Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Hanzou]

Well guess what you're wrong pretty much ever kata I've ever done has blocks punches kicks jabs hooks and uppercuts so maybe you should stop pretending you know everything and try and learn something and stop being so full of yourself just a thought

Yes, archaic punches, kicks from archaic stances, and uppercuts with little practical value. Is it any wonder that the majority of karate and kung fu practitioners resort to boxing/muay thai for hand techniques, footwork, and stances when they transition to MMA or other combat sports?

There's actually a pretty funny vid where a Wing Chun practitioner tries to enter MMA using WC kicks and punches, and a coach/promoter tells him that he better switch to Muay Thai or he's going to get hurt.

 

[Headhunter]

The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"

 

[Headhunter]

Yes, archaic punches, kicks from archaic stances, and uppercuts with little practical value. Is it any wonder that the majority of karate and kung fu practitioners resort to boxing/muay thai for hand techniques, footwork, and stances when they transition to MMA or other combat sports?

Yes...and Muay Thai and boxers also change their stance and style because it's in the name mixed martial arts...you can't survive with just 1 style if a pure boxer entered mma he'd get destroyed, same with pure Muay Thai or pure jiu jitsu. No one fights with just 1 style everyone adds to it when they do mma but hey guess what....most people don't give a damm about mma

 

[Hanzou]

Yes...and Muay Thai and boxers also change their stance and style because it's in the name mixed martial arts...

Wrong. Boxers maintain their hand techniques and will learn kicking and grappling. Muay Thai fighters will pick up grappling, but maintain their hand techs and kicking. I'm not talking about adding something to what you already know, I'm talking about dumping your style and having to unlearn everything you were taught because it'll get you KO'd.

you can't survive with just 1 style if a pure boxer entered mma he'd get destroyed, same with pure Muay Thai or pure jiu jitsu. No one fights with just 1 style everyone adds to it when they do mma but hey guess what....most people don't give a damm about mma

All of that is irrelevant to the overall point. The point is that all of those exotic techniques found in kata have little practical value when the poop hits the fan. I mean, I'm not seeing anyone "destroying limbs" with the Mantis Claw. How about you?

 

[Hanzou]

The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"

Laughable. So boxing works in the ring, the street, and overall fighting, yet somehow, traditional styles only work in self defense?

Perhaps it's time to simply face the reality that traditional styles aren't only designed to not fight in the ring, perhaps they're not designed for fighting period.

 

[Steve]

I'd say he nailed it.

Bow chicka wow wow.

 

[Paul_D]

Laughable. So boxing works in the ring, the street, and overall fighting, yet somehow, traditional styles only work in self defense?

Close, but no cigar. You almost had it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Where's the shallow interpretation of kata?

Right here:

Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations.

That is a shallow interpretation that doesn't have the full realization of the other elements I listed or the principles and strategies incorporated into kata and extrapolated by bunkai.

 

[Hanzou]

That is a shallow interpretation that doesn't have the full realization of the other elements I listed or the principles and strategies incorporated into kata and extrapolated by bunkai.

Yes, let's talk about the bunkai for a moment....

Here's the bunkai from one of my favorite kata from Shotokan; Tekki Shodan;

As much as I love this kata, the idea that you could pull off any of that bunkai against a resisting opponent is pure fantasy.

It sure looks nice though.

This one is even worse;

 

[Headhunter]

Wrong. Boxers maintain their hand techniques and will learn kicking and grappling. Muay Thai fighters will pick up grappling, but maintain their hand techs and kicking. I'm not talking about adding something to what you already know, I'm talking about dumping your style and having to unlearn everything you were taught because it'll get you KO'd.



All of that is irrelevant to the overall point. The point is that all of those exotic techniques found in kata have little practical value when the poop hits the fan. I mean, I'm not seeing anyone "destroying limbs" with the Mantis Claw. How about you?

What exotic techniques? I've never seen any exotic techniques I've only seen basic moves that are in all styles. Just because you're to ignorant to understand doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe you should try actually learning about things instead of being so arrogant and thinking you know everything

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The problem is martial art movies. They see all the nonsense involve breaking 100 boards or the touch of death or cartwheel kicks and they think that's what traditional styles are all about. But in reality that stuff is very small part of them. But then the ufc fanboys see the movies and say how that doesn't work in a ring..Well yeah sure because it's not designed to fight in the ring. Look up any not combatitive martial artist and you'll see idiots saying "this guy sucks he doesn't fight ufc what's his record he sucks"

Agreed. Movies portray real martial arts rather poorly. A prime example would be the well choreographed fight that shows rather flashy, refined motor skill movements that look really good on film yet would be just silly to do in a street fight. Or even dangerous. As I teach in my edged weapons classes, injury occurs alarmingly fast i.e. within just several seconds in many cases. A real martial arts defense/response should be over in as few seconds as possible. No dancing around. No posturing. No verbal chit-chat. Just in-and-done. It won't look pretty and in fact will/should look rather ugly and brutal because a fight is a chaotic and fluid event.

Sporting competitions are two well conditioned athletes going toe-to-toe. Self defense could be running away from the fight. It could be talking your way out of the problem. It could be getting through the door and locking it behind you quickly. It could be the small woman using the element of surprise on an over-confident aggressor and striking/kicking a sensitive and/or vital high % area and then escaping. It could be turning a joint lock into joint destruction to physically overcome an aggressor due to the circumstances.

 

[Hanzou]

What exotic techniques? I've never seen any exotic techniques I've only seen basic moves that are in all styles. Just because you're to ignorant to understand doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe you should try actually learning about things instead of being so arrogant and thinking you know everything

I mentioned one such technique in the post;

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I mentioned one such technique in the post;

Perhaps you should pay more attention.

Again, your lack of understanding does not constitute something being useless. Rather than saying one or more things wouldn't work against resisting opponents, perhaps you should ask if anyone has indeed used such-n-such against resisting opponents. And then find out from them how well it worked, or not. And then learn from the experience.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, your lack of understanding does not constitute something being useless. Rather than saying one or more things wouldn't work against resisting opponents, perhaps you should ask if anyone has indeed used such-n-such against resisting opponents. And then find out from them how well it worked, or not. And then learn from the experience.

Because anecdotal evidence isn't good evidence. People will lie to protect themselves and their beliefs, and I'm sure plenty of exponents of a given TMA will say that their methods work just fine, despite a stark lack of evidence to prove that they do.

The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear. Thus, the only conclusion is that they're hiding because they don't believe what they do is effective, and they don't wish to be exposed.

With that said, a little common sense is in order; If your grappling techniques are based around catching someone's punch, as expressed in that Tekki Shodan bunkai, and you truly believe that you can actually catch someone's punch (and they'll stand there while you perform several techniques on them), you're living in a fantasy world.

 

[Tez3]

Nice way of taking a post out of context. I'm saying if a woman is triangle choking someone she is using fighting ability to do so. If she is attempting to fight back, and lacks fighting ability, she has a higher chance of failure. I fully understand that some women choose not to fight back.

You should be careful about your choice of words, you should also not trivialise the subject of rape by trying to score cheap points.
Still you are doing a very good job of showing the divide between MMA and TMA with your disdain and lack of knowledge. You have turned a thread asking why there is hatred between the two into the perfect demonstration of why some MMA people rant and rave about TMA. Congratulations on turning this thread into an omnishambles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I mentioned one such technique in the post;

Actually, that's one of the preying mantis famous techniques. It's called "Diao Shou". If you are good at it, this move can be really fast. The WC guys also use this technique. In WC, it's called "Fu Shou".

- Your opponent right punch at your face.
- You use right hook to redirect that punch a little bit to your left.
- You then strike back with that right hook on your opponent's face.

Can this back hand strike be able to kill your opponent? May be not. It can work just as the boxing jab and use it to set up many other strikes.

I personal don't like to wait for my opponent's punch and deal with it. But I can still use it to open my opponent's boxing guard. Similar to a downward parry, or upward comb hair, The "Diao Shou" can be used to "pull" your opponent's boxing guard apart.

 

[Headhunter]

Actually, that's one of the preying mantis famous techniques. It's called "Diao Shou". If you are good at it, this move can be really fast. The WC guys also use this technique. In WC, it's called "Fu Shou".

- Your opponent right punch at your face.
- You use right hook to redirect that punch a little bit to your left.
- You then strike back with that right hook on your opponent's face.

Can this back hand strike be able to kill your opponent? May be not. It can work just as the boxing jab and use it to set up many other strikes.

I personal don't like to wait for my opponent's punch and deal with it. But I can still use it to open my opponent's boxing guard. Similar to a downward parry, or upward comb hair, The "Diao Shou" can be used to "pull" your opponent's boxing guard apart.

Don't even bother with him he's so blinded by his own prejudice he wont even try and learn

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear.

Except that's not objective evidence of whether it works against an unprepared attacker, anyway. It's a useful method of validation, but not being able to do something against a well-trained and prepared opponent does not necessarily mean it can't be used against an aggressive attacker who isn't expecting that response. That can be easily seen in how often a single powerful jab ends an altercation in the street, and how seldom the first dozen or so jabs have much effect in a competition. Nobody I know of would argue that jabs aren't effective in a short defensive fight, even though they rarely show much immediate ability to do damage in a contest.

The same could be said of a lot of standing grappling techniques. A skilled opponent who is aware they are in a contest can avoid giving the weight commitment or arm control that make those techniques available. But in an attack, trying to get it done fast (which is often the case, as seen in many videos), an attacker does commit weight and make arm control available. He also walks into jabs that the trained guy wouldn't.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The best evidence would be objective evidence. However, since exponents of such styles refuse to compete in open formats, that objective evidence will never appear. Thus, the only conclusion is that they're hiding because they don't believe what they do is effective, and they don't wish to be exposed.

That's your own bias speaking. And it's not factual. And it's silly. You can't take one type of training and automatically insert it into an artificial venue. That's like putting a Judo player against a TKD player...who's going to win? Well, it depends on the rules. If the Judo player isn't allowed to grapple then I'd put my money on the TKD player. How about a kick boxer vs. a BJJ player? Well, if the kick boxer isn't allowed to kick and they both have to start on the ground I'd put my money on the BJJ player. Okay, how about we take the MMA guy who has to abide by the rules of the octagon against a street fighter that doesn't have to obey the rules...and he's armed with a knife...and two of his buddies are going to jump in when the MMA guy turns his back. Who are you going to put your money on? How about an MMA guy, same as above against a Karate guy but the Karate guy gets to use techniques the maim, blind, break or kill because he's not bound by the rule set? Not fair to the MMA you might say? Well, it wouldn't be fair to the Karate guy to limit what he's learned to a narrow range and rule set that is artificial. Plus, the Karate guy doesn't train to win, he trains to not lose/not have to fight.

Let me ask you a question, if we were to meet in person...would you like to get into the ring with me? You rely on your training and I rely on mine. Simple question.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

As much as I love this kata, the idea that you could pull off any of that bunkai against a resisting opponent is pure fantasy.

This is a chicken and egg issue. If you develop your skill first. You then create your solo form to "record" your skill, that will be a different story.

Here is an example. His technique has been developed in the past 50 years (he is a 8th degree black belt in Shuai Chiao, the chairman of ACSCA). His form/Kata was created just 2 years ago.