught when he moved to Hong Kong, which is different from what he taught after years in Hong Kong.

Not only that but a good Sifu, while teaching everyone the core, will teach students to their strengths, weaknesses and needs. It can be as big a difference as the fact one of my classmates doesn't get taught much in the way of kicking techniques because of a nervous system disorder that effects his legs or a bit more subtle as my Sifu let's me work a bit more Chin Na due to my occupation. The later definitely comes out in my sparring where I am more apt to transition to standing submissions and take down where as other students tend to stick to striking. The same happens in weapons sparing where I tend to go for disarms more often to then open the way for attack. The others tend to simply defend and attack.

 

[LFJ]

Not only that but a good Sifu, while teaching everyone the core, will teach students to their strengths, weaknesses and needs.

This can be done, by a good sifu, without fundamentally changing the system and ending up teaching contradictory understandings that include non-functional methods that are missing hugely important elements for dealing with obviously common aspects of fist fighting like outside range, you know, the range you have to go through to even get a chance to attempt chi-sau stuff.

 

[KPM]

Let me see if I can summarize the "gist" of things here so far, since we have taken a bit of tangent recently.

When you look at the typical Wing Chun guy engaging in sparring against a non-Wing Chun fighter, they often don't do too well. For the most part this appears to be due to a lack of any kind of "long range game." The most common thing you see is that they simply rush forward to get to "Wing Chun range" and no real ability to conduct the fight at long range. I showed several videos illustrating this. And if they can't do this, they often resort to a form of "sloppy kickboxing" to survive.

So my thesis here has been that a great way to "update" or "evolve" or "modernize" Wing Chun is to blend it with western Boxing. WB typically teaches a good "long range game." Boxers learn to manage distance and keep from getting hit when they don't want to. This would involve changing the Wing Chun mechanics and footwork to match Boxing, but still retain the Wing Chun defensive structures/techniques and Chi Sau skills. This would bring to Wing Chun a very mobile and evasive "long range game" and greatly increase sparring/fighting skills. This would bring to Boxing excellent skills at close range for trapping and hitting while avoiding getting tied up in a clinch. The result would be neither "just Boxing" or "Classical" Wing Chun. The result would be "Wing Chun Boxing". Rackemann's videos that I shared show a good example of this. When he gets to close range he is clearly using Wing Chun skills and is not "just boxing." As I said before, this may not be for everyone. I would not want to see "classical" Wing Chun go away!

Another problem you find in Wing Chun as well as almost all "traditional" arts is one of "in-breeding." When training they always train against fellow classmates. So a Wing Chun guy is nearly always learning to fight against another Wing Chun guy. Sometimes the partner may try to throw some semblance of a boxing punch, but it typically is pretty poor and gives the Wing Chun guy a false sense of how well he would do against a boxer. And given that the typical mugger or attacker on the street is going to likely be doing something closer to Boxing than to Wing Chun, and given that open competitions are going to very likely be against someone doing a version of Kickboxing.....training good boxing as part of Wing Chun just makes good sense. Because you end up training against someone that can actually DO boxing and get a better result.

The only naysayer really so far has been LFJ. He stated that VT has a "long range strategy". I wouldn't disagree with this. But having a "long range strategy" for getting to your preferred range is not the same thing as having an actual "long range game." So I described exactly what I meant by a "long range game" and LFJ replied that VT did everything I described. I can only take that to mean that LFJ believes that VT has a "long range game" as I defined it and therefore has no need of merging with boxing. However, he wouldn't elaborate on what he thinks and he couldn't produce a video showing a guy fighting with Wing Chun at long range. After lots of searching I couldn't find one either. So what he is saying is just theoretical at this point since he can't back it up.

Wing Chun and Boxing can be merged to varying degrees. I would say Paul Rackemann is on one end of the spectrum....basically doing Boxing with Wing Chun "hands" and adapted Chi Sau skills. Mark Phillips is on the other end of the spectrum...basically still doing "classical" Wing Chun, but doing Boxing at longer ranges to get to his Wing Chun. But my guess is that if Phillips was competing and sparring more (or his students were) what they do would look more and more like what Rackemann does.

 

[LFJ]

The only naysayer really so far has been LFJ.

Not even once did I say nay.

I said adding anything that works to something that doesn't will be good for that something that doesn't.

So, I support you in trying to fill your gaps, though it'd probably be more effective to just go with WB that you already know works, than to mix it with what you acknowledge doesn't.

YMVT already works, though.

Boxers learn to manage distance and keep from getting hit when they don't want to. This would involve changing the Wing Chun mechanics and footwork to match Boxing, but still retain the Wing Chun defensive structures/techniques and Chi Sau skills.

YMVT also manages distance and keeps from getting hit with VT mechanics and footwork.

I can only take that to mean that LFJ believes that VT has a "long range game" as I defined it and therefore has no need of merging with boxing. However, he wouldn't elaborate on what he thinks

I elaborated in another post you refuse to read for some odd reason.

and he couldn't produce a video showing a guy fighting with Wing Chun at long range.

Wouldn't, not couldn't.

After lots of searching I couldn't find one either. So what he is saying is just theoretical at this point since he can't back it up.

Because you personally have no experience of something doesn't mean it is just theoretical in reality.

You are simply not someone who encourages me to share with you because you come on combatively from the drop. That's no way to get fed.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Go away. You have no credibility. You had the chance to actually contribute on this thread and you chose not to. Now please go away.

 

[LFJ]

^^^^^ Go away. You have no credibility. You had the chance to actually contribute on this thread and you chose not to. Now please go away.

Posted the link 3 times. What are you afraid of?

I will continue to post wherever I like, except KPMartialtalk.com. Why don't you go there?

 

[Juany118]

@KPM might I suggest, instead of boxing FMA? I say this for a few reasons.

1. the fact you train with three different ranges (largo, medio, corto), and the fact the threat of getting wacked with a stick or training knife HURTs, definitely rams home not just maintaining distance but transitioning and being able to function at multiple distances. As an example when fighting espada y daga, I may parry with my sword at largo but then need to close to attack with the knife.

2. At least the Kali I study has a largely upright, WC like, structure so you aren't essentially begging your opponent to brain you (which is especially problematic with swords lol)

3. The footwork, working the angles and zoning, is very similar to what we already try to do in TWC.

 

[Nobody Important]

@KPM might I suggest, instead of boxing FMA? I say this for a few reasons.

1. the fact you train with three different ranges (largo, medio, corto), and the fact the threat of getting wacked with a stick or training knife HURTs, definitely rams home not just maintaining distance but transitioning and being able to function at multiple distances. As an example when fighting espada y daga, I may parry with my sword at largo but then need to close to attack with the knife.

2. At least the Kali I study has a largely upright, WC like, structure so you aren't essentially begging your opponent to brain you (which is especially problematic with swords lol)

3. The footwork, working the angles and zoning, is very similar to what we already try to do in TWC.

Juany,

Speaking strictly to Wing Chun, you bring up a point often forgotten, weapons. Historically weapons were the first thing taught in TCMA, as weapons are more useful in warfare than empty hands. When distance is relegated to where the weapon is no longer an advantage a different tactic is required. Or when disarmed/unarmed the same considerations on range holds true whether the opponent is armed or not. Looking how the weapons work in conjunction with empty hands while adhering to the overall theory is also a way to address ranging issues, especially in Wing Chun where the weapons adhere to the same theory as hands.

 

[Juany118]

Juany,

Speaking strictly to Wing Chun, you bring up a point often forgotten, weapons. Historically weapons were the first thing taught in TCMA, as weapons are more useful in warfare than empty hands. When distance is relegated to where the weapon is no longer an advantage a different tactic is required. Or when disarmed/unarmed the same considerations on range holds true whether the opponent is armed or not. Looking how the weapons work in conjunction with empty hands while adhering to the overall theory is also a way to address ranging issues, especially in Wing Chun where the weapons adhere to the same theory as hands.

That was basically my thought. The only things I would say further is that I think it should be more a matter of cross training than trying to truly integrate it plus, if one was to chose a form of FMA they should look for ones like Inosanto Kali or PTK which already have empty hand techniques baked in, vs some styles that only focus on the weapons. The reason for this is these are already teach the transitions from weapons to empty hands and as such there is little need to figure out how to get things to "click."

You also point out one of the most valuable take aways, I'm, from understanding weapons. If I do not have a tool ready but the suspect has a bat, as an example, I am first and foremost thinking about his effective range and then deciding what I need to do next. It may seem common sense but I have seen way to many people appear to focus on "their range" first and that gets them hurt.

 

[geezer]

Ever go to an outing with someone's family and notice a really strong family resemblance between siblings, their parents, and sometimes even cousins? Yet when you point out the resemblance, some people simply cannot see it. They respond with surprise and shock, "Oh no, I look nothing like uncle Jed!"

Well, I practice YMVT, not WSLVT mind you, but Yip Man lineage Ving Tsun (Yip Man's preferred transliteration). And I see a lot that connects the different VT/WC/WT groups, even outside the Yip Man lineages. Some apparently don't. And some would like to co-opt the term YMVT for what they do alone, with the presumption that anything else is not authentically from Yip Man. Sorry cousin Jethro. There's no denying that you are part of the family!

The Authentic Ving Tsun Family:
https://metvnetwork.s3.amazonaws.com/vjTJY-1445351305-35-lists-beverlyhillbillies_1200.jpg

 

[Nobody Important]

That was basically my thought. The only things I would say further is that I think it should be more a matter of cross training than trying to truly integrate it plus, if one was to chose a form of FMA they should look for ones like Inosanto Kali or PTK which already have empty hand techniques baked in, vs some styles that only focus on the weapons. The reason for this is these are already teach the transitions from weapons to empty hands and as such there is little need to figure out how to get things to "click."

You also point out one of the most valuable take aways, I'm, from understanding weapons. If I do not have a tool ready but the suspect has a bat, as an example, I am first and foremost thinking about his effective range and then deciding what I need to do next. It may seem common sense but I have seen way to many people appear to focus on "their range" first and that gets them hurt.

Agree, and that's why I made my statement about integration of boxing & grappling as a necessary addition to fully exploit those ranges. Though there is some argument to be made that Wing Chun weapons teach middle and long range, hence, hold the key to how empty hand Wing Chun can be utilized at those ranges. The validity of this, however, will depend on how well integrated the weapon theory is. I think even LFJ can at least partially agree with that assessment based on his long pole theory.

 

[drop bear]

It can though. Gary Lam and David Petersen both teach VT. Both are said to be different than WSLVT to varying degrees by those who study via Philipp Bayer. The issue is this not one of an inability of the system to evolve but of people choosing to say it is perfect and thus there is no need.

As for other forms TWC can. There are a number of things from Kali that Sifu Keith Mazza has brought in via his association with my Sifu and Sifu Keith "cleared" it with GM Cheung. The most obvious examples are the "elbow shield", for round strikes to the head and the like, and a modified pak sau that, instead of being forwarding energy aimed in the area of the elbow, is a slap/strike to the area of the wrist to address an "oh crap" moment when someone is attacking with a weapon. The only thing that is required is that it doesn't violate core concepts such as centerline theory and body structure.

Well yeah. I don't think the ability to encompass new ideas is any sort of weakness. Which seemed to be the theory there.

 

[drop bear]

Let me see if I can summarize the "gist" of things here so far, since we have taken a bit of tangent recently.

When you look at the typical Wing Chun guy engaging in sparring against a non-Wing Chun fighter, they often don't do too well. For the most part this appears to be due to a lack of any kind of "long range game." The most common thing you see is that they simply rush forward to get to "Wing Chun range" and no real ability to conduct the fight at long range. I showed several videos illustrating this. And if they can't do this, they often resort to a form of "sloppy kickboxing" to survive.

So my thesis here has been that a great way to "update" or "evolve" or "modernize" Wing Chun is to blend it with western Boxing. WB typically teaches a good "long range game." Boxers learn to manage distance and keep from getting hit when they don't want to. This would involve changing the Wing Chun mechanics and footwork to match Boxing, but still retain the Wing Chun defensive structures/techniques and Chi Sau skills. This would bring to Wing Chun a very mobile and evasive "long range game" and greatly increase sparring/fighting skills. This would bring to Boxing excellent skills at close range for trapping and hitting while avoiding getting tied up in a clinch. The result would be neither "just Boxing" or "Classical" Wing Chun. The result would be "Wing Chun Boxing". Rackemann's videos that I shared show a good example of this. When he gets to close range he is clearly using Wing Chun skills and is not "just boxing." As I said before, this may not be for everyone. I would not want to see "classical" Wing Chun go away!

Another problem you find in Wing Chun as well as almost all "traditional" arts is one of "in-breeding." When training they always train against fellow classmates. So a Wing Chun guy is nearly always learning to fight against another Wing Chun guy. Sometimes the partner may try to throw some semblance of a boxing punch, but it typically is pretty poor and gives the Wing Chun guy a false sense of how well he would do against a boxer. And given that the typical mugger or attacker on the street is going to likely be doing something closer to Boxing than to Wing Chun, and given that open competitions are going to very likely be against someone doing a version of Kickboxing.....training good boxing as part of Wing Chun just makes good sense. Because you end up training against someone that can actually DO boxing and get a better result.

The only naysayer really so far has been LFJ. He stated that VT has a "long range strategy". I wouldn't disagree with this. But having a "long range strategy" for getting to your preferred range is not the same thing as having an actual "long range game." So I described exactly what I meant by a "long range game" and LFJ replied that VT did everything I described. I can only take that to mean that LFJ believes that VT has a "long range game" as I defined it and therefore has no need of merging with boxing. However, he wouldn't elaborate on what he thinks and he couldn't produce a video showing a guy fighting with Wing Chun at long range. After lots of searching I couldn't find one either. So what he is saying is just theoretical at this point since he can't back it up.

Wing Chun and Boxing can be merged to varying degrees. I would say Paul Rackemann is on one end of the spectrum....basically doing Boxing with Wing Chun "hands" and adapted Chi Sau skills. Mark Phillips is on the other end of the spectrum...basically still doing "classical" Wing Chun, but doing Boxing at longer ranges to get to his Wing Chun. But my guess is that if Phillips was competing and sparring more (or his students were) what they do would look more and more like what Rackemann does.

Bear in mind you are engaging these systems in a mechanic that they are experts at.

A good boxer has potentially crossed hands with with thousands of other people. That is all they do.

They have experts working on how to make this better than the other guy. Because if they don't. They are no longer successful boxers.

They generally have punching and avoiding punches pretty figured out.

 

[Juany118]

Agree, and that's why I made my statement about integration of boxing & grappling as a necessary addition to fully exploit those ranges. Though there is some argument to be made that Wing Chun weapons teach middle and long range, hence, hold the key to how empty hand Wing Chun can be utilized at those ranges. The validity of this, however, will depend on how well integrated the weapon theory is. I think even LFJ can at least partially agree with that assessment based on his long pole theory.

Yes, it is my understanding that the BJD especially helps with understanding ranging. However there is something that I think is a negative there as well. Most of the instruction I have seen regarding them speaks to the fact that in order to survive you need to get in FAST and strike first. Gary Lam speaks of it as helping to improve the closing ability and also comments...

What is true though is that if you train correctly, the Baat Cham Do will greatly improve the students closing style abilities (i.e. Wing Chun grappling)...

And

Hand to hand fighting is considered gambling; fighting with Baat Jaam Do is a kind of suicide, you must become like someone unafraid to die.

So in short while it would help the practitioner to better understand range, the way it is often taught simply enhances the "rush into close range" mentality that @KPM raised.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yes, it is my understanding that the BJD especially helps with understanding ranging. However there is something that I think is a negative there as well. Most of the instruction I have seen regarding them speaks to the fact that in order to survive you need to get in FAST and strike first. Gary Lam speaks of it as helping to improve the closing ability and also comments...



And



So in short while it would help the practitioner to better understand range, the way it is often taught simply enhances the "rush into close range" mentality that @KPM raised.

I suppose, if your training consisted of standing toe to toe trading knive stabs. To me that type of understanding of edged weapon use is of little value. While the double knives in YCWWC aren't an all inclusive system of blade work the basics are there, and rushing in attempting to get a kill shot before the opponent can is definitely not part of the overarching strategy.

 

[drop bear]

There are a few tricks to dealing with rangier fighters that really can't be labeled as style specific.

There are parts of the strategy that do not seem intuitive unless you really understand what is happening.

Rushing forwards. Or trying to serpentine your way in. Has some issues if you factor in what they are trying to do.

So this idea about style specific tactics really only gets you so far.

So regardless of how your style works. If you put a rush on a rangier guy. He can step back angle off and counter.

You think this frustration in dealing with range is a Chun thing. It isn't It is all martial arts that has this problem.

so the MMA solution isn't the MMA solution. The tactics are fighting tactics.

 

[KPM]

might I suggest, instead of boxing FMA?

I have considered that. I have trained a lot of FMA myself. And I will certainly draw inspiration for Wing Chun Boxing drills from the Panantukan drills I have learned. But there are things in Panantukan, just like there are things in TWC, that just don't see as being very high yield in a real fight situation. A lot of the gunting limb destruction work just doesn't seem very practical under stress. I have Guru Ron Balicki's series on Filipino Boxing. He includes a lot of footage of himself competing or free-sparring with a student to illustrate how what he is teaching can be applied. But what struck me was how difficult it was for him to actually pull some of it off. It just didn't seem "high yield." And given that Panantukan started with western boxing.....it seems more straight-forward to just go with western boxing.

Many many years ago I went to a few seminars with Guru Ted Lucaylucay. At that time he was promoting what he called "stickboxing." He and his father Lucky Lucaylucay were the big promotors of Panantukan in the Inosanto Academy back in the day. "Stick boxing" was basically using western boxing mechanics to throw the equivalent of jabs, crosses, hooks, etc. with a stick. The empty hand can be used to either check or land a strike of its own in a combination straight out of western boxing. Or it can hold the knife and be used the same way....sort of a boxing version of Espada y daga. Of course, a short knife in hand (especially in reverse grip) can be used with boxing mechanics quite well! James Keating and later Mike Janich promote a reverse grip knife fighting method called "Drawpoint." One of the key drills is called "Rotary Picking", and it is essentially the Pak Da drill from Wing Chun with a knife held in reverse grip in one hand. So from my perspective, as far as weapons go, I see clearly how they can be used with a western boxing mechanic without claiming to hybridize with FMA. And I'm sure you already know that the twirling motions from the TWC knife form are just an upward figure 8. They can be done just as easily with a downward figure 8 and match with a sinawali pattern. Going from blocking structures with the Wing Chun knives into cutting patterns that match sinawali is quite easy and instinctive.

So I think it is a little "cleaner" and more "direct" to work on basic Western Boxing merging with Wing Chun, and then draw inspiration for the weapons from FMA rather than try and merge with a specific FMA style. From what I've seen, FMA weapons systems generally do not use a western boxing mechanic as Panantukan does.

 

[LFJ]

there is some argument to be made that Wing Chun weapons teach middle and long range, hence, hold the key to how empty hand Wing Chun can be utilized at those ranges. The validity of this, however, will depend on how well integrated the weapon theory is. I think even LFJ can at least partially agree with that assessment based on his long pole theory.

Yes. BJD teaches highly mobile, evasive footwork at long range and awareness of danger, hence caution and the ability to draw, angle, and time your counterattacks.

 

[LFJ]

Yes, it is my understanding that the BJD especially helps with understanding ranging. However there is something that I think is a negative there as well. Most of the instruction I have seen regarding them speaks to the fact that in order to survive you need to get in FAST and strike first. Gary Lam speaks of it as helping to improve the closing ability and also comments...

That is a huge negative! As in NOT what BJD teaches!
He must be talking about doing drills on the pole and not actual knife fighting.

So in short while it would help the practitioner to better understand range, the way it is often taught simply enhances the "rush into close range" mentality that @KPM raised.

Rushing into close range when your opponent is armed with knives is a good way to get dead.
At least he admits that strategy is suicide and his students should be willing to die if they try it.

I know you have not learned BJD yet, so, be careful with whatever you find on Google.
Only a couple people even learned BJD from YM! There are a lot of suicide manuals out there.

Actually, BJD strategy follows the same principle that is termed in Kali "defang the snake".

An attacker that has been mortally wounded by a knife or even gun shots can remain on their feet and in the fight longer than Hollywood makes you think. Certainly long enough to kill you back!

Therefore, BJD strategy is to remain mobile and evasive on the outside and take out the weapon arm before safely closing to finish from a relatively safe position and GTFO ASAP.

BJD is not about charging in on an armed opponent like a lunatic, nor does it teach charging in on an opponent from long range in hand-to-hand. Both are idiotic strategies that don't work and could potential kill you.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Finally! A positive contribution to this thread! See! That wasn't so hard, was it?? When you want to, you have some good things to share. If you could just get over being such a XXXX all the time, we could have some good discussions!