Karate does not come from White Crane

[Bill Mattocks]

In his very first post the OP says he's 'stirring things up', I thought that wasn't allowed around here?

I took it to mean 'stimulating conversation' rather than 'inciting a riot'.



In any case, I understand and support legitimate historic exploration of the common roots (such as may exist) of our arts. I just don't find it to be something that dominates my life or thinking.

 

[Buka29 3]

There are also forms of American Karate, such as practiced by @Buka.

Best to go to official Martial sources. Hence, I opened my official Martial source book -

American Karate - Noun (on a good day)
A·mer·i·can ka·ra·te....... . /əˈmerəkən/ kəˈrädē/

Bunch of guys who did karate came back from serving overseas. Opened some schools, many next to ice cream pallors. Some other guy, called it American Karate. He must have had an extra flag or something.
Technically, it doesn't exist. Except for maybe Master Ken. Anyone who claims to practice said Art should be taken as shady at best.

Nowhere did I find any reference to White Crane. However, looking at myself in the mirror, I suspect White Eyebrow Kung Fu might be involved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

 

[hoshin160022 1]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

i am not sure what your point is of posting these youtube clips. it serves no purpose. first clip is a style of san zhan that has no "DNA markers" that are related to karate. and the second clip is a video of a relative modern form created Chojun Miyagi.

 

[Buka29 3]

Back in the 80, I had helped an Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book from Chinese into English. Some Okinawan Karate guys believe there is connection there.

This is white crane San Zhan:

This is Karate Sanchin:

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

 

[JP3]

To be perfectly frank about it, I think that the martial art (arts if you want to be precise) that I practice have only the same level of relationship to what was taught/created in Asia as shoe technology then has to shoe technology now. In other words, I think things continue to grow, develop, some things slough off (perhaps unfortunately in some cases) some things are cast away for various reasons (both good and bad), and so forth.

The aikido transmitted to me via Ray and Nick simply does not "look" like the video we have of Tomiki practicing. It is odd to say, but watching those old clips, we see form and posture breaks that we are training out of white belts now because, to us, they are obviously and proveably incorrect. So, are we missing something, or was he? Either could be accurate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang114 144]

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

I don't know. I don't train white crane.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.

 

[DanT]

Bro, I've not seen the San Zhan form before, what is the significance of the flicking fingers? Thanks.

The shaking is caused by him tensing up his arms so much they shake. It's called Shaking Power (dynamic tension). It serves to strengthen the muscles and ligaments and tendons.

 

[DanT]

This has a karate-like look to me. Its not identified as white crane though. I would really like to know what he is doing when he rotates his forearm after the punch. He has breathing going on too. Has a nice flow to it.

It's called "dynamic tension" and serves to strengthen the muscles, tendons, and ligaments.

 

[DanT]

I don't know. I don't train white crane.

Check my response.

 

[iain_meyers]

Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.

So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.

Now, how certain we are that Goju-ryu (at least) has Crying Crane at its core? Easiest thing is to look at the katas. If Higaonna has been a student of Xie Zhongxiang, he should have learned some Crying Crane routines. So which forms does the style teach nowadays? Apparently at least following: Babulian, Ershiba su, Zhongkuang, Roujian and Qijing. They might also have Sanchin, but I cannot verify it 100 %. Higaonna himself, however, most likely taught only four katas: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Suparimpei. None of the forms match.

We could of course go on saying that these Crane forms have been added later on and were not among those taught by Xie Zhongxiang. To scrutinize this, we have to look at his other students and see what they have taught. Luckily we know one, Huang Xinxiang. He was later in his martial arts career a student of Taiji master Zheng Manqing (is usually written, like, Cheng Man Ch'ing or something?) and later created his own Huang-style taiji. This style of taiji is curious since it actually contains few crane forms. Which ones? Babulian and Ershiba su, renamed Sanfeng Kuaiquan (Three Peaks Quick Fist; after the peaks of Wudang mountains, I guess). Thus we can say that Xie Zhongxiang taught at least Babulian and Ershiba su, but Kanryo Higaonna never learned those core forms of the style. Why?

To me the simplest explanation is, already with this non-historical forms transmission only -analysis, that Xie Zhongxiang is NOT Ru Ru Ko and Crying Crane has nothing to do with karate.

What do you think?

Interesting post. Where do you think karate came from?

 

[iain_meyers]

5 ancestor fist?

 

[DaveB]

Hello all,

The main white crane connection that I am aware of is secret passing of the bubishi around by various Okinawan experts.

Goju ryu has an obvious resemblance to hakka kungfu and all those millions of southern styles resemble one another supposedly because they share a connection to white crane.

I knew of one research group that didn't even classify goju as karate but rather as a style of kungfu.

Is the specific style a progenitor to karate? Maybe, maybe not, but saying so is in my view a reasonable shorthand for the southern Chinese connection that is definitely real.

 

[Randy Lin]

Heh, I'm just trying to ruffle some feathers and try to be critical about one of the biggest myths in the Karate lore.

So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane), which itself is a hybrid of Southern Luohan and Crane methods. Assuming we know nothing of Crying Crane (and that the connection to him is certain), we should be equally safe to assume that Karate traces itself to Luohan as well.

Now, how certain we are that Goju-ryu (at least) has Crying Crane at its core? Easiest thing is to look at the katas. If Higaonna has been a student of Xie Zhongxiang, he should have learned some Crying Crane routines. So which forms does the style teach nowadays? Apparently at least following: Babulian, Ershiba su, Zhongkuang, Roujian and Qijing. They might also have Sanchin, but I cannot verify it 100 %. Higaonna himself, however, most likely taught only four katas: Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Suparimpei. None of the forms match.

We could of course go on saying that these Crane forms have been added later on and were not among those taught by Xie Zhongxiang. To scrutinize this, we have to look at his other students and see what they have taught. Luckily we know one, Huang Xinxiang. He was later in his martial arts career a student of Taiji master Zheng Manqing (is usually written, like, Cheng Man Ch'ing or something?) and later created his own Huang-style taiji. This style of taiji is curious since it actually contains few crane forms. Which ones? Babulian and Ershiba su, renamed Sanfeng Kuaiquan (Three Peaks Quick Fist; after the peaks of Wudang mountains, I guess). Thus we can say that Xie Zhongxiang taught at least Babulian and Ershiba su, but Kanryo Higaonna never learned those core forms of the style. Why?

To me the simplest explanation is, already with this non-historical forms transmission only -analysis, that Xie Zhongxiang is NOT Ru Ru Ko and Crying Crane has nothing to do with karate.

What do you think?

Its a mystery but taiwan is 70 miles from Yonaguni, maybe 300 from Ishigashi,and from there you're in okinawa. I suspect it some of the techniques came from there.

 

[isshinryuronin4 3]

So people generally go on saying that the roots of Karate are in White Crane Boxing of Fujian province, China. However, this is devilishly difficult to confirm and particularly dubious since the claim is that teacher of Kanryo Higaonna (master of Goju-ryu founder Chojun Miyagi), Ru Ru Ko, is Xie Zhongxiang. Xie Zhongxiang himself was not a practicioner or teacher of White Crane but Minghequan (or Crying/Calling Crane)

Lin in his above post revived an old but interesting one. I agree with all the above from the original OP. Ryu Ru Ko (likely aka Xie Zhongxiang) did teach Higaonna calling/whooping crane, an art he learned from his teacher Pan Yuba who in turn took his teacher's (Lin Shixian), white crane and modified it so there is a connection.

Admittedly, going back in time the exact history is cloudy. It should be noted Higaonna (aka Higashionna) spent much time in Southern China in the late 1800's and learned from various kung fu teachers. Both crane and luohan (aka monk fist) are both prominent in the Bubishi and influenced karate masters in the early 1900's.

However, karate's precurser was an Okinawan thing prior to Higaonna, notably in Sakugawa's time (late 1700's) and passed on to his student, Matsumura who, if I remember correctly, spent time in Northern China. It would be safe to say karate had several main streams. The Shuri-te branch (perhaps originally more Shaolin/military based) and the Naha-te branch being more southern crane based. All this is generalization as there was a lot of cross training between early karate masters. Karate has NO single source.

Bunch of guys who did karate came back from serving overseas. Opened some schools, many next to ice cream pallors.

Interesting. The kenpo school I ran was right next to an ice cream parlor!!! (their pineapple milkshakes being a main energy source for me living in the dojo). Weird, huh? On the other side was a billiard parlor run by old Grady who did not appreciate us boisterous young karate studs coming in and disrupting his domain. Never a dull moment during those action-packed days.

 

[Buka29 3]

Lin in his above post revived an old but interesting one. I agree with all the above from the original OP. Ryu Ru Ko (likely aka Xie Zhongxiang) did teach Higaonna calling/whooping crane, an art he learned from his teacher Pan Yuba who in turn took his teacher's (Lin Shixian), white crane and modified it so there is a connection.

Admittedly, going back in time the exact history is cloudy. It should be noted Higaonna (aka Higashionna) spent much time in Southern China in the late 1800's and learned from various kung fu teachers. Both crane and luohan (aka monk fist) are both prominent in the Bubishi and influenced karate masters in the early 1900's.

However, karate's precurser was an Okinawan thing prior to Higaonna, notably in Sakugawa's time (late 1700's) and passed on to his student, Matsumura who, if I remember correctly, spent time in Northern China. It would be safe to say karate had several main streams. The Shuri-te branch (perhaps originally more Shaolin/military based) and the Naha-te branch being more southern crane based. All this is generalization as there was a lot of cross training between early karate masters. Karate has NO single source.

Interesting. The kenpo school I ran was right next to an ice cream parlor!!! (their pineapple milkshakes being a main energy source for me living in the dojo). Weird, huh? On the other side was a billiard parlor run by old Grady who did not appreciate us boisterous young karate studs coming in and disrupting his domain. Never a dull moment during those action-packed days.

Get the F out of here. No, seriously go away, right the F now. Shoo!

I’ve been on this forum for a while now, been in the arts for most of my life. Go the F away.

My Mind is officially blown. I don’t even know how to process what you just said..

It hasn’t nothing to do with you or what you posted. You just covered my entire Martial life.

Holy f’n sheet.

 

[Stuarto75 16]

Best to go to official Martial sources. Hence, I opened my official Martial source book -

American Karate - Noun (on a good day)
A·mer·i·can ka·ra·te....... . /əˈmerəkən/ kəˈrädē/

Bunch of guys who did karate came back from serving overseas. Opened some schools, many next to ice cream pallors. Some other guy, called it American Karate. He must have had an extra flag or something.
Technically, it doesn't exist. Except for maybe Master Ken. Anyone who claims to practice said Art should be taken as shady at best.

Nowhere did I find any reference to White Crane. However, looking at myself in the mirror, I suspect White Eyebrow Kung Fu might be involved.

Always remember to stomp the groin!

 

[Buka29 3]

Lin in his above post revived an old but interesting one. I agree with all the above from the original OP. Ryu Ru Ko (likely aka Xie Zhongxiang) did teach Higaonna calling/whooping crane, an art he learned from his teacher Pan Yuba who in turn took his teacher's (Lin Shixian), white crane and modified it so there is a connection.

Admittedly, going back in time the exact history is cloudy. It should be noted Higaonna (aka Higashionna) spent much time in Southern China in the late 1800's and learned from various kung fu teachers. Both crane and luohan (aka monk fist) are both prominent in the Bubishi and influenced karate masters in the early 1900's.

However, karate's precurser was an Okinawan thing prior to Higaonna, notably in Sakugawa's time (late 1700's) and passed on to his student, Matsumura who, if I remember correctly, spent time in Northern China. It would be safe to say karate had several main streams. The Shuri-te branch (perhaps originally more Shaolin/military based) and the Naha-te branch being more southern crane based. All this is generalization as there was a lot of cross training between early karate masters. Karate has NO single source.

Interesting. The kenpo school I ran was right next to an ice cream parlor!!! (their pineapple milkshakes being a main energy source for me living in the dojo). Weird, huh? On the other side was a billiard parlor run by old Grady who did not appreciate us boisterous young karate studs coming in and disrupting his domain. Never a dull moment during those action-packed days.

I wanted to elaborate about how I first responded to your post. Because it really did blow my mind.

The dojo I ran for the greater part of my martial career was originally a billiards parlor. (Eighteen beautiful tables.) Where I spent a great deal of my misspent youth shooting straight pool and nine ball.

I worked there through college, sitting at the counter reading karate books, and cleaning the tables in the morning before going to UMass Boston to skip classes.

Once the dojo was established, our landlord, a wonderful man I had known since I was a kid, went to “ice cream school” and opened an ice cream place above the dojo. Which still exists to this day. And it’s great ice cream. He used to come downstairs to the dojo after class, give everyone three tiny cups of ice cream and ask us questions about which we liked better and why.

When I read your post I was like…whoa, dude.
It really did blow my mind.

 

[Xue Sheng107 24]

@isshinryuronin & @Buka

You guys have to stop this reminiscing, you’re REALLY making me miss the old days of MA training. I wasn’t running a school, but I was one of the kids attending schools like what you are talking about, no pool hall or ice cream, but fencing school and pizza…well one was near a pool hall I went to, but not that close….. I miss those days….so quit it.. you’re getting me all misty eyed ….