"Hakutsuru" and Karate, Does it exist?

[shifu]

Is "Hakutsuru" something theat is proven to be related to the Karate of Okinawa?

Does Fuzhou White Crane have any real link to the "Hakutsuru" as seen in many Okinawan styles?

Many within the martial arts world state that their exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane.

To me, Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.

Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what is done in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.

As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

There is no passing on of the He Quan Quan Jue or Crane Fist Fist Poems in Okinawan karate as is seen within Fuzhou White Crane, no Waveform jin or other essential aspects of the art.

Are those who lay claim to teaching a "Hakusturu" Kata simply misguided?

What are your thoughts on the subject?

 

[Jin Gang]

Who cares? Just train.

 

[jks9199]

Different people have different interests in their training. Some are simply after a physical activity, or even just into fighting. Others are interested in the culture or history of the style. Fortunately, there's room for both views in the world.

 

[hpulley]

Hakutsuru is excellent sake, but save it for after training please! ;-)

Seriously though, while Bai Hei is considered one of the ancestor schools of Gojuryu I think it is a bit murky if they actually studied that original form or just derivative kung fu forms which were themselves influenced by white crane boxing. Both the founders did travel to Fujian province but I'm not sure there is an accepted list of schools and masters under which they studied, hence direct lineage is difficult if not impossible to pin down. It is said that sanchin is from white crane but directly or indirectly, who knows?

My gojuryu sensei has also trained in white crane boxing, bagua, returning wave, et al in the Shaolin Temple in China. While not required elements of the karatedo program he teaches us some of it during special seminars like this weekend (along with Chinese weapons to compliment kobudo, et al) and in the tai chi (taitiquan, qigong, bagua) class which is separate. By seeing some early Chinese forms it is interesting to see what might have been influences for the Okinawan systems along with Nahate and other indigenous systems. You can see the different philosphy, the different interpretations which is quite intriguing but from a historical perspective I don't know if it is possible to draw conclusions from it.

 

[chinto]

yes there is a link.. there was an article in black belt magizine about a year ago or so where a matsumura seito instructor went to china and was doing hakutsuru kata and the local white crane instructor from one of the fukuian crane styles did his and it was almost identical except the okinawans do not do the facial expresions. this is I understand true for several of the versions of hakutsuru kata from several styles as far as being from one of the several styles of crane system from southern china and the okinawan kata.

I would suggest that this would indicate that there is indeed a link, more directly to some styles then perhaps others, but its still there.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Some how most things today are inter-connected....

The world is small .....I know...I have one at home sitting on the desk.

Aloha,

PS: today is October 25,2008 and it snow today on Mauna Kea mountain...you can see it from our house. (the side that is facing the mountain)

Located on the Big Island of Hawaii!

 

[punisher73]

yes there is a link.. there was an article in black belt magizine about a year ago or so where a matsumura seito instructor went to china and was doing hakutsuru kata and the local white crane instructor from one of the fukuian crane styles did his and it was almost identical except the okinawans do not do the facial expresions. this is I understand true for several of the versions of hakutsuru kata from several styles as far as being from one of the several styles of crane system from southern china and the okinawan kata.

I would suggest that this would indicate that there is indeed a link, more directly to some styles then perhaps others, but its still there.

There are a couple of links to white crane and karate. Probably one of the most famous is the Bubishi. In it there are several articles about Crane fist boxing. This text was a prized possession among early karate masters.

Another one is like what was pointed out above. Karatekas have gone to China and comparted katas with different styles and have found that some of it matches. I remember reading an interview with Morio Higaonna and he stated that he went to China to trace the roots of Goju-Ryu and they brought in masters of several different styles of kung fu and showed their katas/forms. Higaonna said that they looked very similiar to what was being done in goju-ryu. He then stated that Crane was an influence on Goju-ryu.

I also think that being an influence does not mean that you have all of the elements of that particular style. You will see some similiarities and things that are done the same, but you will also see differences as well. I have also read that many styles have claimed "Hakutsuru" as a direct lineage and then other styles have said that it was self-created and they didn't learn the "true secrets" of it, but they did.

So some of the controversy also lies in the "my dad can beat up your dad" propogana amongst styles and lineages.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

To some extent yes it is in okinawan karate to what extent I don't know but it is there.

 

[chinto]

There are a couple of links to white crane and karate. Probably one of the most famous is the Bubishi. In it there are several articles about Crane fist boxing. This text was a prized possession among early karate masters.

Another one is like what was pointed out above. Karatekas have gone to China and comparted katas with different styles and have found that some of it matches. I remember reading an interview with Morio Higaonna and he stated that he went to China to trace the roots of Goju-Ryu and they brought in masters of several different styles of kung fu and showed their katas/forms. Higaonna said that they looked very similiar to what was being done in goju-ryu. He then stated that Crane was an influence on Goju-ryu.

I also think that being an influence does not mean that you have all of the elements of that particular style. You will see some similiarities and things that are done the same, but you will also see differences as well. I have also read that many styles have claimed "Hakutsuru" as a direct lineage and then other styles have said that it was self-created and they didn't learn the "true secrets" of it, but they did.

So some of the controversy also lies in the "my dad can beat up your dad" propogana amongst styles and lineages.

yes the bubushi is another link, as is the fact as you said many went to southern china to study as well. they mixed what they learned there with what was native to Okinawa and came up with karate. again, some more so then others changed things. each of the 3 main lineages from shuri, and tamari and naha taking what it found most useful and fitted their needs or what have you. From there we have developed into diferent branches on down.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

I've done a few Hakutsuru Kata, but never any CMA, so I don't know about the connection other than the Black Belt article by George Alexander that wqas already mentioned.

 

[chinto]

I've done a few Hakutsuru Kata, but never any CMA, so I don't know about the connection other than the Black Belt article by George Alexander that wqas already mentioned.

have you done a CMA style that was a fukuian crane style?