Why is karate different from kung fu?

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by yentao
Why you scared?
Haha.. Exactly you said that the kanji of TSD and Karate were the same. THEN YOU and YOU FRIEND ARE SICK.

Hey did you check out the site? Admit it! You are humiliated.

I see, I'm not bothering ok just get out here and research more. This time to a korean pls..

You need to do more research.............your Chinese language is not good

 

[yentao]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
No it does not.

Shou in Chinese is the kanji for Te in Japanese.

Tang Soo Do, Tang Shou Dao, Kara Te Do all use the exact same kanji.

Do you have any references about these? Can you explain to me with a picture pls? :shrug:

I think I'm not mistaken because I also saw the Chinese term for Tang Soo Do.

Thanks

 

[yentao]

Here is my reference to show that I'm not fooling around.
AND that my chinese is not bad hahaha.

Meaning of Tang Soo Do

Hope you show yours too.

Shie Shie:asian:

 

[yentao]

I'm also beginning to understand what you mean and why you said that they are the same. It is because of "TE" in karaTE Do and the "Soo" in Tang Soo Do have the same meaning.

The term KARA and TANG are the only words that don't have similarities. I think this is the one that cause D.Cobb disagree with me.

Pls. check this out

Meaning Of TSD

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by yentao
I'm also beginning to understand what you mean and why you said that they are the same. It is because of "TE" in karaTE Do and the "Soo" in Tang Soo Do have the same meaning.

The term KARA and TANG are the only words that don't have similarities. I think this is the one that cause D.Cobb disagree with me.

Pls. check this out

Meaning Of TSD

On that webpage they use the Tang kanji which can also be said as kara or as To in Japanese, but in this use it is said as kara. This was the old way to write karate. Now the Japanese use a different kara kanji which means empty.

 

[yentao]

Ah ok so you mean that the original name of Karatedo "To Te Do"?

Is Karate came from the Tang Dynasty?

We are talking about Tang Soo Do here so can you give examples (similarities) that can make the two arts the same? What style of karate has similarities with Tang Soo Do then?

I know Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu Karate that only originates in the 1800's

There a lot of histories that say that TSD was founded during the Silla Dynasty and I know that Japanese have not yet invaded Korea at that time. I know that karate styles mostly came from Okinawa and this Okinawans learned Chinese martial arts in Fukien/Fujian province.

Here is one of the histories.
WTSD

 

[twinkletoes]

Yentao,

Early Japanese karate practitioners used the "Tang" character because to them it represented China. People understood that this was something Chinese when they saw that character. You are correct--most Japanese styles really were organized and began promulgation in the late 1800's.

Many instructors today will try to date their art well before that. I have heard many Okinawan karate instructors say that when Chinese Martial Arts came, they were blended with indigenous Okinawan fighting styles that have existed since ancient times. I don't know if this was true or not: I wasn't there.

I do know that in a sense, you are correct. Korean Martial Arts date back to the Korean "renaissance" era (I forget the name they use for it), in which a group of elite soldiers known as the Taekkyon had already established a Korean Martial Art resembling modern Korean MA. This was most likely the predecessor that most people are referring to when they say that Korean MA pre-date Japanese occupation.

My own knowledge of Korean MA history is fairly limited, but I too have heard that the Japanese influence on Korea during the occupation involved the spreading of several Japanese ideas, one of which was the newly organized Japanese Karate systems. Certainly this must have influenced the Koreans, even if their own methods had been established previously.

The name change in Japan (from "T'ang Hand" to "Empty Hand") happened around this same time period. Japan experienced a period of great distrust of foreign things and ideas, and so instructors changed the name to make it sound more like something "Japanese." Also, they introduced the idea of "Karate-do" instead of "Karate-jutsu."

I am not sure what effect the name changing in Japan had on the Korean Martial Artists, if any. It is certainly likely, though, that they influenced contemporary Korean arts.

~TT

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by yentao
Ah ok so you mean that the original name of Karatedo "To Te Do"?

Is Karate came from the Tang Dynasty?

We are talking about Tang Soo Do here so can you give examples (similarities) that can make the two arts the same? What style of karate has similarities with Tang Soo Do then?

I know Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu Karate that only originates in the 1800's

There a lot of histories that say that TSD was founded during the Silla Dynasty and I know that Japanese have not yet invaded Korea at that time. I know that karate styles mostly came from Okinawa and this Okinawans learned Chinese martial arts in Fukien/Fujian province.

Here is one of the histories.
WTSD

Orignal name for karate was either Tode or Todi and can also be said as karate using exact same kanji.
Karate was also called Ryukyu Kempo Tode/karate jutsu.

The To or Tang kanji is the old Japaense word used to say China and did not really mean Tang Dynasty.
Maybe karate came to Okinawa during Tang dynasty in the form of kungfu?

Goju and Uechi are new styles of karate started in the 1900's. Some say they came from people who studied in China but we now know it's not 100% true.

Styles that have similarities to Tang Soo Do are many Shuri styles.

Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwan Do both claim to be from Korea but its funny that they both use kata that were either named after or invented invented by pure Okinawan that only taught in Okinawa.
Pinnan kata for example........


I think you research into Tang soo do is not so deep or maybe you are reading and believing the ultra right korean versions of korean martial arts history

 

[white belt]

Tang Soo Do uses almost strictly Shotokan Karate kata. These were grouped together by Funakoshi in the early 20th century. Ask anyone on this forum who has studied both TSD and Karate and they will tell you they are virtually the same.

Arnisador helped me research my TKD-Karate-Five Ancestors Fist lineage but, he has now more concisely focused my real curiosities. My TKD forms are born of Karate and Kung Fu heritage with Korean alterations. Arnisador is right though, they don't much look like Kung Fu. Good thread.

white belt

 

[yentao]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Orignal name for karate was either Tode or Todi and can also be said as karate using exact same kanji.
Karate was also called Ryukyu Kempo Tode/karate jutsu.

The To or Tang kanji is the old Japaense word used to say China and did not really mean Tang Dynasty.
Maybe karate came to Okinawa during Tang dynasty in the form of kungfu?

Goju and Uechi are new styles of karate started in the 1900's. Some say they came from people who studied in China but we now know it's not 100% true.

Styles that have similarities to Tang Soo Do are many Shuri styles.

Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwan Do both claim to be from Korea but its funny that they both use kata that were either named after or invented invented by pure Okinawan that only taught in Okinawa.
Pinnan kata for example........


I think you research into Tang soo do is not so deep or maybe you are reading and believing the ultra right korean versions of korean martial arts history

Well first Tang Soo Do was a korean art of course i'll give more credit on them than the Japanese.

Maybe there is an influence on the style during the Japanese invasion,.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by yentao
Well first Tang Soo Do was a korean art of course i'll give more credit on them than the Japanese.

Maybe there is an influence on the style during the Japanese invasion,.

Japanese influence during some Japanese invasion??
I know Japan invaded korean several times over the last 400 years but the Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s so that idea is impossible.

I see no influence by korean artss on okinawan martial arts, physically, written or otherwise.
I do see proof of heavy influence by Japanese and Okinawa arts on so called "old" korean arts like tang soo do, tae kwan do, yudo and kimdo. I know koreans hate to admit they are influnced this way and want people to think they had these arts long before Japan or helped Japan to make these arts but it is not true.

 

[yentao]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
Japanese influence during some Japanese invasion??
I know Japan invaded korean several times over the last 400 years but the Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s so that idea is impossible.

I see no influence by korean artss on okinawan martial arts, physically, written or otherwise.
I do see proof of heavy influence by Japanese and Okinawa arts on so called "old" korean arts like tang soo do, tae kwan do, yudo and kimdo. I know koreans hate to admit they are influnced this way and want people to think they had these arts long before Japan or helped Japan to make these arts but it is not true.

What are you a racist? You said Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s? AHAHAHAHAHA. Get a life.

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by yentao
What are you a racist? You said Japanese didn't have karate until 1920s? AHAHAHAHAHA. Get a life.

If you read karate's history you can see that karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the 1920's by Mr. Funakoshi and Mr. Motobu and not until then.

You can also read books on Okinawa and Japan's history that is very clear in stating they were 2 different countries.

These two facts are obvious to most people that have read even a small amount of material on the subject of karate.

 

[Victor Smith]

The relationship between Tang Soo Do and Shotokan is very clear.

First for approximately 50 years before WWII, Korea was conquered by the Japanese, and very horribly abused in the process. Any natural Korean arts were surpressed.

Judo (Korean Yudo) came to Korea and after Funakoshi Ginchin (and a group of other Okinawan Instructors) shared Okinawan Karate in Japan, especially as Shotokan was taught at the Naval War College, it is very likely that it was the Military that were practicing Shotokan in Korea and the likely point of insertion.

Besides the relationship between Tang Soo Do and Karate as terms, the Kata curricula fo Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan is almost identical to Shotokan (abet with some modifications), and most of the kata have names which are also very similar.

Not just TSD, but TKD, when General Choi first published a text on Tae Kwon Do he included all of the Shotokan forms in it along with his new forms (and if you ever see a copy you can see the similarities).

Likewise Hapikido (one group of which) goes back to a Korean training in Daito Ryu Jujutsu.

At the same time, since the war you will not find Korean references of these origins. After all if the Japanese had brutally used your country, your women and your resources for generations why would you want to acknowledge anything you got from them.

Nor should they. That doesn' t change origins, just makes it very muddy water to discuss.

When TKD was in the Seoul Olympics, Japanese competitors faced incredibly hostile Korean audiences. The past isn't forgotten, as much as the Japanese keep pretending it didn't exist.

So what is the truth about original Korean arts, very, very, very hard to determine. But then much of the past of all arts will remain muddy, too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

 

[white belt]

That last post by Victor was identical in content to all the evidence I have come across. Honest and succinct.

white belt
(TKD instructor and school owner.)

 

[yentao]

Originally posted by Rick Tsubota
If you read karate's history you can see that karate was introduced to mainland Japan in the 1920's by Mr. Funakoshi and Mr. Motobu and not until then.

You can also read books on Okinawa and Japan's history that is very clear in stating they were 2 different countries.

These two facts are obvious to most people that have read even a small amount of material on the subject of karate.

Really ha why there are a lot of japanese samurai who knows karate back in the 1800's ahemmm... I don't get you at all.:shrug:

If so why there is a similarity in the art of Tang Soo Do and Karate. So your trying to say that the karate first introduced to Korea before mainland Japan? Why then there are a lot more master in korea than that of Japan around the 1920's?

 

[white belt]

Originally posted by yentao
Really ha why there are a lot of japanese samurai who knows karate back in the 1800's ahemmm... I don't get you at all.:shrug:

If so why there is a similarity in the art of Tang Soo Do and Karate. So your trying to say that the karate first introduced to Korea before mainland Japan? Why then there are a lot more master in korea than that of Japan around the 1920's?

Now THAT is an interesting statement! Could you please give us the specific source or sources of material that proves more TSD / Karate masters were present in Korea than Japan (Okinawa too?) around the 1920's? That is a claim I have never come across. History is an interesting subject especially when concerning lineage.

white belt

 

[yentao]

Check this site http://www.worldtangsoodo.com/ I don't get it at all. Why there is a Tang Soo Do in Korea? While Karate was still not recognized in mainland Japan?

 

[white belt]

Appreciate the web site. Don't seem to see an icon or page to click onto showing traceable lineage for the head of this association (?). The Okinawans / Japanese do a pretty good job of showing ancestry that goes back to China for their systems. Any such thing, using names, for TSD going back to the 19th century?

white belt