My martial art is better than your martial art

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Xue Sheng

Xue Sheng

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Rook said:
I am being rather general, but I do think that some arts are vastly better than others for different purposes. True, there are certainly reasons to ride horses instead of drive cars or use a bow instead of a gun, and likewise I think there is lots of room, for instance, for using Aikido to restrain an incompetent opponent without injuring him, or riding a horse through a gap too narrow for a car.

The problem is when people assert that they can do something, but then fail to follow it up by providing proof of it being done (like a ninja beating an MMAist, a horse outracing a car, or an arrow outdistancing a rifle).

I don't have a problem with saying that traditional CMA conveys Chinese culture, or that shorinji kenpo is a great way to aquire patience, or that TKD demos are a great way to stay in shape. I don't even have a problem with calling them effective fighting systems any more than I have a problem with calling horses fast or bows long-shooting. I do think it is absurd to say they can beat MMA proponents when it hasn't been done.

You have missed the entire point and I am sorry but you are displaying the very arrogance I speak of.

And how many other arts have you studied in depth to come to this decision and how long have you trained MMA?\

And what about Cung Lee (Please for give the spelling) a CMA person beating MMAists?

And again I am sorry but your examples are excuses to support that.

But it is what you believe and you are strong in that belief and I hope it never fails you.

And the only logical answer to you then can be duì niú tán qín
 

hongkongfooey

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I think that everyone is tired of this pointless my pee-pee is bigger than you pee-pee type of debate. All martial arts have something to offer in one way or another. If someone doesn't like Karate, then don't do Karate.

I get tired of the I do _______________ (fill in the blank), and can never be beaten. What a load of crap that is. Grapplers can be knocked out, and strikers can be taken down, and fan boys that think they have great skills usually suck, they just don't know it. Most of the people spouting off about their great skills, are barely out of their teens, if that.

Most people don't need to be the ultimate fighter, most don't want to be anyway. When a person has a family, a full time job, and bills to pay, fighting isn't that important. It's actually pretty rare for a person over 30
to get into a fight, unless they live in a bar or go looking for trouble.

Do what you enjoy and be happy.
 

Rook

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Xue Sheng said:
You have missed the entire point and I am sorry but you are displaying the very arrogance I speak of.

I'm sorry I missed your point.

And how many other arts have you studied in depth to come to this decision and how long have you trained MMA?

This is nothing but a bad excuse. Any observer should be able to figure out who won a decisive fight when it occurs. Anyone should be able to look at the fights that have happened and draw the correct conclusion. One does not need to be a master horseman or a Formula One driver to know that a racecar is faster than a horse - they need only look up the top speeds or watch either race.

And what about Cung Lee (Please for give the spelling) a CMA person beating MMAists?

He practices a modern sports style fighting system. He trains in a gym, wears fighting trunks, spars full contact, throws boxing style punches, uses western wrestling takedowns, and uses kickboxing kicks. He competes in sports competitions and has a record. He IS a sports fighter.

The use of the boxing jab and the raised heels are giveaways even to someone who knows nothing much about kung fu or western styles.

And again I am sorry but your examples are excuses to support that.

But it is what you believe and you are strong in that belief and I hope it never fails you.

And the only logical answer to you then can be duì niú tán qín

Ok.
 

Rook

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Flying Crane said:
If you think this is true, you should check out this thread, the very first post...

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37193

Multiple problems here.

1. How do we know this even happened, or if it did, if it occured as described? There is no video and no record of the fight.

2. How do we know that the guy trained MMA? He grabbed the guy's leg in what in some way seemed like a wrestling-style takedown - which basically doesn't indicate anything.
 

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hongkongfooey said:
I think that everyone is tired of this pointless my pee-pee is bigger than you pee-pee type of debate. All martial arts have something to offer in one way or another. If someone doesn't like Karate, then don't do Karate.

I get tired of the I do _______________ (fill in the blank), and can never be beaten. What a load of crap that is. Grapplers can be knocked out, and strikers can be taken down, and fan boys that think they have great skills usually suck, they just don't know it. Most of the people spouting off about their great skills, are barely out of their teens, if that.

Most people don't need to be the ultimate fighter, most don't want to be anyway. When a person has a family, a full time job, and bills to pay, fighting isn't that important. It's actually pretty rare for a person over 30
to get into a fight, unless they live in a bar or go looking for trouble.

Do what you enjoy and be happy.

I totally agree, I think it is obvious when you get to the level of maturity, that you can see the bigger picture.
 
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Xue Sheng

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Rook said:
This is nothing but a bad excuse. Any observer should be able to figure out who won a decisive fight when it occurs. Anyone should be able to look at the fights that have happened and draw the correct conclusion. One does not need to be a master horseman or a Formula One driver to know that a racecar is faster than a horse - they need only look up the top speeds or watch either race.

It is not a bad excuse it was a question that you apparently did not answer.

Let me ask it again:
And how many other arts have you studied in depth to come to this decision and how long have you trained MMA?

And please give up on the car/horse comparisons they do not work.

Rook said:
He practices a modern sports style fighting system. He trains in a gym, wears fighting trunks, spars full contact, throws boxing style punches, uses western wrestling takedowns, and uses kickboxing kicks. He competes in sports competitions and has a record. He IS a sports fighter.

The use of the boxing jab and the raised heels are giveaways even to someone who knows nothing much about kung fu or western styles.

Do you know anything about Sanda?

Do you no where it comes from?

And I will add I have said this time and time again. If you want to compare MMA and CMA you have to look to Sanda.

And yet Lee is not trained in MMA and you are at least hinting at the fact that MMA is better than everything else. And still Lee is doing ok in MMA so far.

I have absolutely nothing against MMA; actually I am rather impressed by the amount of training the MMA people put in. What I am not impressed by are things I posted in my original post. The arrogance whether that arrogance comes from a TMA, CMA, JMA, MMA, etc person it is still all the same arrogance and wrong
 

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Xue Sheng said:
And how many other arts have you studied in depth to come to this decision and how long have you trained MMA?

Haha. According to Rooks profile, he doesnt do MMA, he does Karate.

Hows the weather under that Bridge Rook?
 

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Rook said:
Multiple problems here.

1. How do we know this even happened, or if it did, if it occured as described? There is no video and no record of the fight.

So unless there is video of something, its a moot point? What about the successful defenses of average citizens? Those are not taped. On another note, I have heard in another thread I started, that weapon and mult. attacker defense is something addressed in MMA. Oddly enough, I haven't seen too many tapes of BJJ weapon defense on the market. Going on your analogy of things being taped, does this mean that they do not exist?

2. How do we know that the guy trained MMA? He grabbed the guy's leg in what in some way seemed like a wrestling-style takedown - which basically doesn't indicate anything.

See my above reply. Because this wasn't taped, it didn't happen??
 

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Technopunk said:
Oh man... there is no video of my Birth! I dont exist!

That makes 2 of us!:lol: :lol:
 
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Xue Sheng

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I think this has gotten off track and is turning into the very thing I am sick of MMA vs. TMA.

First post
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37992

Let me restate.

Comparing styles is one thing, comparing applications or approaches to a given situation are also good, we can learn that way. But coming out and saying my style is better than any one elses or this style is best is confrontational and just plain arrogant and it shows an incredible lack of understanding. And what some fail to see is it always boils down to the same thing every single time my style is better than your style, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, no it isn't, yes it is, repeat several hundred more times.

Now I will add that I would agree with this; a Wing Chun vs. Shaolin long Fist for example. Both practitioners being of equal skill

In the close quarters of Hong Kong I believe the Wing Chun person would have an advantage where in the open space of Beijing the Long fist person would have the advantage. This does not mean one is better than the other it just means that a given art may be more advantageous in a given location or situation.

Compare the 3 versions of Sanshou, Military, Police and sport. Each has its advantages and disadvantages in a given location. You would not do so well with the military version in a ring you would be disqualified and you would be better with the military version in a war zone than the sport version or police version. The police version seems to fall somewhere in teh middle between military and sport. But this is still not saying one is better than the other they are all good for what they are training for.
 

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MJS said:
So unless there is video of something, its a moot point? What about the successful defenses of average citizens? Those are not taped.

Ok. Let me try and clarify. Stuff without video or any sort of independant confirmation from reliable sources relies purely on the word of the person telling the story. Sometimes people, myself included, just take them at their word because it isn't worth debating whether something actually happened. However, when something is trotted out as the premises for a conclusion, there should be some sort of verifiable truth to it - a police report, a credible journalistic account, court testimony, video, things of that nature. They still aren't foolproof, but I don't think that a situation in which one side presents extensive evidence and the other presents nothing but their conclusion on the grounds that they say so, who to believe is an easy question.

On another note, I have heard in another thread I started, that weapon and mult. attacker defense is something addressed in MMA. Oddly enough, I haven't seen too many tapes of BJJ weapon defense on the market. Going on your analogy of things being taped, does this mean that they do not exist?

You mean exist as in used on the streets? I am not aware of any style that has more than one or two videos of actual street attacks with knives... the literature and training in this area is pretty speculative. Concluding the efficacy of BJJ or Sambo or MMA counterknifetraining vs. any other style would be problematic.

See my above reply. Because this wasn't taped, it didn't happen??

It might or might not have happened. Without any verification, we have no reason to believe it did or did not. That doesn't make much for convincing proof.
 

Rook

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Xue Sheng said:
It is not a bad excuse it was a question that you apparently did not answer.

What is the point?

Let me ask it again:
And how many other arts have you studied in depth to come to this decision and how long have you trained MMA?

Why would this matter?

And please give up on the car/horse comparisons they do not work.

Alright.


Do you know anything about Sanda?
Do you know where it comes from?


It is a fighting system created in China origionally for military use. Its top proponents utilize modern western boxing punches, modern kickboxing kicks, western wrestling takedowns. While Sanda competitions are open to traditional CMAists, modern San Shou competition bears little resemblance to anything but kickboxing with takedowns.


And I will add I have said this time and time again. If you want to compare MMA and CMA you have to look to Sanda.
And yet Lee is not trained in MMA and you are at least hinting at the fact that MMA is better than everything else. And still Lee is doing ok in MMA so far.

I have absolutely nothing against MMA; actually I am rather impressed by the amount of training the MMA people put in. What I am not impressed by are things I posted in my original post. The arrogance whether that arrogance comes from a TMA, CMA, JMA, MMA, etc person it is still all the same arrogance and wrong

Lee trains in a modern manner in a modernized style.
 
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