Why the hate between TMA and MMA?

[Kong Soo Do]

Well...I was kinda close

Well, I've always wanted to go down under anyway so who knows.

 

[Hanzou]

I write in English and without fail every time you see something I haven't written, and don't understand what I have written. You can't be that stupid, so you must just be being deliberately obtuse. Where did I say you "all you need". kata? I said kata doesn't look like sparring because it is for SD and sparring is for fighting.

Which is saying that all you need for self defense is kata, since as you just said, kata is designed for Self Defense.

You also like to play this bizarre semantic game where somehow when two people are in a ring they're fighting, but if you get tackled in the street by some sociopath and you have to defend yourself, its not fighting. In actuality, you're fighting in both cases, because your fighting ability is part of the equation that will determine the outcome.

Which is why I brought up the MMA fighters and the kata performers. I seriously doubt that Dern or Holm have done a kata their entire lives, yet I'd put their chance of survival in an attack over some kata bunkai expert.

 

[drop bear]

I've stated this in how many threads? Fifty...a hundred? Yes, different goals require different training.



Who said that?

Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.

 

[Hanzou]

It's people like Hanzou that make people think that all mma people hate traditional styles

That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.

Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.

However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.

 

[Hanzou]

Don't know why you rate Mackenzie dern so high. She's a good jiu jitsu styalist but is totally unproven in mma she's 3-0 against nobodies with 2 decisions and missed weight twice. It's far to early to say if she'll be elite or not

Where was I rating Dern? I simply said that she is a MMA fighter who practices a singular style, and that singular style happens to be Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Why would we do that kata isn't for fighting.

The differences have been explained to you many many times by many different people and it is clear you will never understand the difference between fighting and self defence. That's not a problem, the problem is when you tyr to tell th me people who do understand what is and isn't useful for a given situation when you understand neither the given situation nor the tools being applied to it.

If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.

The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.

The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack fighting ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.

Ah, but let's continue that thought. In a sport competition you punch, kick and grapple a single, unarmed opponent using a pre-arranged rule set that both abide by, in a controlled environment. You get one or more rest breaks. Have corner people to advise you and treat any injuries you may have sustained. And if you've had enough you can quit and walk away.

None of that applies to self defense. So while you may punch, kick and grapple there exists a multitude of other more priority factors. For example, SD training should involve the laws governing use-of-force. SD training should cover avoidance, escape, evasion and de-escalation. Sports training doesn't cover that as it's not used in competition. Sports don't train for that because it doesn't apply. SD training should be against single as well as multiple attackers. Sports training doesn't involve multiple attackers because it's one-on-one. SD training should cover weapons use, improvised and conventional from the perspective of you and the attacker(s). Sports training doesn't cover that as no weapons are used in the ring. SD training should cover that the attacker(s) aren't going to obey rules. SD training shouldn't continually occur in a sterile, controlled environment. As I often note, SD training should be inside a car, in an elevator, on stairs, in a bed, in an alley, between two cars etc. None of that applies to sports training because it simply isn't applicable. In a SD situation there are no water breaks. No one is there to give you a pep talk. Medical care probably isn't immediately available.

Someone into competition doesn't focus on these things because none of it applies to their goal. If you're a TKD or kick boxer looking to score points by kicking a certain area of an opponents body...why would you waste time drilling on fighting inside a car preventing a carjacking? If on the other hand I want SD, why would I waste time training to put someone in an arm bar on the ground and trying to make them tap out? Thus two different goals and two different methodologies of training.

Someone once said that in sport, you're looking to win. In SD, you're looking to not lose.

Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.

That is a shallow interpretation of kata. It is quite a bit more than what you've expressed your understanding to be. And just as important, if not more so, is the proper understanding of bunkai. A kata contains everything you do in the ring and quite a bit more i.e. punches, striking, kicking, grappling (standing and on the ground), joint locks/destruction, cavity pressing, throwing, sweeping etc.

 

[Tez3]

the woman lack fighting ability, she's going to get raped

Just no, because what you are saying is that a woman must fight the rapist and sometimes, in fact often, that's not something she can do for a number of reasons. It must be left to the woman how she deals with the situation and no blame must be attached if she decides not fighting is how she survives. The days of being killed or being battered to prove you have been raped are gone.

 

[Headhunter]

Where was I rating Dern? I simply said that she is a MMA fighter who practices a singular style, and that singular style happens to be Bjj.

Yeah and the rest I've seen plenty of your posts about her

 

[Headhunter]

That's too bad for them, since I don't hate traditional styles.

Just like I don't hate classic cars and antique weaponry.

However if you tell me that a Model-T can perform as well as a Nissan GTR, or that a flintlock musket is equal to an AK-47, then I think you're full of crap.

And if someone is rude and dismissive and arrogant towards people who use a flintlock when it's what they enjoy using and get the benefits they want from it then the guys just a bit of a jerk

 

[CB Jones]

Times do change, unfortunately (though for some people change is good). I've noticed that times can also change in different places at different times. I don't remember many Karate or Taekwondo schools who practiced freestyle sparring when I was younger. Where I lived, almost all the open-door martial arts schools were still practicing point-sparring (they weren't actually making any contact). Also, the competitions back then were very stylized. Karate practitioners only competed against other Karate practitioners. Judo only competed against Judo, and TKD only competed against TKD, that's just how it was. That was even up into the 1990's where I lived. But nowadays, it seems like every Karate and TKD style I see looks like kickboxing. There is a lot more contact-sparring now, with less stylized competitions occurring between different schools. I think it's good.

I don't know if it was just where you lived but PKC has been an open style sparing competition for 25 years and even though it is point sparring it allows a lot of contact. USKA has been putting on open style sparring tournaments since the 1950s and allows a lot of contact. Also in the bigger tourneys, events have point sparring and continuous (free sparring) sparring events.

And most of the schools that compete in those organizations do a lot of free sparring in training.

Too me this is part of the problem with the argument against TMA....too many times broad assumptions are made in reference to TMA based on limited sampling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Either self defence is different to sports fighting or it isn't. You punch,kick and grapple in a sports fight.

It's not necessarily binary, DB. It's more of a Venn diagram. There's overlap between sports fighting and SD, and there are areas that are different.

 

[Hanzou]

That is a shallow interpretation of kata. It is quite a bit more than what you've expressed your understanding to be. And just as important, if not more so, is the proper understanding of bunkai. A kata contains everything you do in the ring and quite a bit more i.e. punches, striking, kicking, grappling (standing and on the ground), joint locks/destruction, cavity pressing, throwing, sweeping etc.

Where's the shallow interpretation of kata? You said the exact same thing I said except you added joint locks, cavity pressing, and sweeping. Whoop dee do! The main point is that kata is merely attempting to teach you how to fight in an inefficient and archaic manner.

 

[Hanzou]

Just no, because what you are saying is that a woman must fight the rapist and sometimes, in fact often, that's not something she can do for a number of reasons. It must be left to the woman how she deals with the situation and no blame must be attached if she decides not fighting is how she survives. The days of being killed or being battered to prove you have been raped are gone.

Nice way of taking a post out of context. I'm saying if a woman is triangle choking someone she is using fighting ability to do so. If she is attempting to fight back, and lacks fighting ability, she has a higher chance of failure. I fully understand that some women choose not to fight back.

 

[Headhunter]

If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.

The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.

The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack fighting ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.

If you're trying to say that kata isn't designed for fighting, then I say there is a problem. Kata is merely a collection of punches, kicks, throws, and stances handed down through the generations. Kata wasn't designed to teach you how to talk down a mugger or yell for help. Kata was designed to teach you how to fight using the techniques of the style without ready access to an instructor. So essentially some old master could teach you a kata, then you'll never see him again, and you practice and perfect what he taught you.

The problem is that performing kata isn't the most efficient methodology to teach someone how to fight. The most efficient way to develop fighting skill is actually fighting. The next most efficient method is to practice fighting. On the other hand, one of the least effective methods to develop fighting skill is drilling a bunch of archaic and esoteric techniques in the air with little to no resistance. Kata, by and large is an obsolete practice that should be regulated to mere exercise, or to physically express your art's traditions. The idea that it is a substitute for sparring or fighting is frankly nonsense.

The next problem in your argument is the belief that self defense isn't fighting. If a woman is putting a rapist in a triangle choke and choking him out, she's fighting. When I had some sociopath trying to smash my head in with a hammer, I was fighting. If myself or the woman lack fighting ability, she's going to get raped, and I'm going to get dead. People are going to martial arts schools to learn how to defend themselves. That translates into them wanting to know how to FIGHT. This silly separation of the two really needs to stop. Clearly, self defense encompasses a variety of things outside of martial arts, but this is a martial arts forum, and we're talking about martial arts. To say that a series of prearranged kicks, punches, and throws isn't about teaching fighting is pretty flipping dumb.

So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata

 

[Hanzou]

And if someone is rude and dismissive and arrogant towards people who use a flintlock when it's what they enjoy using and get the benefits they want from it then the guys just a bit of a jerk

Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.

 

[Hanzou]

So you don't shadow box then? Or don't do drills in the air. Your coach doesn't call out combinations for you to use in shadow boxing? Because that's exactly the same as kata

Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.

Mike Tyson shadowboxing:

Look familiar?

 

[Headhunter]

Perhaps people who use flintlocks shouldn't attempt to argue that their weapons are as good, if not better than modern ones.

Well guess what both have bullets both fire bullets both kill you if you get hit. If I get shot I'm not thinking oh at least I didn't get hit by that new gun

 

[Headhunter]

Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.

Uh, in shadow boxing you're using jabs, hooks, uppercuts, footwork, and other movements that you would use in the ring. I have yet to see a karateka ever use the vertical punches shown in Heian Godan, or the series of hand techniques seen in Papuren.

Well guess what you're wrong pretty much ever kata I've ever done has blocks punches kicks jabs hooks and uppercuts so maybe you should stop pretending you know everything and try and learn something and stop being so full of yourself just a thought

 

[FriedRice]

Ah, but let's continue that thought. In a sport competition you punch, kick and grapple a single, unarmed opponent using a pre-arranged rule set that both abide by, in a controlled environment.

There were no DQ rules in UFC 1-4.

You get one or more rest breaks.

No breaks in UFC 1-4.

Have corner people to advise you and treat any injuries you may have sustained.

Plenty of people advise you in the streets as they're watching the fight. And UFC 1-4 had no break periods to treat injuries.

And if you've had enough you can quit and walk away.

Plenty of street fights ends this way....actually, most of them do. Many people just quit or the winner stops or some bystander breaks it up..or the cops do....especially when there's a KO, usually the crowd of watchers don't allow it to go further....but most of the time, the winner stops on their own once seeing someone is KO'ed....and at worse, just gets a few extra punches in. Pretty similar to ALL of the UFC's....and nearly identical to UFC 1-4.

Currently, there are 2,786 real fight videos, categorized into 94 types of fights; on my hard drive. Only FIVE, resulted in deaths; where the winner continued striking his KO'ed and unconscious opponent. You make it sound like it's life or death all the time or something. Want to see the screen shot as proof?