The fourth internal art

Xue Sheng

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It's unfortunate. We don't have to look too hard for examples of how the system is getting watered-down the further it gets from the source.
Last WC school I went to trained weapons and had sparing.... but of the 3 I know of in my area, it is the only one that spars. I do not know if the other two train weapons any longer.
 

geezer

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...There is really nothing in Wing Chun that I haven't learned....
Except the the fundamental precept that less is more.

Wing Chun traditionally limited it's scope compared to many other systems and stressed refinement over complexity.
 

Callen

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Last WC school I went to trained weapons and had sparing.... but of the 3 I know of in my area, it is the only one that spars. I do not know if the other two train weapons any longer.
Yeah from my experience, skipping weapons seems to be predominantly a Western thing.

In Mainland and HK, Baat Jam Do and Luk Dim Boon Gwan are thought of as much more than just weapons forms. They also serve to train and develop the mechanics of unit power, footwork and mobility (BJD). We actually start practitioners on LDBG around the time they begin Chum Kiu, to train waist power and reinforce the habit of punching from the core.

There's just no excuse for not pressure testing. IMO, all WC schools should be fighting (sparring) and doing pad work. But I guess that's the modern source for a lot of confusion these days.
 

Xue Sheng

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Yeah from my experience, skipping weapons seems to be predominantly a Western thing.

In Mainland and HK, Baat Jam Do and Luk Dim Boon Gwan are thought of as much more than just weapons forms. They also serve to train and develop the mechanics of unit power, footwork and mobility (BJD). We actually start practitioners on LDBG around the time they begin Chum Kiu, to train waist power and reinforce the habit of punching from the core.

There's just no excuse for not pressure testing. IMO, all WC schools should be fighting (sparring) and doing pad work. But I guess that's the modern source for a lot of confusion these days.
The school I was last at was run by a Chinese man who learned from a Chinese sifu who was a student of Leung Sheung lineage, but he does not emphasize Chi Sau. Another is run by an American (and he is very skilled), also in the same Leung Sheung lineage, I know he is big on Chi Sau but I do not know about weapons and I doubt sparing. The other is in the Ip Ching lineage, also very skilled, and I am not sure weapons but I am pretty certain no sparing
 

Callen

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All of them, empty hand sets, dummy.
I guess it also depends on which branch/lineage/curriculum we're talking about.

There are a great number of hand sets in WC descending from Leung Jan forward. Some Hokshen Kulo village styles (YKS, SN, CB, YC, etc...) that utilize the Sup Yee San Sik (12 form hand set), of which there are several combinations. There's also the linked San Sik, creating one incredibly long form; and of course the Yip Man curricula are probably the most accessible outside of southern China.
 
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Mider

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I guess it also depends on which branch/lineage/curriculum we're talking about.

There are a great number of hand sets in WC descending from Leung Jan forward. Some Hokshen Kulo village styles (YKS, SN, CB, YC, etc...) that utilize the Sup Yee San Sik (12 form hand set), of which there are several combinations. There's also the linked San Sik, creating one incredibly long form; and of course the Yip Man curricula are probably the most accessible outside of southern China.
I think theres a big misconception that WC only does things a certain way. Many in the WC community seem to propagate that stereotype.

there seems to be many schools of WC, how its taught. From hard, soft, internal, etc
 

Oily Dragon

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I guess it also depends on which branch/lineage/curriculum we're talking about.

There are a great number of hand sets in WC descending from Leung Jan forward. Some Hokshen Kulo village styles (YKS, SN, CB, YC, etc...) that utilize the Sup Yee San Sik (12 form hand set), of which there are several combinations. There's also the linked San Sik, creating one incredibly long form; and of course the Yip Man curricula are probably the most accessible outside of southern China.
Of course.

My definition of "incredibly long form" in the CMA is 200+ individual motions, the beginner form in several southern collections.

Leung Jan is a good example of someone who didn't sell short when it came to kung fu.
 

geezer

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Yeah from my experience, skipping weapons seems to be predominantly a Western thing.

In Mainland and HK, Baat Jam Do and Luk Dim Boon Gwan are thought of as much more than just weapons forms. They also serve to train and develop the mechanics of unit power, footwork and mobility (BJD). We actually start practitioners on LDBG around the time they begin Chum Kiu, to train waist power and reinforce the habit of punching from the core.

I believe you are correct in this. Unfortunately the branch of the Yip Man lineage I belonged to for so many years considered the weapons elite or "high prestige" training reserved for only the most advanced practitioners who were also willing to pay a lot of money.

If the weapons sets are, as I also believe, of general value in training, an ethical instructor would start the training earlier, as you said, while the student is still honing his fundamentals.
 

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Except the the fundamental precept that less is more.

Wing Chun traditionally limited it's scope compared to many other systems and stressed refinement over complexity.
In the case of Wing Chun, less is not more. Less is a bunch of "guys" making excuses as to why they struggle with basic things like putting boxing gloves on, or pummeling into a wrestling circle

This used to piss Bruce Lee off!

If it was "more", Wing Chun would dominate the other southern Shaolin arts. It doesn't. And you know I don't mean that in a negative way, more like a "get moving!" Way.
 

geezer

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Of course.

My definition of "incredibly long form" in the CMA is 200+ individual motions, the beginner form in several southern collections.
Rote memorization of "incredibly long" forms is a great way to draw out training and insure the sifu's income for many years. It is not so great a way to develop practical skills.
 

Xue Sheng

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I believe you are correct in this. Unfortunately the branch of the Yip Man lineage I belonged to for so many years considered the weapons elite or "high prestige" training reserved for only the most advanced practitioners who were also willing to pay a lot of money.

If the weapons sets are, as I also believe of general value in training, an ethical instructor would start the training earlier, as you said, while the student is still honing his fundamentals.
Thinking about it, there are a lot of CMA styles that historically had weapons, that no longer seem to teach them. That is rather sad actually

Edit: and if they do teach weapons, it is generally all form, no function.
 

Xue Sheng

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Rote memorization of "incredibly long" forms is a great way to draw out training and insure the sifu's income for many years. It is not so great a way to develop practical skills.
My first CMA Shifu was a master at that. However, in his defense, the times that he tried to interject form, or train closer to how he would have trained people in China...those classes generally got smaller and smaller as time went on. Happened with a Bagua class (applications) and a Chen Taijiquan class (like China). The Bagua class he eventually stopped, which was upsetting because I thought it was great. And the Chen class at least he finished, Chen started out with 2 classes of 60 people and the class was 1.5 hours long. By the time we finished the class was an hour long and only 6 of us were left standing.

So sometimes we blame the teacher when it is the students who don't want the real thing. Same thing happened to my Yang Shifu to, how ever he taught forms very fast and then corrected later. But originally training with him was rough, but most people do not go to taiji these days for rough training.
 

Oily Dragon

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Rote memorization of "incredibly long" forms is a great way to draw out training and insure the sifu's income for many years. It is not so great a way to develop practical skills.
The fist sets we are talking about (southern Shaolin) are endurance exercises that contain many different individual skills.

They take years to learn, but only minutes to execute, if you are well trained.

And by well trained I mean fit. Endurance is the most practical skill.

What is a hundred reps of freeweights compared to one single run through the Five Animal, Five Elements Fist?
 

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And the Chen class at least he finished, Chen started out with 2 classes of 60 people and the class was 1.5 hours long. By the time we finished the class was an hour long and only 6 of us were left standing.

I'm so used to classes being several hours long (like 4+ hours) with very few people (in the single digits), that most other martial arts classes seem so short to me.

Especially when warm-ups are factored in, those 1 hour long classes in other schools feel too short.
 

Oily Dragon

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So let's get down to specifics.

This is the Lam family version of Shaolin Taming the Tiger in the Pattern 撌.

This poster version shows about 100 techniques, but really there are a lot of little transitions on between.

A lot of Wing Chun is in here. Bong Sau is second row, third from the right.

It took me about a year to learn all of this, but if I can get through one run, it's a big daily win.

1701808096648.png
 

Xue Sheng

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I'm so used to classes being several hours long (like 4+ hours) with very few people (in the single digits), that most other martial arts classes seem so short to me.

Especially when warm-ups are factored in, those 1 hour long classes in other schools feel too short.
did a few 6 hour long Xingyiquan classes, those were awesome. And I use to go to my first Shifu's school and spend 4 to 6 hours there on Saturdays. At one point I was about 2 hours a day Monday through Friday, 4 to 6 hours on Saturday and 1 to 2 hours on Sunday. But that was on various styles, forms and a multi-style sparing group (Saturday afternoons), not just one... and I was 30 years younger too
 

geezer

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So let's get down to specifics.

This is the Lam family version of Shaolin Taming the Tiger in the Pattern 撌.

This poster version shows about 100 techniques, but really there are a lot of little transitions on between.

A lot of Wing Chun is in here. Bong Sau is second row, third from the right.

It took me about a year to learn all of this, but if I can get through one run, it's a big daily win.

View attachment 30399
Yeah. A lot of Wing Chun's movements, heck, maybe most of them, are found in other systems. But that doesn't mean they are used as they are in Wing Chun. A lot of similar looking parts are found in Fords, Toyotas and Porches. Y'know. Gears and pistons and stuff. That doesn't make them interchangeable.

Wing Chun is a system. An integrated way of moving. Any given movement, such as bong sau, is not just a "wing-shaped deflection" or whatever. Each movement is used in a particular way that integrates with the entire system. Put the same or similar looking movement in a different system and it will be a different thing.
 

Oily Dragon

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Yeah. A lot of Wing Chun's movements, heck, maybe most of them, are found in other systems. But that doesn't mean they are used as they are in Wing Chun. A lot of similar looking parts are found in Fords, Toyotas and Porches. Y'know. Gears and pistons and stuff. That doesn't make them interchangeable.
Well, there is only one template for the human body, unlike cars. 2 eyes, 2 ears, one nose, one heart, etc.

In the case of Wing Chun, the issue is that the art does actually contain a lot of Neigong.

But then, chain punching.
Wing Chun is a system. An integrated way of moving. Any given movement, such as bong sau, is not just a "wing-shaped deflection" or whatever. Each movement is used in a particular way that integrates with the entire system. Put the same or similar looking movement in a different system and it will be a different thing.
Bong sau means bong sau, the tying hands, and in the southern traditions there are 3 different kinds, regular, inside and outside. You're referring to the Crane technique slang, which is not wrong.

These are universal techniques, so they are as applicable in boxing as they are in BJJ.

BONG SAO 蝬
NUI BONG SAO 蝬
NGOI BONG SAO
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Bong sau means bong sau, the tying hands, and in the southern traditions there are 3 different kinds, regular, inside and outside. You're referring to the Crane technique slang, which is not wrong.

These are universal techniques, so they are as applicable in boxing as they are in BJJ.

BONG SAO 蝬
NUI BONG SAO 蝬
NGOI BONG SAO
If we talk about

- boxing, boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD, TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Eagle claw, eagle claw has finger lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, spine lock, ...
- Chinese wrestling, Chinese wrestling has hip throw, leg lift, leg block, leg twist, ...
- WC, WC has Bong Shou, Fu Shou, Tan Shou, ...

Most of the MA systems label the system by using the offensive techniques. Why does WC use defense techniques to label the system?
 

wckf92

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If we talk about

- boxing, boxing has jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- TKD, TKD has front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- Eagle claw, eagle claw has finger lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, spine lock, ...
- Chinese wrestling, Chinese wrestling has hip throw, leg lift, leg block, leg twist, ...
- WC, WC has Bong Shou, Fu Shou, Tan Shou, ...

Most of the MA systems label the system by using the offensive techniques. Why does WC use defense techniques to label the system?

I've never understood why some WC people say this. I never heard of this until it was said on one of the many WC movies (Donnie Yen perhaps?). I'm not sure. But anyway, my upbringing in WC had absolutely nothing to do with centering the art around those three terms.

But, depending on your lineage, instructor(s), and how one personally interprets the art...one could also say that WC has straight punch, uppercut, hook, kick etc.

And finally, there are qualities of Bong/Fuk/Tan that are most certainly offensive!

Heck, a WC punch is offensive AND defensive by nature! (*notice I placed offensive first, defensive second). If you watch closely, the everyday average centerline punch in WC has the qualities and attributes of Fuk, Tan, Jut as it travels away/back, etc.
 
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