Who Has The Market Cornered On Kenpo?

[MJS]

So, while surfing the KN, I come across a post. Someone had linked a youtube clip to one of Atacx Gyms Kenpo clips. There were some good comments and some bad ones. For the record, I've seen a few of his clips, and I've enjoyed what I saw.

However, some people started bashing because it was different, his take on things wasn't the same as theirs, and so on and so on.

So, this brings me to the question...who has the market cornered on how Kenpo is done? Seems like in many cases, if you dont do things like (insert any Kenpo GM) then you're wrong. If you dont do things like someone thinks you should be doing it, you're wrong. Have a different take on applying something? Nope, dont bother, you're wrong.

I mean really, is this what Mr. Parker had intended for his art to be....a bunch of robots all doing the same thing? Someone in that KN thread, commented that Parker himself, made changes, as did the Tracy brothers.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

So, while surfing the KN, I come across a post. Someone had linked a youtube clip to one of Atacx Gyms Kenpo clips. There were some good comments and some bad ones. For the record, I've seen a few of his clips, and I've enjoyed what I saw.

However, some people started bashing because it was different, his take on things wasn't the same as theirs, and so on and so on.

So, this brings me to the question...who has the market cornered on how Kenpo is done? Seems like in many cases, if you dont do things like (insert any Kenpo GM) then you're wrong. If you dont do things like someone thinks you should be doing it, you're wrong. Have a different take on applying something? Nope, dont bother, you're wrong.

I mean really, is this what Mr. Parker had intended for his art to be....a bunch of robots all doing the same thing? Someone in that KN thread, commented that Parker himself, made changes, as did the Tracy brothers.

I do.
If I dont like your Kenpo, then you are required to mail in your belt along with a self addressed stamped envelope so if I change my mind at a future date I can resend you a belt the color of my choosing.
any resistance will result in a firm tongue lashing from a buffalo named jimminy cricket, and a negative rep posting here on martial talk... be warned...
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I figured if we were going to discuss the absurd I would go ahead and go full out!
Now send me that belt! its revoked!

 

[K831]

So, while surfing the KN, I come across a post. Someone had linked a youtube clip to one of Atacx Gyms Kenpo clips. There were some good comments and some bad ones. For the record, I've seen a few of his clips, and I've enjoyed what I saw.

However, some people started bashing because it was different, his take on things wasn't the same as theirs, and so on and so on.

So, this brings me to the question...who has the market cornered on how Kenpo is done? Seems like in many cases, if you don't do things like (insert any Kenpo GM) then you're wrong. If you dont do things like someone thinks you should be doing it, you're wrong. Have a different take on applying something? Nope, dont bother, you're wrong.

I mean really, is this what Mr. Parker had intended for his art to be....a bunch of robots all doing the same thing? Someone in that KN thread, commented that Parker himself, made changes, as did the Tracy brothers.

I haven't been on Kenponet for a looooooong time, for just the reasons you mentioned. Last time I was there, it was pretty LTKKA dominated, and they were very traditionalist and so didn't like the Mills group much. I got tired of not being able to get through a thread with out hearing "you changed the techs, its not Kenpo". I mean, even one less technique and it "wasn't Kenpo anymore".

It is absurd. But I think there is something that makes American Kenpo, American Kenpo. It has its own driving philosophy, and a specific set of principles that govern its motion and mechanics. These make it easily recognizable. American Kenpo moves like nothing else accept American Kenpo. Some Kaju schools look similar, some FMA look similar, some shaolin Kenpo schools look similar, but the A. Kenpo is obvious still.

Now, I don't care what changes a solid practitioner makes to the curriculum, I would only cry fowl if he started violating those core principles. That I think would be grounds for a valid criticism.

I take a lot of my FMA back to my Kenpo class.... instructor could care less (often is quite interested) so long as I don't have crappy motion or violate the core kenpo principles.

My FMA instructor say I move my Kali like it was Kenpo. He thinks its great. We have a WC student in our Escrima group... wouldn't you know, he moves it like WC.

Don't we study AK for it's core mechanics? Ed Parker wasn't his techniques.. he was better than his techniques.... Ed Parker was his brilliant analysis of motion and mechanics... IMHO.

I hope my response was on topic... It's been a long day and I'm drowsy

 

[MJS]

I do.
If I dont like your Kenpo, then you are required to mail in your belt along with a self addressed stamped envelope so if I change my mind at a future date I can resend you a belt the color of my choosing.
any resistance will result in a firm tongue lashing from a buffalo named jimminy cricket, and a negative rep posting here on martial talk... be warned...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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I figured if we were going to discuss the absurd I would go ahead and go full out!
Now send me that belt! its revoked!

I hear ya. Be that as it may, absurd that is, it seems, to me anyways, that some people, namely some of some other forum, that if you're not going their way, then its the highway for you. LOL.

Oh, BTW, the belt is in the mail.

 

[LawDog]

Martial arts in general, Kenpo included, covers so many areas that no one system can properly cover them all.
Example,
Some kenpo schools may focus one the 1 vs 1 aspect of Kenpo training and they will draw those who are like minded.
Other Kenpo schools may focus on the take down to the ground aspect within a Kenpo system and they to will draw those who are like minded.
It's not what aspect of Kenpo that you teach or train in but instead the end result. Have you yourself and / or your students reached a high level of expertice in that chosen aspect? If so, then someone got it right.
Because a person doesn't like or agree with any Kenpo aspects doesn't mean that they are wrong, if they are then it could be the Sensei and not the system.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

How many kenpoists does it take to change a lightbulb?

12

1 to change the lightbulb

11 to say "that's not how sifu showed me"

 

[MJS]

I haven't been on Kenponet for a looooooong time, for just the reasons you mentioned. Last time I was there, it was pretty LTKKA dominated, and they were very traditionalist and so didn't like the Mills group much. I got tired of not being able to get through a thread with out hearing "you changed the techs, its not Kenpo". I mean, even one less technique and it "wasn't Kenpo anymore".

It is absurd. But I think there is something that makes American Kenpo, American Kenpo. It has its own driving philosophy, and a specific set of principles that govern its motion and mechanics. These make it easily recognizable. American Kenpo moves like nothing else accept American Kenpo. Some Kaju schools look similar, some FMA look similar, some shaolin Kenpo schools look similar, but the A. Kenpo is obvious still.

Now, I don't care what changes a solid practitioner makes to the curriculum, I would only cry fowl if he started violating those core principles. That I think would be grounds for a valid criticism.

I take a lot of my FMA back to my Kenpo class.... instructor could care less (often is quite interested) so long as I don't have crappy motion or violate the core kenpo principles.

My FMA instructor say I move my Kali like it was Kenpo. He thinks its great. We have a WC student in our Escrima group... wouldn't you know, he moves it like WC.

Don't we study AK for it's core mechanics? Ed Parker wasn't his techniques.. he was better than his techniques.... Ed Parker was his brilliant analysis of motion and mechanics... IMHO.

I hope my response was on topic... It's been a long day and I'm drowsy

Yeah, you're not missing much over there. Its the usual Tatumite nutswingers doing their preaching. LOL. Nothing against Tatum, but, you know. And yes, I've heard my share both online and while physically speaking to people, about Paul Mills, how he 'isnt doing Kenpo anymore', how this isnt the same, that isn't the same, blah, blah, blah.

You mention the same thing that someone on that KN thread recently did, about violating the basic principles, concepts, etc. I agree. IMO, I think its very possible, to make a change and still keep the concepts, ideas, etc. I think much like when some people hear BJJ, they automatically think ground, likewise, when some people hear change, they automatically think that it means totally rewriting the moves and forgetting about the rest.

 

[K831]

Yeah, you're not missing much over there. Its the usual Tatumite nutswingers doing their preaching. LOL. Nothing against Tatum, but, you know.

I started at a Kenpo 2000 school. I was at a Tatum school for a while. Instructor was nice (No names or places need be mentioned).. Tatum moved well at seminars, and I learned some good stuff from them. But suffice it to say, I was very conditioned into the whole "If you make a change, you just don't understand the technique" way of thinking. I was sold on the x amount of techniques done this way is kenpo and anything else isn't.

I went to my AKKI school very reluctantly, but when I moved, its all there was anywhere near me. This turned out to be the biggest blessing in my martial arts journey. Mills is just so far beyond and in his own league compared to what I had experienced before. I don't say this to denigrate any other Kenpo associations or instructors. There are many talented and skilled guys out there, and many I've never seen who are probably awesome. I say it just to make the point that Mills is incredible. Not just his own ability, but his ability to teach, analyze, change and reorganize..... and yet many won't even look at it to find the things they could learn from him.

I've gotten to the point where, these days, I just say "If you really want to know and see the difference, contact me privately, and I'll see about getting you an invite to a camp."

One thing the change has really exposed me to is how much people will cling against all reason to something dated, traditional or dogmatic. Tragic.

And yes, I've heard my share both online and while physically speaking to people, about Paul Mills, how he 'isnt doing Kenpo anymore', how this isnt the same, that isn't the same, blah, blah, blah.

It's weird. IMO, its the best example of American Kenpo available. Now, I understand that's not gonna be everyone's opinion (I think it would be if they went to a few camps ) but to say it isn't American Kenpo is just dumb... I'm mean, just watch a brief clip of the man and it's obvious. I've seen Trejo and Chapel teach unique things.. are they not doing Kenpo? yea, right.

You mention the same thing that someone on that KN thread recently did, about violating the basic principles, concepts, etc. I agree. IMO, I think its very possible, to make a change and still keep the concepts, ideas, etc. I think much like when some people hear BJJ, they automatically think ground, likewise, when some people hear change, they automatically think that it means totally rewriting the moves and forgetting about the rest.

You know when one person can't do something, they think no one can? Or they can't conceive of how it could be possible? Most martial artists need to be taught. They can't harness and synthesize principles and techniques from various styes with any real continuity. Thus no one can. Rather than look at what Mills (or any other innovator) has done, it's easier to just blow it off (especially when, if he is right, they might have to re-think some things, or start some things over).

Something my AKKI instructor use to do - we would get new students who were ranked in other styles. We would be working technique line, and he would say, "who has a technique from another style against this attack?" Someone would demonstrate, and then he would ask the class "what works in this technique?" then he would ask, "what principles does it violate, and how does it make the technique less effective or more risky?" And we would break it apart, and then "make it kenpo". Sometimes all the technique needed was application of better mechanics to "clean it up", but otherwise was a strong technique. Sometimes an angle or sequence needed to be changed or delete entirely because there was just too much wrong with it, it was too passive a movement, unneeded compound trapping, wasted motion, dead space or it left the attacker too many options etc. Doing this really built a very real understanding of Kenpo principles. Once that happened, you realized, the memorized sequence only mattered so much - the big picture was there. After that, I couldn't hardly communicate with the little picture guys. Caring about number of techniques or extensions and phases and all this other stuff was just silly. I know that sounds condescending, but it is what it is. That's why FMA's fit so well with the AKKI... its all about simple, direct, effective concepts. They don't care about anything else, and if you change a technique, no one cares, if it is simple, direct and effective. It just flows, just like AKKI kenpo.

 

[MJS]

I started at a Kenpo 2000 school. I was at a Tatum school for a while. Instructor was nice (No names or places need be mentioned).. Tatum moved well at seminars, and I learned some good stuff from them. But suffice it to say, I was very conditioned into the whole "If you make a change, you just don't understand the technique" way of thinking. I was sold on the x amount of techniques done this way is kenpo and anything else isn't.

Sorry for the delayed reply. Yeah, see, this is what I'm talking about...people get so bound by the techniques, its like nobody can think out of the box. "If the badguy does this, you do this, and then if he does this, you must respond with another preset, ie: graft." I disagre with that. My teacher disagrees with that. Oh well...to each their own I suppose.

I went to my AKKI school very reluctantly, but when I moved, its all there was anywhere near me. This turned out to be the biggest blessing in my martial arts journey. Mills is just so far beyond and in his own league compared to what I had experienced before. I don't say this to denigrate any other Kenpo associations or instructors. There are many talented and skilled guys out there, and many I've never seen who are probably awesome. I say it just to make the point that Mills is incredible. Not just his own ability, but his ability to teach, analyze, change and reorganize..... and yet many won't even look at it to find the things they could learn from him.

Isnt that a great feeling!! While I dont train at an AKKI school, this is the way that I felt about my current teacher. My skill level has gone up tenfold IMHO. I only wish that I had started training with him sooner than I did.

I've gotten to the point where, these days, I just say "If you really want to know and see the difference, contact me privately, and I'll see about getting you an invite to a camp."

AFAIK, the only AKKI school in CT has since closed. If it were still around, I'd probably be taking a peek.

One thing the change has really exposed me to is how much people will cling against all reason to something dated, traditional or dogmatic. Tragic.

I know.

It's weird. IMO, its the best example of American Kenpo available. Now, I understand that's not gonna be everyone's opinion (I think it would be if they went to a few camps ) but to say it isn't American Kenpo is just dumb... I'm mean, just watch a brief clip of the man and it's obvious. I've seen Trejo and Chapel teach unique things.. are they not doing Kenpo? yea, right.

Agreed.

You know when one person can't do something, they think no one can? Or they can't conceive of how it could be possible? Most martial artists need to be taught. They can't harness and synthesize principles and techniques from various styes with any real continuity. Thus no one can. Rather than look at what Mills (or any other innovator) has done, it's easier to just blow it off (especially when, if he is right, they might have to re-think some things, or start some things over).

Something my AKKI instructor use to do - we would get new students who were ranked in other styles. We would be working technique line, and he would say, "who has a technique from another style against this attack?" Someone would demonstrate, and then he would ask the class "what works in this technique?" then he would ask, "what principles does it violate, and how does it make the technique less effective or more risky?" And we would break it apart, and then "make it kenpo". Sometimes all the technique needed was application of better mechanics to "clean it up", but otherwise was a strong technique. Sometimes an angle or sequence needed to be changed or delete entirely because there was just too much wrong with it, it was too passive a movement, unneeded compound trapping, wasted motion, dead space or it left the attacker too many options etc. Doing this really built a very real understanding of Kenpo principles. Once that happened, you realized, the memorized sequence only mattered so much - the big picture was there. After that, I couldn't hardly communicate with the little picture guys. Caring about number of techniques or extensions and phases and all this other stuff was just silly. I know that sounds condescending, but it is what it is. That's why FMA's fit so well with the AKKI... its all about simple, direct, effective concepts. They don't care about anything else, and if you change a technique, no one cares, if it is simple, direct and effective. It just flows, just like AKKI kenpo.

Couldn't agree more. IMO, the techs are there for a foundation and to show that you can demonstrate the required material. But I am constantly telling my students to not get so wrapped up in them. Yeah, I'm sure that other teachers at the school would disagree and thats fine. My goal is to teach them how to defend themselves. Sadly, they've been stuck in that rut, probably due to the way others have taught them. Nothing against the other teachers, as I think that we're both trying to get to the same end result. Difference being, one of us will probably get there a bit quicker. LOL.

When I teach my classes, I"m not concerned with teaching them something new all the time. Yeah, I understand its important, but, whats more important, is that they really know the things they know, inside and out. Its amazing what you can find to work on, with just 1 technique. LOL.

And yes, the FMAs blend very well IMO, with Kenpo.

IMO, I dont think that Parker wanted a bunch of robots. Then again, maybe he did. Sadly I never had the chance to meet the man. I think that without changing things, updating and 'supercharging' things, the art will stay stagnant and eventually die.

 

[Inkspill]

correct basics, logical application and use of principles.

 

[Twin Fist]

To my way of thinking, Kenpo isnt about a core set of techniques, it is about a set of ideas and principals,

the techniques are tools to teach those ideas and principals,

any technique is a good one if it follows the ideas and teaches them.

BUT

there is such a thing as bad kenpo, we have all seen it, and there are some styles that are better or worse than others, and of course, some people teaching that havnt bothered to learn yet.....

so, apply this simple test:
are the basics good?
does it flow?
power?
speed?
logical weapon/target pairing?
effective?
realistic?

I say anything that meets these requirements is pretty good kenpo

my opinion? i know what i like when i see it

 

[ATACX GYM]

If I COULD corner the market on Kenpo...I WOULDN'T.Know why? Imho Kenpo is an ever growing,ever dynamic art which is many times more magnificent than whatever my mere brain can come up with.On top of that? IT'S NOT MINE IT'S OURS.I wouldn't exclude the ideas experiences etc. of the other 30 million or so martial artists worldwide just so I could acquire financial gajillions.I want to contribute to Kenpo's growth.I want to learn as much as my brain heart and soul can stand,I want to reap the rewards of the wisdom of others. I want to rigorously debate with keen intellects and energetically stamp out the craptasticness in Kenpo.I'm engaged in those acts in my own little way...and I'm more than happy with that.