Why does karate have better kicks than hands?

[drop bear]

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Hard contact to the head is obviously dangerous to the brain. That's why traditional karate prohibits contact to the head in training, as a general rule. Blows to various parts of the body can be effective, the head is the clear target for certain effect. That's what everyone believes where I train.....

Ok lets try this. These over in seconds street fights. How many are finished with body shots?

 

[ShotoNoob]

1. Just out of interest, to build up to your level at the board breaking, in addition to your air punching drills have you also been practicing on hitting the boards and breaking and therefore conditioning had been occurring? I take it you didn't just go up in front of the class and break boards solely on your air punching but that you have trained, even on your own, at breaking board with strikes?

2. You mention in addition to air punching you have been focusing on the "traditional karate curriculum, no sport equipment". If that is anything like what we do in goju ryu - particularly the more traditional focused members - then that will condition your bare hands far better for breaking than most sport styles or other training. That involves makiwara work, either with rope padding or not on the board, sand bag or metal filling work on the knuckles (and palms and finger tips), hours of bare knuckle push ups etc. I am not surprised the "sports" guys in your club didn't want to or could not match you in hitting the boards. Seems obvious?

3. I would agree that pad work in itself is generally for a different thing and is not designed for power work. But that is why the God of Boxing invented the heavy heavy bag. I have nothing against breaking and breaking exhibitions in itself but I do think they are a distraction if you are focusing on fighting (particularly only having so much time in the day). I also think that the heavy bag is a far better tool for working on strike power and strength in the context of training for a fight with a moving and resisting opponent, rather than board breaking. In addition, the heavy bag has so much more in common with the human body you will be punching than compared to say a brick or boards...

4. Again, it's impressive for what it is but it's the old cliché (but which is also very true) of "boards don't hit back". The set up time and position for impressive breaks, and even simple breaks on thick non-commercial boards, has simply no reflection on or place in a fight situation.

WOW, that's an intense reply.... Props many...
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1. Conditioning of the hand is part of the traditional karate curriculum, though often neglected. We do not have the makiwara board @ our school but we do have a wood floor. Putting a towel or other padding down suffices. Can do the same with a wood paneled wall I have at home.
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2. NO, my style is much more elemental than the Okinawan karates, which are comparatively more sophisticated than the Japanese karates, IMHO. Our schools always insists on "bare-knuckle" pushups, never palms. On the sport karate types, many can break the boards. Physical strength alone can break boards. It's the kind of strength I used to break the boards (little body mechanics such a hip rotation, no twisting the body and rising up on the toes like a boxer, no leaning into the strike or exaggerated up & down windups, zero body momentum); as well as the fighting form I broke them with. A projection of power rather than athletics movement....I'm largely stationary at the moment of the break.
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3. Disagree here, although heavy bag training is acceptable IMO. The whole concept of board breaking is that you're able to apply pinpoint precision with both speed and whole body power thus break the opponent's body parts. You take the heavy bag, I'll just knock your teeth out.... Clear enough?
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4. EXACTLY. The board breaking doesn't work for you because when you practice it's just a physical gimmick unrelated to the true foundational skills of traditional karate. You don't really understand the significance of breaking boards and you have plenty of company at my dojo... So don't feel alone.
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Hope I did justice to your great reply. I tried....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ok lets try this. These over in seconds street fights. How many are finished with body shots?

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Don't do street fighting. Two students ganged up on me one day at the dojo. Knocked the one down with a backfist to the face. He got up and I knocked him down again--backfist to the face. He remained on the floor. Second, guy, a former military police officer rapidly back pedaled as I came at him methodically blocking every strike or kick. He made sure he didn't get hit. Or was it I stopped short of contact? I'll let you decide.
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NOTE: Of course, both naturally bigger & stronger physically than I....

IOW, I like going to the head.... hurt the enough head, the body function becomes disabled....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Cool, looking forward to reading your answer.



If you re-read my original post, you'll note I never denigrated kata. I did note that the effectiveness or lack thereof was going to be connected to the practitioners understanding and mental focus. (Based on what you've written, I would assume that you agree with this.)

Likewise, Tez is certainly not denigrating kata. She's a long term karateka who is a fierce defender of the value in kata.



I hope my earlier post clarified why it is insulting to refer to an experienced, dedicated karateka as a "karateka" (in quotes)?



Perhaps we could have a more productive discussion if we made sure we were speaking the same language. Can you clarify exactly what you mean by mind-body unity in observable real world terms? If an individual has achieved mind-body unity, what exactly are they able to accomplish in a fight that is different from what someone without mind-body unity can do?



Cool. I'd love to hear details on that program. However, it doesn't answer the question that Tez and I have been asking: "How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?"



I love to get feedback (critical or otherwise) on any of my blog posts. Feel free to PM me or leave a comment on the blog with any commentary you have on any of it (assuming it's not relevant to the current discussion thread).

You're talking about my Road Maps entry, right? I'm not sure I see a much relevance to the current thread, but if you see a connection, please point it out.

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I've got to get something to eat before I tackle that response!
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On kata, just let me say it's the comprehensive traditional karate exercise. Kata is what makes the traditional karateka a superior fighter. Kata, it's value, is generally underestimated by all, including among those @ my dojo...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Perhaps we could decide what we mean by a traditional karate syllabus?
What is Traditional Karate Iain Abernethy

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My understanding of IA's work is that it is more akin to the Okinawan karate styles, those particular principles. Very effective applications, very strong karate.
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My karate is much more basic. It's the mental strength, the complete discipline of mind over body that propels kihon karate technique & application into fighting sophistication. It's the foundation that powers traditional karate, complexity in application is secondary....
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Boxers & Muay Thai beware. My hands are to be feared over my feet.

 

[Drose427]

I dont know if id ever say body shots are generally more effective than head shots, but I will say this. I've trained all across the Martial Arts Spectrum, personally training in Boxing, Wrestling, and TSD. While sparring and working with military guys, MMA guys, other TMA guys, just a wide variety of styles and contact level. But, nothing has ever dropped me or affected my ability to fight as fast as a good liver shot. No elbow, kick to the jaw, nothing. But, I've been in gloves since I was little. So my jaws probably a little more conditioned than your average joe whos trying to start fights at the block party. A head-shot hurts, it aches, things get brighter for a second, yoou get a little dizzy, we've all been there. But a liver shot just makes your body shut down, and it hurts like all heck.

While I dont know if its more effective than headhunting, and these matches definitely didnt end in seconds, there have been many professional bouts ended from body shots. Usually the liver is what actually gets hit. For people who havent taken a good liver shot, its hard to really understand how bad it actually feels. But it's definitely up the on the "potential fight enders list."

 

[drop bear]

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My understanding of IA's work is that it is more akin to the Okinawan karate styles, those particular principles. Very effective applications, very strong karate.
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My karate is much more basic. It's the mental strength, the complete discipline of mind over body that propels kihon karate technique & application into fighting sophistication. It's the foundation that powers traditional karate, complexity in application is secondary....
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Boxers & Muay Thai beware. My hands are to be feared over my feet.

You have the edge because you have a monopoly on mental toughness?

Go fight a guy from an eastern block country.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You have the edge because you have a monopoly on mental toughness?

Go fight a guy from an eastern block country.

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Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude. Commonly found in sport fighters & killers. Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time. It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive.
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The ancient karate masters recognized the important of developing the mental strength as I've tried broadly to describe it. The originators of the traditional martial arts were thinking men, not "tough guys." For practical purposes, these thinking men applied their thinking about how to fully develop the human potential. They then applied that learning to being able to open up a can of wooopass on those tough guys that would beat up on those poor, pitiful bookworms. YES, it was the mental strength that powered their wooopass. Go fight one if you don't feel the way of do. I already know how hard it is to take on a very dangerous opponent.
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As my first & best martial arts instructor said; "You wanna get you head beat in?" Your statement seems to me like you'd like to get your head beat in, instead of doing the WORK to investigate what I've proposed. Go ahead, go to Okinawa & challenge some of the karate masters, take your eastern-block friend[?] with you.
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I'm not sure how I fit in giving an explanation of how I approach traditional karate. Just follow your own advice, that's what will really prove your point.... Please don't ask me to do your work for you ....... If I was from the eastern block, I'd tell you to go yourself.
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I'm a poor dinner date, I know.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

It seems rather pointless to compare the impact of a fist with that of a bullet...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

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See the picture of the Master? in your avatar breaking the cement blocks. He's bending over , leaning into the strike & dropping his body weight to do the break. No,No. I do the board breaking from standard karate front stances generally with no overt body movement other than that to perform a front punch or block. I call on the body strength isometrically drawn from inside, not body mass, momentum or body in motion, etc
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Can't improve on your quote.....

 

[Tez3]

I'm surprised after several decades of karate training, you haven't aged enough to become a women. Strange....

Having you thinking, particularly deeply, is a mistake.

Really?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Really?

The Kool-aid is bitter with this one.

 

[Tez3]

The Kool-aid is bitter with this one.

This one wouldn't go near the Kool-aid, it's not kosher.

 

[jezr74]

I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.

 

[Tez3]

I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.

More like Peter Sellers in the Goons to me.

Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude. Commonly found in sport fighters & killers. Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time. It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive

Mental toughness as described is hardly the preserve of killers, it actually takes little to be able to kill in a moment of anger. mental toughness is found in many people in many situations, it is something that allows people to survive the worst conditions. POWs in the Japanese camps had mental toughness to survive as did concentration camp survivors, mothers fighting to be bring their children up properly in slums and ghettos have mental toughness, I could go on, I'm sure everyone knows of someone with mental toughness who impressed them.
Mental discipline is also something that is not unique to specific people, it's not even unique to martial artists.
Pathos isn't 'caring for others' at all. Far from it, it is the pitying of people something that can be condescending in fact and unpleasant.

So...'traditional' karate, what style, what lineage is Shotonoob advocating? Shotokan?

 

[drop bear]

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Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude. Commonly found in sport fighters & killers. Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time. It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive.
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The ancient karate masters recognized the important of developing the mental strength as I've tried broadly to describe it. The originators of the traditional martial arts were thinking men, not "tough guys." For practical purposes, these thinking men applied their thinking about how to fully develop the human potential. They then applied that learning to being able to open up a can of wooopass on those tough guys that would beat up on those poor, pitiful bookworms. YES, it was the mental strength that powered their wooopass. Go fight one if you don't feel the way of do. I already know how hard it is to take on a very dangerous opponent.
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As my first & best martial arts instructor said; "You wanna get you head beat in?" Your statement seems to me like you'd like to get your head beat in, instead of doing the WORK to investigate what I've proposed. Go ahead, go to Okinawa & challenge some of the karate masters, take your eastern-block friend[?] with you.
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I'm not sure how I fit in giving an explanation of how I approach traditional karate. Just follow your own advice, that's what will really prove your point.... Please don't ask me to do your work for you ....... If I was from the eastern block, I'd tell you to go yourself.
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I'm a poor dinner date, I know.....

They did. Russia dominated.
Best Karate Kyokushin Russia vs World

 

[ShotoNoob]

They did. Russia dominated.
Best Karate Kyokushin Russia vs World

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I know the Kyo practitioners have a reputation for being tough. I'm not a fan of the Kyokushin karate style myself. In judging the "best" style in application, I think it critical to assess who is properly preparing to be a professional fighter and who is not. That will account for much of the outcome, versus just relying on style labels....
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I think it's good & healthy ( for the martial art of karate) for such events to be sanctioned. There's certainly a lesson in the Russians and the Kyo competitors basically taking the tournament. We (me, everyone) should take a look at the event & review what happened, what lead to the outcome. Congradulations always to the victors, including the sole Shotokan fighter, and a nod of respect to all participants.
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a GREAT idea for a thread, NO? Could be posted under MMA, karate, competition forum topics. Would love to see you do that....
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Two general comments from my experience in local competition.
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1. I went up against a kickboxer type who is a senior belt @ my school, feared for his aggressiveness & toughness by most of the school. Wiped him out on the 1st exchange. Of course the real story is that he was a "sport fighter" who was successful at pushing his aggression on physically weaker opponents (such as me) of all ranks. Of course by the traditional karate curriculum per se, he was mediocre. So that's why I won. After the winning exchange, the instructor continued the kumite for testing purposes--the kickboxer-type was never able to land a kick or punch, including on my DEFENSE-ONLY strategy from that point.
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2. Though I personally don't adopt the KYO style, I do believe in certain of it' concepts as critically important. Be prepared for actual fighting. Be well conditioned. Be prepared to fight long & hard against several opponents. Repeat your training regiment over & over & over & over. Even the YIELDING Japanese martial art of Judo advocates all these. But no style like KYO makes a bigger point about it with the original idea of a 100-man kumite.
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I used that concept to get a fellow student out of his training "rut." The whole concept of doing something a 100 times requires dedication & discipline. When you actually focus on what you are doing, then the results blossom. It did for him.
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All styles of traditional karate trains to prevail in a physical conflict. Personally, I don't care for Shotokan either. Yet I firmly believe a Shotokan stylist who trains to the underlying traditional karate principles & the Shotokan style can & should prevail over a KYO competitor. One did, reaffirming I may be correct.
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In closing, the Russian KYO's won. That's a fact. I consider my self a Pro-Am fighter, not a pro. Should I face a Kyo, pro or not, I can tell you my strategy. The one the aggressive senior belt experienced. The same approach one-of-two-dojo bullies received--on the floor hurt or if you get up you know you're going to be hurt AGAIN. It's very Okinawan in principle & concept. In a couple of moves the opponent is done. That's it. IMHO, the Okinawan Master's knew what they were doing.
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Good continued fortunes at the next tournament....

 

[ShotoNoob]

More like Peter Sellers in the Goons to me.





Mental toughness as described is hardly the preserve of killers, it actually takes little to be able to kill in a moment of anger. mental toughness is found in many people in many situations, it is something that allows people to survive the worst conditions. POWs in the Japanese camps had mental toughness to survive as did concentration camp survivors, mothers fighting to be bring their children up properly in slums and ghettos have mental toughness, I could go on, I'm sure everyone knows of someone with mental toughness who impressed them.
Mental discipline is also something that is not unique to specific people, it's not even unique to martial artists.
Pathos isn't 'caring for others' at all. Far from it, it is the pitying of people something that can be condescending in fact and unpleasant.

So...'traditional' karate, what style, what lineage is Shotonoob advocating? Shotokan?

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My style is an offshoot of Shotokan. I personally don't train Shotokan but in many respects train like the Shotokan curriculum advocates. I do like Shotokan as a means to study traditional karate principles. I feel very strong Ginchin Funakoshi along with his Okinawan cohorts did an outstanding job there in presenting traditional karate to the entire world.
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On your mental toughness discourse, I'm sure you resonate with like-minded. I have no qualms about referring all the dropouts from the Branch Master's MMA class to your dojo. We're just pitiful bookworms to them too.
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Thanks for the workout (mild). No smiley face [either].
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P.S. I think ALL the traditional karate styles are highly effective when the traditional, underlying principles are observed. I really do like Shotokan as a discussion style, since it is so popular and emphasized the basics so much. The curriculum is very detailed & explanative compared to certain other styles, some of which have a lot of complexity which makes getting at the underlying fundamentals problematic. I think studying Shotokan yet observing it's Okinawan roots is a very good way for many if not most to do. It's not what I did. I believe a true Shotokan Master is a real force to be reckoned with--no thanks at my level.

 

[ShotoNoob]

"WHY DOES KARATE HAVE BETTER KICKS THAN HANDS?"
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A great forum question and one we see played out all the time on so many an occasion.
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Truth be told (IMHO), the observation that karate kicks are better than hands results from inadequate traditional karate training. I attempted to set the framework for the answer in my response to Tez talking about the three progressive levels of karate practice: Casual, Sport-Competitor, Adherence to Traditional Principles (regardless of style).
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The lesson from the Okinawan Masters is the hands should be relied upon most, with the legs for support & mobility while secondary & supplementary in tactical application. Makes sense from a practical, evolutionary perspective.
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Karate hands are devastating performed at a high level. At the casual level, the naturally coordinated boxer-type may well run over you & your 'karate hands.'

 

[ShotoNoob]

I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.

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+1 (in principle).

 

[Tez3]

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On your mental toughness discourse, I'm sure you resonate with like-minded. I have no qualms about referring all the dropouts from the Branch Master's MMA class to your dojo. We're just pitiful bookworms to them too.
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Thanks for the workout (mild). No smiley face [either].
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P.S. I think ALL the traditional karate styles are highly effective when the traditional, underlying principles are observed. I really do like Shotokan as a discussion style, since it is so popular and emphasized the basics so much. The curriculum is very detailed & explanative compared to certain other styles, some of which have a lot of complexity which makes getting at the underlying fundamentals problematic. I think studying Shotokan yet observing it's Okinawan roots is a very good way for many if not most to do. It's not what I did. I believe a true Shotokan Master is a real force to be reckoned with--no thanks at my level.

You do know that some of your sentences make no sense don't you? Who is Branch Master? and 'Pitiful book worms'? you are talking to yourself I suspect, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Why are you putting an I between all your paragraphs? What workout? you really are being obtuse.
Send me any student you like, I'm not too proud to try and help anyone, I despise no one for attempting martial arts.
I originally asked a question about a statement you made, in return you made a mistake over the forum customs and were rude to me several times which is against the rules here as well as being far from your moral stance. style bashing is also against the rules. You seem not to like being questioned and seem to want to present yourself as a Guru rather than a fellow martial artist. You come up with a lot of what you think are put downs but I'm afraid they speak more of you not me.
I think you need to look to your history as regards traditional karate and Shotokan. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this as I really don't understand your sentences... such as the last one, what does 'no thanks at my level ' mean? Perhaps English isn't your first language and you wouldn't be so rude in your own, perhaps too you wouldn't assume you know anything about me or other posters on here.